How about a boost gauge separate from shields? Or a mod for this...

[Ragnos28]

And now missiles have a use...

Missiles are very very slow, they can't catch fighters at normal speed, let alone with boost. Plus, if you use them for turrets, they are a logistical nightmare. Did you see how long it takes for a destroyer to dock at an aux ship?

Just because a Xenon can boost away does not give them invincibility. This adds options, tactics and techniques. Depth, as others would say.

Ok...what tactic do I use to catch a xenon S/M that can boost indefinitely? And no, missiles don't work, not w/o a huge increase in speed.
Would be like trying to catch a xenon M with a Baracuda.

And more depth is good.

I can't agree with more depth that mess up my means of dealing with hostiles. Would be fun for you, but from what I see, it would ruin my game.

[flywlyx]

Not to mention separating boost from shields would allow AI to be yet again more liberal with boost usage, to pull more diverse manouvers and provide little more challenge for player.

No, it won't. If the boost gauge is separate, the fighter who uses it first will be at a tactical disadvantage, meaning all the player has to do is use it later than the AI. Adding another resource doesn’t necessarily make the game more challenging.

In my opinion, Egosoft should prioritize fixing their AI first before focusing on making their games more challenging.

[GCU Grey Area]

For me it's simply that boost without any immediate negative consequences removes a lot of challenge from the game - any time anything goes wrong hit the boost & leave all your problems behind. Find that sort of thing uninteresting. I do however also very much enjoy high speed combat with lots of boosting around. To resolve this dilemma ended up having to mod the mods which added boosters to earlier X games, so they'd only use shields to power the boosters (found any other fuel source took all the fun out of boosters). Damn glad that boosters in X4 operate that way by default.

[vvvvvvvv]

Right now, having the boost tide to the shield, mean that boost is a limited resource. If I go against an AI opponent, I know that if I take away its shield, it will no longer boost. That concept work in S/M vs S/M and turrets vs S/M ships. Now, if boost became something that can just be spamed w/o any limiting factor, well...I can imagine the reeeee on forums, when the player will not be able to catch xenon fighters, because they would just boost away, and good luck trying to kill S/M ships with turrets, because the targets will boost away as soon as they take dmg, and you cannot even hope to stop the boosting by damaging the shield. Just try to take out a xenon PE with non-beam turrets, to see what I mean.

The issue with hypothetical scenarios is that they usually support beliefs of the one presenting those hypothetical scenario.

You can have separate gauges and have boost regenerate at quarter of current speed. Current implementation does not feel to me as a fun mechanic that presents tactical choices. And speaking of turrets, non-laser turrets rarely hit anything, which is default go-to turret is terran L beam + flak. Flak also rarely hits anything, but AOE helps.

Ok...what tactic do I use to catch a xenon S/M that can boost indefinitely?

At the moment, all ships in the game follow the same attack pattern. Once you start combat, they'll charge at you, fly away, return, charge again. "Space jostling". It doesn't matter how fast the ship can go, because once combat has started, you can shoot it "in the face". I can certainly say that I never in the whole game tried to drain shield to stop boost. I drained shields to blow things up.

Xenon S/M won't be able to boost indefinitely. To catch up, boost to match or engage travel drive and match speed manually. Then aim in shoot. With boost not being tied to shields maybe fights would finally become more interesting.

For me it's simply that boost without any immediate negative consequences removes a lot of challenge from the game - any time anything goes wrong hit the boost & leave all your problems behind. Find that sort of thing uninteresting. I do however also very much enjoy high speed combat with lots of boosting around. To resolve this dilemma ended up having to mod the mods which added boosters to earlier X games, so they'd only use shields to power the boosters (found any other fuel source took all the fun out of boosters). Damn glad that boosters in X4 operate that way by default.

The negative consequence would be not being able to boost again. See Elite Dangerous.

[Mr_Blastman]

And now missiles have a use...

Missiles are very very slow, they can't catch fighters at normal speed, let alone with boost. Plus, if you use them for turrets, they are a logistical nightmare. Did you see how long it takes for a destroyer to dock at an aux ship?

Just because a Xenon can boost away does not give them invincibility. This adds options, tactics and techniques. Depth, as others would say.

Ok...what tactic do I use to catch a xenon S/M that can boost indefinitely? And no, missiles don't work, not w/o a huge increase in speed.
Would be like trying to catch a xenon M with a Baracuda.

And more depth is good.

I can't agree with more depth that mess up my means of dealing with hostiles. Would be fun for you, but from what I see, it would ruin my game.

So don't chase the S/Ms that run? They'll come back, eventually.

If they do run then your turrets accomplished their goal.

[GCU Grey Area]

The negative consequence would be not being able to boost again. See Elite Dangerous.

No thanks, played the first 2 Elites but they lost me as a customer when they made ED multiplayer. Not keen on the idea of boosters that can only be used once anyway - did you miss the part where I mentioned I like high speed combat with lots of boosting around? Shield draining boosters are ideal for me. Need to keep a careful eye on my shield strength & choose the right moments to use them, but that still means I can use them a hell of a lot in most fights (particularly fond of boost-launching torpedoes). Boosters that only work once is really not my idea of fun at all.

[Ragnos28]

So don't chase the S/Ms that run? They'll come back, eventually.

If they do run then your turrets accomplished their goal.

Right now, I can deny boost for hostiles, by striping shields. For example, I use for interceptor Eclipses a loadout of 2 bolt +2 ion blaster. Ion blaster only dmg shields, and I use them because, no shield mean no boost for the enemy. I don't want hostiles to boost, I want them slow, so I or my forces can kill them.

The goal of my turrets is to kill hostiles. You see, one of most annoying effects small craft firing at a capital ship, is that they prevent travel drive. I don't want my capitals to travel at snail speed, because a single xenon N, fire a few shots, boost away, fire a few shots, boost away, and so on, w/o any way for me to prevent it.

In short, what you are proposing takes away my ability to prevent the enemy from using boost.

[vvvvvvvv]

No thanks, played the first 2 Elites but they lost me as a customer when they made ED multiplayer. Not keen on the idea of boosters that can only be used once anyway - did you miss the part where I mentioned I like high speed combat with lots of boosting around?

It is not "boost just once", it is that separate gauges allow you to decide when you use it, which gives more flexibility and allows multiple strategies. You can save boost to try to run away, or use it for maneuver, then you can mess up and then due to lack of boost you'll have shields blown up.

Using the same gauge for both limits your options. If enemies wipe your shilds, chances are you're looking at a reload. And reload times right now are not great.

Elite, despite huge number of flaws, nailed combat. Shootouts in RES sites are fun. Now, obviously, in its infinite wisdom, Elite went out of this way to mess up combat as much possible and to ensure that the player spends most of the time outside of it. But the asteroid field shootouts are not bad and I do not quite feel the same about x4 combat. It suffers from sameness.

Right now, I can deny boost for hostiles, by striping shields. For example,

Rather than propose to remove it, I'm not seeing value in current implementation. In all the time I spent playing x4 I never felt a need to deny boost to anything, as combat is mostly resolved through correct choice of loadout. Rather than relying on current implementation, it would be more interesting to get new weapons with similar effects. EMP missile is a thing. Boron slowdown guns also are a thing.

[LameFox]

If you assume boost would be infinite were it not tied to shields then you and your assets would also have infinite boost to pursue with. Not sure why this leads to the assumption you'd never kill anything.

Not that it would be infinite, because that makes no sense to do, and there's no serious reason to even consider such a case when other games have long handled boosting without needing it tied to shields.

[Ragnos28]

Right now, I can deny boost for hostiles, by striping shields. For example,

Rather than propose to remove it, I'm not seeing value in current implementation. In all the time I spent playing x4 I never felt a need to deny boost to anything, as combat is mostly resolved through correct choice of loadout. Rather than relying on current implementation, it would be more interesting to get new weapons with similar effects. EMP missile is a thing. Boron slowdown guns also are a thing.

Well, we don't all play X4 in the same way, I for example, at this stage in the game, I'm too far removed from flying ships myself, at most I take control of my fleets flagship carrier, if I want to pass through gates faster.
So, I would prefer for someone to make a mod for this boost gauge separate from shields, in order to not modify the game for everyone, just because it would be more interesting for some players.

[Mr_Blastman]

So don't chase the S/Ms that run? They'll come back, eventually.

If they do run then your turrets accomplished their goal.

Right now, I can deny boost for hostiles, by striping shields. For example, I use for interceptor Eclipses a loadout of 2 bolt +2 ion blaster. Ion blaster only dmg shields, and I use them because, no shield mean no boost for the enemy. I don't want hostiles to boost, I want them slow, so I or my forces can kill them.

The goal of my turrets is to kill hostiles. You see, one of most annoying effects small craft firing at a capital ship, is that they prevent travel drive. I don't want my capitals to travel at snail speed, because a single xenon N, fire a few shots, boost away, fire a few shots, boost away, and so on, w/o any way for me to prevent it.

In short, what you are proposing takes away my ability to prevent the enemy from using boost.

If your capital ship is having this issue, why not deploy some fighter craft to deal with this nuisance?

[Ragnos28]

If your capital ship is having this issue, why not deploy some fighter craft to deal with this nuisance?

Because there are situations that negate your fighter/M ship interceptor cover, like station sieging. It is common knowledge that you cannot have fighters/M ships near hostile stations because of their tendency to chase drones under the turrets of the station, and subsequently die to them. This is what I mean: https://youtu.be/0P9_asVbcVc?t=352
So, destroyers while sieging stations are on their own, and are dependendant on what they have on board, like turrets and laser towers, like so: https://youtu.be/xuW34ryK7rc?t=2446

[jlehtone]

So, I would prefer for someone to make a mod for this boost gauge separate from shields, in order to not modify the game for everyone, just because it would be more interesting for some players.

In other words, the first question is: is it possible to implement a second "afterburner" via S&M?
That is for the other Forum.

[vvvvvvvv]

I for example, at this stage in the game, I'm too far removed from flying ships myself,

That implies you aren't even using the mechanic you defend.

[Submarine]

Boost is a new mechanic in X4 ...

Partially new. (The AI using it is definitely new.)

Xbtf had boost/turbo/afterburner. Pressing 'Tab' did accelerate above normal cruise speed. Temporarily.

In X2 the 'Tab' did simply go to max cruise speed. Third-party script -- Fusion-Injector (formerly Tuning Kit Mk1) -- did boost above. It did consume a Spacefly (or ECells).

The X3R had likewise third-party script -- Afterburner -- that did use Spacefly or ECells.
The X3TC/AP version of the script -- Turbo Boost -- that did use Spacefly or ECells, or lacking those: energy from shields.
These scripts had limits on how long burns were possible and how long cooldown between burns was needed.

In other words, the X2 and X3 did not have boost, but the idea to resort to shields did pop up before X4 -- about 15 years ago.
...

Thanks for the interesting context.

It seems fair to say speed boost from shield was once available as a mod and maybe this explains where egosoft got the idea.

Though when a dev adds a mechanic, it is a very different proposition from a mod. Modders can do what they feel like and the player has responsibility for using the mod. Devs are justified in declining to support mods and ignoring bug reports complicated by mods.

Once a mechanic is included, it is not justified to treat it like a mod any more and the mechanic ought to be fully supported and integrated.

egosoft have neither integrated boost into AI and controls for playability, nor exposed it to modders. Noone but egosoft can fix boost but it has been starved of attention as if it fell between two stools, neither a mod nor a fully integrated X4 mechanic.

[Scoob]

Shields for boost has always been contentious. As a player we can anticipate situations and do things an AI pilot would never consider. However, every single ship in the game, bar ONE at most is piloted by an AI.

AI Controlled ships - especially fighters - often die for one reason. Stupidity. The sequence of events that lead to a Fighter death usually go as follows:

- Ship hit, goes evasive - Pilot level makes a difference here - might use boost if plenty of shields. Pretty effective.
- Ship gets hit a lot, goes evasive but has no shields for boost. Might get lucky if not alone and there's a single attacker.
- Ship get a "critical" hit, and now it needs to get out of there & repair. It then STOPS DEAD while it decides which direction it needs to fly in next. Dead.

This is a Fighter reporting to a Carrier or Station with full repair and rearm capabilities, so has the best chance possible to live.

Now imagine this scenario if boost was a separate resource. No shields, knackered hull - boost and evade. That "screw you guys, I'm going home" back for repairs moment transition still needs to be smoother though. Being able to boost in that damaged state though would certainly aid survival chance.

Many of us have been asking for changes to this forever. I myself proposed ages ago - as likely did others - that perhaps draining the weapon capacitor's energy for boost would be better, if that's easier to implement. However, ideally, a separate boost capacitor would be the perfect solution. Doubtless frustrating for the Player pilot when attempting to destroy an enemy ship, but why shouldn't an AI Pilot try to live using all the tools at their disposal.

Separate boost energy would have a very interesting effect on combat. No more "your shields are gone, you're dead" which is often how a fight goes. I tend to move past the "I'm a fighter pilot" stage of the game quite quickly, letting my AI-Controlled ships do the work. It can be GREAT fun piloting a ship myself, but the current boost mechanic takes a lot away from that. Once shields are down, the player is pretty vulnerable - but can do manoeuvres an AI cannot, so have a somewhat better chance - but an AI pilot is basically toast, if the attacker is remotely competent.

Note: Via modding it's possible to change Boost behaviour, so it drains the shields less - or possible not at all if a value can be set to zero. However, it still needs some shield left to work at all. Vanilla's recharge delay hurts this further.

[Ragnos28]

I for example, at this stage in the game, I'm too far removed from flying ships myself,

That implies you aren't even using the mechanic you defend.

I do not, but my AI controled assets do.
So, I need the current boost mechanic to exist, to maintain the effectivness of my interceptors and turrets. Then for, I will always oppose a course of action that have the potential to ruin MY instance of X4.
In any pull that suggest a change of that, I will always vote the NO option.

[vvvvvvvv]

I do not, but my AI controled assets do.
So, I need the current boost mechanic to exist, to maintain the effectivness of my interceptors and turrets. Then for, I will always oppose a course of action that have the potential to ruin MY instance of X4.
In any pull that suggest a change of that, I will always vote the NO option.

... AI controlled assets primarily use boost to commit suicide by draining shields, or to overshoot combat area by hundred kilometers if the boost is strong. Because AI appears to be firing it for fixed duration while disregarding distance. All turrets that fire projectiles with travel times almost always miss small ships during IS combat, boost or no boost. While the turrets fire at empty space, small ships fly with full shields with boost fully available. Because AI always attack in the same pattern (charge --> attack --> flee) it'll be facing the turrets during an attack phase, inevitably.

From that it follows that you actually do not benefit from "boost denial", do not even use it and do not need this mechanic to exist. If you were using it personally, then I'd see the point, but you aren't using it, and AI is not clever enough to benefit from this. "Boost denial" almost never seem to occurs in AI combat.

I will not be discussing this angle further. Have fun.

[Ragnos28]

... AI controlled assets primarily use boost to commit suicide by draining shields, or to overshoot combat area by hundred kilometers if the boost is strong. Because AI appears to be firing it for fixed duration while disregarding distance.

The same can be said about the enemy AI, they also "commit suicide by draining shields". The convention is simple, no shields = no boost, is something that I can predict and prepare for, maybe have loudouts that target shields in particular. Now, if all forces could use boost w/o any impediment, a duel between a player AI fighter and a xenon M will last for hours, because if any shoots land, wee boost away, can't catch me...roadrunner
style.

All turrets that fire projectiles with travel times almost always miss small ships during IS combat, boost or no boost. What's more, because AI always attack in the same pattern (charge --> attack --> flee) it'll be facing the turrets during an attack phase, inevitably.

So, non beam turrets can't hit small craft flying at normal speed (maybe in your circumstances), but will be able to hit S ships with boost that I can't disrupt, by taking away the shields?

From that it follows that you actually do not benefit from "boost denial", do not even use it and do not need this mechanic to exist.

Thank you, I would never know what I need and I don't need w/o your precious input.

[GCU Grey Area]

It is not "boost just once", it is that separate gauges allow you to decide when you use it, which gives more flexibility and allows multiple strategies. You can save boost to try to run away, or use it for maneuver, then you can mess up and then due to lack of boost you'll have shields blown up.

Using the same gauge for both limits your options. If enemies wipe your shilds, chances are you're looking at a reload. And reload times right now are not great.

Find an opportunity cost far less compelling that having real & immediate consequences for using boosters. Thoroughly enjoy having to constantly evaluate whether the situation is one in which it's best to maintain shields or exchange some or all of them for a sudden burst of speed. As for reloading, most of the time it's not mandatory. Can usually just accept the loss of the ship & call in a new one (or teleport to it if that's been researched). Again, find having significant consequences for my mistakes adds greatly to my enjoyment of combat.

perhaps draining the weapon capacitor's energy for boost would be better, if that's easier to implement.

Would not be better for me. Most of the time I use boosters aggressively, to rapidly close the distance to an enemy ship, while minimising the amount of fire I take during that manoeuvre. This approach would no longer be viable if using boosters to get on the tail of an enemy meant that weapons could no longer fire.