How about a boost gauge separate from shields? Or a mod for this...

[Mr_Blastman]

After 700+ hours in X4, nothing drives me more nuts than the lack of a separate boost gauge system not tied to shields. I can deal with the AI and everything else because I love these games, however the lack of a separate boost function basically means if you are in a unmodded fighter at unmodded speeds and your shields run out in the thick of combat... you're dead. You can't escape. You can't evade. You're toast.

And this is a fatal flaw.

Because I'd love to fly as a fighter pilot alongside my fleets and crush the enemy, mercilessly. Sure, I can mod my ship to be twice as fast as everything else, and this works well, but early and mid game one does not have access to such a luxury. And early and mid game are where fighters are quite desirable for a player to fly.

So would it be possible for us to have a separate boost gauge? Or perhaps a player selectable option for one?

This boost gauge could be tied to:

a) A rechargeable energy pool from the ship's powerplant. When the gauge is charging, weapon cooldown will be lengthened because of the additional power draw. There's a downside when charging. Shields would also charge slower--since we don't have a power pip system like literally every other space game outside of Wing Commander.

b) A fuel system for boost and boost alone. When we run out of fuel... no more boosting until one docks at a station and refills their fuel.

Either one of them would fix the problem. The fuel system would need to ensure there's quite a bit of fuel reserves for a minute or two of boost--something equivalent to the fuel supplied in the original Wing Commander.

Both have their tradeoffs. Both could work.

Can Egosoft make this so?


If not, is creating a mod for this even possible? This would obviously require adding an additional HUD element to represent the available boost left/charging/etc. If fuel were used, that would also mean stations would need to sell the stuff.

I think option a) might fit better.

The best option would be option c), which means option a) + a power pip system. But that's not something I feel Egosoft is prioritizing. One can dream, perhaps... A Star Trek Klingon Academy level of ship management.

I digress.

How about that separate boost gauge, either from Egosoft directly, or possibly through a mod?

[jlehtone]

boost function basically means if you are in a unmodded fighter at unmodded speeds and your shields run out in the thick of combat... you're dead.

Yes. That is the point. You either learn to boost away before the shields run out or die.

Granted, I have flown Dragon Raider most of the time, not a fighter. And only 600+ hours of it without any tune-ups. I might thus miss the severity of the issue.

[GCU Grey Area]

boost function basically means if you are in a unmodded fighter at unmodded speeds and your shields run out in the thick of combat... you're dead.

Yes. That is the point. You either learn to boost away before the shields run out or die.

Agree with jlehtone - waiting until shields are almost depleted & trying to use boost to get out of the fight is a trap. Much better to use boost to evade shots in the first place. I use boost a LOT during combat, but generally not to run away. Instead I use it to minimise the amount of fire I take when approaching an enemy - i.e. boost to get on their tail & kill them ASAP, then boost away to take on the next one, & so on.

[TheDeliveryMan]

if you are familiar with your ship you know when to use boost and when not.

[Mr_Blastman]

boost function basically means if you are in a unmodded fighter at unmodded speeds and your shields run out in the thick of combat... you're dead.

Yes. That is the point. You either learn to boost away before the shields run out or die.

Granted, I have flown Dragon Raider most of the time, not a fighter. And only 600+ hours of it without any tune-ups. I might thus miss the severity of the issue.

A Dragon in stock game is fine enough, as it is double the speed of practically everything else. However, in mods such as VRO, you start finding medium and small ships with similar speeds and no major difference. When this happens you can be quickly ganged up on by multiple enemies and are dead in seconds. When your shields fall you're toast.

My extensive experience in all the major space combat games/sims over the years(going all the way back to Star Raiders and Starmaster...) tell me that tying shields to boost is a fatal flaw of the X series combat mechanics. This was also present in X3 as well.

Would be quite nice if we had an option, or deepening of the ship systems to allow boost to function differently, if the player chooses.

I can hot dog all day long in a Dragon or a Hydra, but I'd love to not have to take those purposefully fast ships to guarantee survival, and instead run the slower ones and count on boost when I need it.

[JasonX2000]

After 700+ hours in X4, nothing drives me more nuts than the lack of a separate boost gauge system not tied to shields. I can deal with the AI and everything else because I love these games, however the lack of a separate boost function basically means if you are in a unmodded fighter at unmodded speeds and your shields run out in the thick of combat... you're dead. You can't escape. You can't evade. You're toast.

And this is a fatal flaw.

Because I'd love to fly as a fighter pilot alongside my fleets and crush the enemy, mercilessly. Sure, I can mod my ship to be twice as fast as everything else, and this works well, but early and mid game one does not have access to such a luxury. And early and mid game are where fighters are quite desirable for a player to fly.

So would it be possible for us to have a separate boost gauge? Or perhaps a player selectable option for one?

This boost gauge could be tied to:

a) A rechargeable energy pool from the ship's powerplant. When the gauge is charging, weapon cooldown will be lengthened because of the additional power draw. There's a downside when charging. Shields would also charge slower--since we don't have a power pip system like literally every other space game outside of Wing Commander.

b) A fuel system for boost and boost alone. When we run out of fuel... no more boosting until one docks at a station and refills their fuel.

Either one of them would fix the problem. The fuel system would need to ensure there's quite a bit of fuel reserves for a minute or two of boost--something equivalent to the fuel supplied in the original Wing Commander.

Both have their tradeoffs. Both could work.

Can Egosoft make this so?


If not, is creating a mod for this even possible? This would obviously require adding an additional HUD element to represent the available boost left/charging/etc. If fuel were used, that would also mean stations would need to sell the stuff.

I think option a) might fit better.

The best option would be option c), which means option a) + a power pip system. But that's not something I feel Egosoft is prioritizing. One can dream, perhaps... A Star Trek Klingon Academy level of ship management.

I digress.

How about that separate boost gauge, either from Egosoft directly, or possibly through a mod?

I don't see a flaw in the system. Thats part of combat tactic to not attack mindless and let the boost run out your shield, or to attack a fleet that shreds your shield in 2 seconds to zero, so you don't have emergency energy left. You have to get the energy for the boost from somewhere. If we would revert to the energy system of X3 there would be the same outcome, because you would not have energy for shields if you boosted your energy to zero. (bad example, shields worked different in X3 but you had that with weapon energy and shields)

[mr.WHO]

"it's a game ballance" is a poor excuse for dated mechanics from as far past as X-BTF.

Having separate boots from Shields would simplify things for both player, AI and would also add new balance factors (e.g. different races having different boots paramenters, like capacity, recharge, power, acceleration, price etc.).

Egosoft should finally stop shooting themselves in the foot and make boost/shields separation so people would no longer nag about stupid AI boosting it shields away in combat.


Last, but most important - having boost tied to the shields is THE MOST STUPID THING EVER.

When do you need to boost? When you're in trouble.
When are you in trouble? When shields are low.
What can't you do when shields are low? Boost away to safety.

This simply breaks proper combat flow.

Not to mention separating boost from shields would allow AI to be yet again more liberal with boost usage, to pull more diverse manouvers and provide little more challenge for player.

[LameFox]

I've never liked this system, although my reason is not that it gets me killed but that it gets AI killed. I'm the only person in my game universe who can predict when is a good time to trade shields for speed, so it isn't an issue to my personal ship but on the balance of things, it seems like a weird mechanic to have. Save it for competitive pvp games where the choices are being made by players.

Anyway, I agree in some future game they should give consideration to a more unified energy/heat system for shields/weapons/engines. The current one is a shambles. Weapons on the front of the ship generate heat but don't use energy. Shields don't apparently generate heat or use energy, but can be eaten as a source of energy. Meanwhile engines don't generate heat or use energy except when they eat shields. Turrets don't generate heat or use energy. I can't deny it all feels like a bunch of unrelated, competing systems that would have felt much nicer and more meaningful as a unified thing. I think even the AI could—and maybe I'm giving too much credit here—be trained to flip a few pips between three priorities depending on its current goal. For instance sacrificing weapon energy for shields and engines when it needs to defensively boost, rather than trade one kind of defence for another when it doesn't know which it really needs.

[Submarine]

Boost is a new mechanic in X4 and needs special attention to make it work but has not had enough.

Personally I enjoyed using boost as a pilot but my wingmen were unreasonably bad at using it.

• AI is incompetent
• Balance uncertain due to AI incompetence
• Player fleet controls absent

IMHO egosoft need to either work on boost or they need to give it up because the half done feature is not going to work for anyone. Go large or go home.

[af_2017]

lack of a separate boost gauge system not tied to shields.

I agree here.
I don't like doing it but let's have a look at this from sane point of view and "lore".
So this is a future.
We can build space ships.
We know that there are enemies and potential combats.
Let's make our ships boost.
And let's bind it to shields.
Best idea ever!
And, yes, I am toxic.

[Mr_Blastman]

I don't see a flaw in the system. Thats part of combat tactic to not attack mindless and let the boost run out your shield, or to attack a fleet that shreds your shield in 2 seconds to zero, so you don't have emergency energy left. You have to get the energy for the boost from somewhere. If we would revert to the energy system of X3 there would be the same outcome, because you would not have energy for shields if you boosted your energy to zero. (bad example, shields worked different in X3 but you had that with weapon energy and shields)

I don't agree. One must consider how X4's AI tends to zerg opposition. What might start as a fight between one or two ships can quickly turn into a dozen pouncing on you due to how the highway system works. Boost using shields is a poor mechanic that detracts from deeper small ship gameplay.

[Mr_Blastman]

"it's a game ballance" is a poor excuse for dated mechanics from as far past as X-BTF.

Having separate boots from Shields would simplify things for both player, AI and would also add new balance factors (e.g. different races having different boots paramenters, like capacity, recharge, power, acceleration, price etc.).

Egosoft should finally stop shooting themselves in the foot and make boost/shields separation so people would no longer nag about stupid AI boosting it shields away in combat.


Last, but most important - having boost tied to the shields is THE MOST STUPID THING EVER.

When do you need to boost? When you're in trouble.
When are you in trouble? When shields are low.
What can't you do when shields are low? Boost away to safety.

This simply breaks proper combat flow.

Not to mention separating boost from shields would allow AI to be yet again more liberal with boost usage, to pull more diverse manouvers and provide little more challenge for player.

100%

[Mr_Blastman]

I've never liked this system, although my reason is not that it gets me killed but that it gets AI killed. I'm the only person in my game universe who can predict when is a good time to trade shields for speed, so it isn't an issue to my personal ship but on the balance of things, it seems like a weird mechanic to have. Save it for competitive pvp games where the choices are being made by players.

Anyway, I agree in some future game they should give consideration to a more unified energy/heat system for shields/weapons/engines. The current one is a shambles. Weapons on the front of the ship generate heat but don't use energy. Shields don't apparently generate heat or use energy, but can be eaten as a source of energy. Meanwhile engines don't generate heat or use energy except when they eat shields. Turrets don't generate heat or use energy. I can't deny it all feels like a bunch of unrelated, competing systems that would have felt much nicer and more meaningful as a unified thing. I think even the AI could—and maybe I'm giving too much credit here—be trained to flip a few pips between three priorities depending on its current goal. For instance sacrificing weapon energy for shields and engines when it needs to defensively boost, rather than trade one kind of defence for another when it doesn't know which it really needs.

Elite Dangerous' AI can do precisely this. They hired someone specifically to enhance the artificial intelligence and many of us were quite skeptical, yet somehow they managed to do just this. Sure, the AI cannot compete with the creativity of a human mind(yet), but she improved things drastically with her coding enhancements.

[vvvvvvvv]

I don't see a flaw in the system. Thats part of combat tactic to

The system feels like nonsense after going to x4 from Elite Dangerous, and also result in AI commiting suicide through boost. It also does not feel like a sensible design a sentient race would arrive it. It feels like a fake and arbitrary decision instead.

It would be better to have separate gauges.

[mr.WHO]

It would also, with proper scripting, make withdraw command/action more effective, coz it would be ideal situation for AI to hit boosters and GTFO.

[Ragnos28]

Right now, having the boost tide to the shield, mean that boost is a limited resource. If I go against an AI opponent, I know that if I take away its shield, it will no longer boost. That concept work in S/M vs S/M and turrets vs S/M ships. Now, if boost became something that can just be spamed w/o any limiting factor, well...I can imagine the reeeee on forums, when the player will not be able to catch xenon fighters, because they would just boost away, and good luck trying to kill S/M ships with turrets, because the targets will boost away as soon as they take dmg, and you cannot even hope to stop the boosting by damaging the shield. Just try to take out a xenon PE with non-beam turrets, to see what I mean.

[jlehtone]

Boost is a new mechanic in X4 ...

Partially new. (The AI using it is definitely new.)

Xbtf had boost/turbo/afterburner. Pressing 'Tab' did accelerate above normal cruise speed. Temporarily.

In X2 the 'Tab' did simply go to max cruise speed. Third-party script -- Fusion-Injector (formerly Tuning Kit Mk1) -- did boost above. It did consume a Spacefly (or ECells).

The X3R had likewise third-party script -- Afterburner -- that did use Spacefly or ECells.
The X3TC/AP version of the script -- Turbo Boost -- that did use Spacefly or ECells, or lacking those: energy from shields.
These scripts had limits on how long burns were possible and how long cooldown between burns was needed.

In other words, the X2 and X3 did not have boost, but the idea to resort to shields did pop up before X4 -- about 15 years ago.


Would it not be great if ... the ships were "modular". With a power supply and things that need power: life support, telemetry, weapons, propulsion, and shields. Of course with "conduits" (or Rodney McKay) to transfer energy from PSU to the other parts. Many things that could take damage, with the power supply being the most vital organ. Furthermore, the possiblity for the "transfer all power to the RGB" (or whatnot) trope. (The current X4 boost does transfer energy from shields to engines.)

The weapons in X4 do not use any energy. We are limited by heat and reload, not by lack of power.

The propulsion in X4 does not consume fuel. When (third-party scripts) allowed AI ships use fuel-consuming JumpDrive in X2 and X3, the AI was easily stumped by fuel logistics. Since these were player's ships, there were quickly laments. If ships would require fuel, then we would again have marooned travellers all around. I don't say that that cannot be done. I just remind you of the track record.


There was an era in X4, some versions ago, when just having anough cruise speed could keep you out of range of Xenon guns. No more. They do travel to you. Mere boost is not enough now; you have to go into travel and travel faster than the Xenon, or they do catch you whether you have shields up or not.

[jlehtone]

I can hot dog all day long in a Dragon or a Hydra, but I'd love to not have to take those purposefully fast ships to guarantee survival, and instead run the slower ones and count on boost when I need it.

You don't want to limit yourself to ships, where speed keeps you alive. Understandable.
You want the slow ships to have reliable speed (independent boost) that keeps you alive?

[Mr_Blastman]

Right now, having the boost tide to the shield, mean that boost is a limited resource. If I go against an AI opponent, I know that if I take away its shield, it will no longer boost. That concept work in S/M vs S/M and turrets vs S/M ships. Now, if boost became something that can just be spamed w/o any limiting factor, well...I can imagine the reeeee on forums, when the player will not be able to catch xenon fighters, because they would just boost away, and good luck trying to kill S/M ships with turrets, because the targets will boost away as soon as they take dmg, and you cannot even hope to stop the boosting by damaging the shield. Just try to take out a xenon PE with non-beam turrets, to see what I mean.

And now missiles have a use...

Just because a Xenon can boost away does not give them invincibility. This adds options, tactics and techniques. Depth, as others would say.

And more depth is good.

[Mr_Blastman]

I can hot dog all day long in a Dragon or a Hydra, but I'd love to not have to take those purposefully fast ships to guarantee survival, and instead run the slower ones and count on boost when I need it.

You don't want to limit yourself to ships, where speed keeps you alive. Understandable.
You want the slow ships to have reliable speed (independent boost) that keeps you alive?

I want to have the ability to engage and withdraw with the slow ships when the situation turns against me. I won't be able to flee like the fast ships, but I may be able to gain enough ground to make it to friendly cover(i.e. other fighters/cap ship) or enough to flight assist off and gain a better angle to on my attacker--or break up the murder ball surrounding me so I can separate them enough so I can take one of them out, whittling down their numbers.

^^ This was a classic strategy used in Wing Commander 1, and was especially necessary in the Secret Missions to have a chance at surviving.

In most martial arts a similar practice is utilized when facing multiple opponents. When surrounded, you must get out of the middle by whatever means necessary, and place one of your attackers between you and the rest.

Having separate boost would allow the slower ships the ability to do just this.