How would you improve Xenon?

[LameFox]

We've had many threads (here and everywhere else) on what's going wrong with the Xenon lately. So now here's one about what might resolve it. How would you improve their staying power as a faction?


Personally, I would start with some SE behavioural tweaks:

-SEs should not get dragged into fights. Ever. They just don't have the equipment or stats for this. If attacked they should either go on their way or flee depending on the strength of the attacker.
-SEs should not attempt to supply stations actively under attack. This is probably a bit more work, since to my knowledge no such system currently exists. But based on my observation, Xenon lose way too many of these as they ferry wares to stations under siege. Some kind of post-attack cooldown might help to alleviate these casualties.

Also, it might be a good time to reconsider Xenon fleet composition. Their standard fleet of 1 I, 2 K's, plus escorts, is not as formidable in the current economy when you have factions like HOP and TEL fielding groups of 12-14 destroyers. Especially as destroyers themselves slowly begin to show some competence. Presumably it will only get worse the more those start actually firing the main guns most of their damage is tied up in. Perhaps some E variants of K and I would be interesting here. And what ever happened to the J? Xenon field a fair number of small and medium ships, but there's no support for those in the field.

[MKL81]

Some quick thoughts:

• change logic to OOS calculations to increase turret chance for hit for sure, possible other modifiers; Reason - the outcome of OOS vs IS encounters with Xenon is night and day difference. OSS heavily disfavors Xenon.
• increase the number of "patrol jobs" for Xenon to have have more local patrols for Xenon, increase the ship count in patrol fleets to include at least 2 Is, 4-7 Ks and smaller craft in bigger numbers; Reason - with current economy other faction are easily able to field attack fleets consisting of 5-10 destroyers along with S/M ships that obliterate any Xenon I or multiple Ks.
• add "defend station" fleets for Xenon Wharf and Shipyard; Reason - Xenon stations are effectively defenseless, their range is not enough to be a threat to Destroyers of other factions, even if you account for "artificial stupidity" of destroyers. Some will prevail and will eventually destroy the station, oftentimes unbothered. Alternatively - adapt "position defense" game mechanic for Xenon to use, where they could respond to threats in the sectors for stations being under attack.
• rework the trader/miner logic to prioritize activity in closest sector(s) instead reinforcing other Xenon pockets or mining 5 sectors away. Reason - Xenon SE die in mass quantities, being killed by other factions outside of Xenon sectors, this is often causing slow starvation for Wharfs and Shipyards. I imagine this might actually require more work that other ideas.

[jlehtone]

• add "defend station" fleets for Xenon Wharf and Shipyard

and for Xenon SPP. Minerals can be harvested but without source of energy they are dead in the void.

[vkerinav]

Regarding SEs, it might help if their logic restricted them to local duties if their sector/region health is below a certain point. By health I mean; do they have sufficient SEs for efficient restocking of shipyards, what are the resource levels at the shipyards, and are local defense jobs in good condition? At that point, they could start supporting other regions, but otherwise they're wasting resources to their own detriment. I definitely agree that SEs should aggressively avoid combat.

[MKL81]

• add "defend station" fleets for Xenon Wharf and Shipyard

and for Xenon SPP. Minerals can be harvested but without source of energy they are dead in the void.

In general, I think Xenon build too few of SPPs. They build 1-2 of them for each "tribe" and call it a day. Then enemy fleet enters the chat and "few moments later" meme - Xenon have their EC economy down by 50%.

[PersonyPerson]

Never seen a Xenon cluster die out on it's own because it ran out of energy cells. It's not the ware that's the cause of shortages in ship production and station construction. It's primarily Ore and Silicon. Mostly Ore.

[Blaze1st]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I only really have my current game to go on which was started just before 7.5, but Xenon seem to follow a pattern of building up a gate swarm then sending it off to attack without leaving anything to defend with in their wake.

This means a well timed intervention just after a swarm has left has a good chance of wrecking the system easily.

Perhaps making them always keep a swarm on their gates and then then double it up to send out only half would work better for them?

[adeine]

Easy 'fixes':

• XEN desperately need L mining ships/transports, and these ships need to be set to 'flee' from any combat engagements
• Defence stations/modules need to be fixed so they can do more than just delay
• Any completed XEN station module could spawn 'mass traffic' mining drones that can mine in the same sector the station is in. A large part of the problem is Xenon suiciding all their miners, and thus starving out rapidly. This way they'd have some additional guaranteed trickle of resources coming in to help replenish, which works with their lore and isn't completely cheated out of nowhere.
• Add more XEN clusters to some of the new sectors and increase the jobs quota. DLCs/patches have successively added more sectors and hostile-to-XEN factions while XEN have not been reinforced in any meaningful way.

More difficult improvements:

• Improve faction AI dealing with disjointed territories. XEN should not try to reinforce one area from another if doing so is suicidal. It's better to write off a XEN cluster than suiciding all ships and miners on an odyssey through the Community of Planets

[grapedog]

I feel like they lose mining ships like crazy... do they leave because they need or want better resources? Perhaps balance their sectors a bit more in their favor so they don't have to lose as many miners, which is also a reward for clearing those sectors out.

they have said multiple times that small changes to the input for Xenon result in very large differences in what the expected output is.

I would still personally like a simple slider that I could adjust at any time to ramp up their difficulty...like leave it low in the beginning, but once I'm going with a few basic stations, ramp em up a little and then come to the rescue of the universe.

[LameFox]

XEN desperately need L mining ships/transports, and these ships need to be set to 'flee' from any combat engagements

I like this one too. They've always been a bit fragile to any attacks on a wharf, having no other source of economic ships.

[vvvvvvvv]

We've had many threads (here and everywhere else) on what's going wrong with the Xenon lately. So now here's one about what might resolve it. How would you improve their staying power as a faction?

* Give them mk2-3 equipment. Shields, engines, weapons. Currently they're quite weak compared to everything else. Like Xenon B is visually amazing, but you can't really fly it because even if you purple mod it, it is inferior to many things.
* Allow H to mine. Just drones, without turrets.
* When faction is threatened, make them produce modded ships. I'm surely Purple modded K will give even strong players a pause.
* Add some mega ship. Could be Xenon Q, could be Xenon Y, whatever. Something monstrously strong that threatens entire sectors.
* Few deadly weapons would be nice. Graviton turrets used to be scary, until player received many much longer range weapon. How about some sort of 20 km range railgun. Perhaps, slowly turning and slowly reloading, and immensely powerful.
* A mechanic to revive Xenon when theyr'e extinct. There's Deep Space Xenon mod, something like that. They're probably present in huge number between stars and outside of gate network, meaning they can deploy into the system.
* Xenon-exclusive sectors. Maybe something like Tharka on steroids --> anomalies which prevent normal building but not xenon building. Or something akin to Maelstrom from X Rebirth. Vast xenon-infested regions, where you aren't meant to be. They could be encircling entire map for all I know. That ties in with "exploration" requests. The game is lacking no man's land regions right now and feeling of wonder when you explore those.

That's how I see it.

[LameFox]

* Few deadly weapons would be nice. Graviton turrets used to be scary, until player received many much longer range weapon. How about some sort of 20 km range railgun. Perhaps, slowly turning and slowly reloading, and immensely powerful.
* A mechanic to revive Xenon when theyr'e extinct. There's Deep Space Xenon mod, something like that. They're probably present in huge number between stars and outside of gate network, meaning they can deploy into the system.

These I have wanted for a while as well. Not any specific new equipment but in general I feel their reliance on gravitons as one exclusive gimmick makes them boring as a faction.

And of course, some way to restore them to saves that have lost them would generally just reduce the chances of ending up with a very dull universe by accident, especially if you take the Yaki plot suggestion to wipe them out of the one place they are strongest.

[MKL81]

* When faction is threatened, make them produce modded ships. I'm surely Purple modded K will give even strong players a pause.

I somewhat remember that there was some game modification that does something similar. As the game progress, it ads more and more modded Xenon ships. Was it one of the Deadair scripts? Never used it myself, though.

[Targ Collective]

Economy tiering. Infrastructure ships must pay for the core sectors first if there are resources in them. Then they pay for invasion fleets and sector takeovers if the core sectors are in profit. Aggressive use of infrastructure ships to ensure that the economy is always in profit.

Disconnected Xenon sectors will typically try to optimise as separate economies until they can reconnect so they won't lose infrastructure ships as much, but if they can afford to gamble they will certainly try to link up at range.

Fleet optimisation. Xenon will build large numbers of capital ships but they will typically be defending their core sectors. From time to time they will send large numbers of capital vessels to try and exterminate the Community of Planets.

Difficulty within reach. The Xenon, because of the tendency to heavily fortify their space, would be difficult to take sectors from and would take sectors and hold them well. But if they tip the balance too far against a faction then they will face much aggression from the NPC factions who will set their differences aside against the machine menace. If the player does nothing then the Xenon will wear them down. But the internal 'The Xenon go nuts and try to take everything over' clock would not activate unless the player has the ability to fight back and a certain amount of ingame time has passed. If the player plays poorly (maybe learning for the first time) then punishing inactivity is Not Fun. Tides for effect as territories shift, but if the player plays well then the Xenon become a flood.

Nota Bene: It may be necessary to give the Xenon configurable difficulty. "Defends Core Sectors", "Pushes Boundaries", "Von-Neumann Nightmare".

[vvvvvvvv]

* When faction is threatened, make them produce modded ships. I'm surely Purple modded K will give even strong players a pause.

I somewhat remember that there was some game modification that does something similar. As the game progress, it ads more and more modded Xenon ships. Was it one of the Deadair scripts? Never used it myself, though.

Reemergence, probably.

[moako]

We've had many threads (here and everywhere else) on what's going wrong with the Xenon lately. So now here's one about what might resolve it. How would you improve their staying power as a faction?

* Give them mk2-3 equipment. Shields, engines, weapons. Currently they're quite weak compared to everything else. Like Xenon B is visually amazing, but you can't really fly it because even if you purple mod it, it is inferior to many things.
* Allow H to mine. Just drones, without turrets.
* When faction is threatened, make them produce modded ships. I'm surely Purple modded K will give even strong players a pause.
* Add some mega ship. Could be Xenon Q, could be Xenon Y, whatever. Something monstrously strong that threatens entire sectors.
* Few deadly weapons would be nice. Graviton turrets used to be scary, until player received many much longer range weapon. How about some sort of 20 km range railgun. Perhaps, slowly turning and slowly reloading, and immensely powerful.

I really hope that this will not be the future of X4. Such changes leads not to a better balance of the game. I could read much better ideas how to improve X4.
What X4 needs is a more logical behavior of NPC's.

We've had many threads (here and everywhere else) on what's going wrong with the Xenon lately. So now here's one about what might resolve it. How would you improve their staying power as a faction?

* A mechanic to revive Xenon when theyr'e extinct. There's Deep Space Xenon mod, something like that. They're probably present in huge number between stars and outside of gate network, meaning they can deploy into the system.
* Xenon-exclusive sectors. Maybe something like Tharka on steroids --> anomalies which prevent normal building but not xenon building. Or something akin to Maelstrom from X Rebirth. Vast xenon-infested regions, where you aren't meant to be. They could be encircling entire map for all I know. That ties in with "exploration" requests. The game is lacking no man's land regions right now and feeling of wonder when you explore those.

Why not. I like this idea. But why only when they are extinct?
And why only for Xenon?

[LameFox]

With a few exceptions (Yaki maybe) no new mechanic is needed to revive other extinct factions. It can already happen passively (neutral AI rebuilds them) or as an active choice by the player (storing a few defence platform build missions and using them to donate a wharf/shipyard).

[vvvvvvvv]

I really hope that this will not be the future of X4. Such changes leads not to a better balance of the game

In my opinion balance firmly belongs to multiplayer games. Because the idea is that everybody should have a chance except there's no reason for that to be true. A better idea is to have tiers for playable entities. Stronger entities that are easier to play, and weaker that are harder to play.

As for logical behavior, xenon are self-evolving tireless machines that were improving themselves for 800 years. It is a hyperefficient paperclip maximizer that, compared to the player had a several centuries long headstart. By now they should be superior to all factions sans Sohnen. But that's not the case. Their ships are subpar. The player is able to annihilate all Xenon in something like 10 days, maybe faster, regardless of the starting state. The question arises, what were all those factions that are supposed to be stornger than the player, doing all that time and why couldn't they do it themselves, if their enemy is this weak. That doesn't mean that xenon should steamroll the map, but upping their difficulty would be great. Xenon I shouldn't become a small inconvenience, like it happens now.

Regarding "logical behavior", logical behavior does not necessarily translate into interesting gameplay. Challenging things are interesting, however.

So, yes, better shields, weapons, engines. Things that would give me a pause, make me think. Do keep in mind that player can use xenon tech. A terrifying opponent becomes a reward if you can can capture the ship in question.

Why not. I like this idea. But why only when they are extinct?
And why only for Xenon?

Because xenon have no allies and if you wipe them out, they end up as a zombie faction. Build sites keep spawning but are never built to completion.

[moako]

I really hope that this will not be the future of X4. Such changes leads not to a better balance of the game

As for logical behavior, xenon are self-evolving tireless machines that were improving themselves for 800 years. It is a hyperefficient paperclip maximizer that, compared to the player had a several centuries long headstart. By now they should be superior to all factions sans Sohnen. But that's not the case. Their ships are subpar. The player is able to annihilate all Xenon in something like 10 days, maybe faster, regardless of the starting state. The question arises, what were all those factions that are supposed to be stornger than the player, doing all that time and why couldn't they do it themselves, if their enemy is this weak. That doesn't mean that xenon should steamroll the map, but upping their difficulty would be great. Xenon I shouldn't become a small inconvenience, like it happens now.

Fair enough. You made your point and I agree.
But first of all a better behaviour of the NPCs helps much more than again a change of weapons systems.

Regarding "logical behavior", logical behavior does not necessarily translate into interesting gameplay. Challenging things are interesting, however.

Of course it is also about challenging but if the NPCs behaviour is obvisiouly stupid than it's getting annoying.
It depends also on the game itself and for X4 a logical behaviour is important.

Why not. I like this idea. But why only when they are extinct?
And why only for Xenon?

Because xenon have no allies and if you wipe them out, they end up as a zombie faction. Build sites keep spawning but are never built to completion.

That isn't what I meant.
I mean that the gameplay would be more interesting and challenging if all the fractions would build more "between the stars" as you have worded.
Also I would like to see if more of the ressorces would be further outside and not centered in the systems(So close to the gates).
I mean the gates exists for over 800 years and there are still so many ressorces available so close to the gates?

[vvvvvvvv]

I mean that the gameplay would be more interesting and challenging if all the fractions would build more "between the stars" as you have worded.
Also I would like to see if more of the ressorces would be further outside and not centered in the systems(So close to the gates).
I mean the gates exists for over 800 years and there are still so many ressorces available so close to the gates?

Other factions cannot build between the stars because they're not Xenon.

Factiosn in the game lack means of FTL travel and travel at sublight speed between gates. To put it into perspective, the closest star to us is Alpha Centauri, that 4.22 Ly away, that's roughly (rounded) 40 000 000 000 000 kilometers, and at maximum game speed of 25 km/s it'll take about 50 thousand years to get there. And halfway during the trip, there will be just nothing. Empty void and no light.

In the game, the gates were a poisoned gift. Too convenient to use, free travel, until they stop working and another Dark happens. Jumpdrive tech, when it existed (Rebirth), was still tied to gate network and could not jump outside of it. In Rebirth it was possible to target a beacon, but the beacon had to be placed by someone. The cherry on top is that they somehow managed to lose even this tech. Several times, even. FTL outside of gate network is certainly possible, as demonstrated by Khaak, but all races lack the technology.

Xenon are different. Robots do not care that they lack jumpdrive, that it will take decades or a century, they simply fly from one star to another, slowly expanding. At the target system, the machines will replicate and send innumerable probes to the next batch of stars. The process will repeat, with number of infected systems growing in geometry progression. For example, if a cycle takes 50 years and each probe "infects" 10 more stars, then in 800 years they'd potentially cover 10 quadrillion (10^16) systems, which is more than we have in the galaxy. Xenon are able to traverse gate network. So even if they haven't discovered FTL, they can be present in a several hundred lightyear bubble around every system that has ever been connected to the gate network, including gate networks unknown to commonwealth races.

My personal opinion is that if this setup was played straight, Xenon would've wiped out all races entirely. Because "the machine is immortal". A large xenon swarm could result in networked superintelligence, which would then end up in runaway self-improvement, which would be then cracking law of physics, and then there will be technological progress gap which would be impossible to cover. And all races would die. Egosoft, however, is unlikely to implement this sort of thing, because it is "downer ending" with no counter play. It is possible to play around it, and, for example, the superintelligence, if it emerged, found something more fun to do and left. And commonwealth races are dealing with broken glitchy rejects. Those rejects can still inhabit huge bubble around all gate network systems, and that's the explanation of "xenon from between stars" appearing. Other factions cannot do this. They lack FTL travel.

That's why "Between the stars" mechanic doesn't fit other factions. They don't need it, because they have planets. Like Boron homeworld, if Borons lose all their spaceships, can launch more ships from surface. That's where, I assume, the new shipyards come from, when faction is destroyed.

---

Anyway.

If we ignore lore and focus on gameplay angle, then:

* Giving xenon stronger equipment tier is low hanging fruit. Relatively cheap to implement which will make them more challenging.
* Making a huge ship for Xenon is higher difficulty, because someone will have to at least model this whole thing.
* While I would prefer to have travel outside of gates, planets that move, orbits and so on... the game in its current state does not seem to be made for this. And relies on graph-like structure where planets are artistic vision and background props. Challenging this would require a lot of effort... which is why it probably won't be done.

My proposals aim at things that are should be achievable.