Is it too easy to make money?

[radcapricorn]

No, you shouldn't have to grind. But nor should you be able to build a small empire in just a few hours. It's either X4 or it isn't.
There were money exploits in previous games which you could use for an accelerated start if you wanted, but at least they weren't "in your face". In Rebirth and X4 it feels like they're not "exploits" anymore. Might as well just add the "give me another 20mil" button right on the UI.

[Drakuel]

No making money is just right the issue is the AI not forcing you to spend money...

There is no real danger right now, even enemies you come across are easily killed no challenge, so no reason to purchase escort wings or defenses or higher end parts, on and on...

The AI and other dangers that should be in a space game, is your sink to balance the economy.. Hell, I rarley even need to repair other than bailed out ships...

[Fun-X]

You asked for it, and the Devs listened. Here comes 1.32....

[wrmiller]

Maybe it (making money) is for those with previous X game experience, or those who pour over youtube vids to see how a game works, but for those few of us who have no idea of how this game works and just jumped in, making credits is NOT intuitive.

I did figure out how to do the basic things, like flying, and have 'discovered' missions where you can transport folks. I've also discovered freeways, or whatever they are called, and have been exploring mostly.

I managed to upgrade to a corvette (currently my only ship), and my greatest achievement so far is taking out two branch 9 (?) destroyers and their wings of fighters who were guarding a jump gate I just popped out of.

That was the most excitement I've had so far anyway. I'll just keep plodding along and hopefully I'll figure out this game eventually.

[Cdaragorn]

Right. I have a day job where making money is hard. I don't need a night time job where it is as hard. Sorry guys, but for me (and i'm guessing a lot of others) current way is best.

I don't have to commit to one thing and grind it for hours to get good stuff. I can do few things here, few there and get quite nice amount of starting cash, which makes snowball effect nicely. For me its a game and I don't want it to become a job where I know I have to do X, Y or Z in the beginning or I will have to grind.

This just highlights the real issue: different people enjoy different experiences from this game.

The whole "it's a job" argument really doesn't make any sense, though. By that reasoning a game is just another job whether it's easy or hard to do. The main point of it being a game is that it's an experience I can't get in RL and there's no one forcing me to do it on their timeframe.

I personally enjoyed X2 where it took longer to get into larger ships and stations. The grind isn't the issue there, though. It gives me time to enjoy the different ships I happen to be flying right now as well as take time to just relax and enjoy the universe I'm just a small part of. Rushing to get to the next bigger ship just ruins a lot of the game for me.

[CaptainX4]

I think the problem is rather with the prices.... a good single pilot fighter is close to a million while a destroyer is what? like 10 mill fully fitted? it should be closing the 100mill instead or rather 300... i barely PLAY the game, just watching instead as its look is better than its gameplay and I already have a big fleet with destroyers and carriers, i have some 8-9 station, 2 of them are massive manufacturing complexes but even in that there is no point... in X3 the reason to build an empire was, for some part, to be able to supply your own fleet. In X4 this part is dead as the weapons and shields are not anymore commodities. Huge mistake from egosoft to change that...

[Dewar]

Personally, on my second start on the 1.3 patch, I chose to not look for crystals on asteroids and not grab the random abandoned ships that seem to be everywhere. This has made making my first million a bit more challenging. If it's too easy for you, then there are a bunch of ways to create artificial difficulty. Be selective in which missions you take, maybe do only faction missions? Don't do missions at all?

[LennStar]

I certainly feel like tit is too easy.

On the other hand you are probably supposed to own whole fleets now instead of the single destroyer being your ultimate goal. (Or the super complex.)

in X3 the reason to build an empire was, for some part, to be able to supply your own fleet. In X4 this part is dead as the weapons and shields are not anymore commodities. Huge mistake from egosoft to change that...

I am sure they changed that because it was impossible to get bigger weapons and shields in any meaningful amount if you didn't produce them yourself. Often those factories would even close down because the NPC traders would get for more profit than they could get from 2 plasma cannons. I had a game where not a single plasma factory was left in the whole universe.

[CaptainX4]

I certainly feel like tit is too easy.

On the other hand you are probably supposed to own whole fleets now instead of the single destroyer being your ultimate goal. (Or the super complex.)

in X3 the reason to build an empire was, for some part, to be able to supply your own fleet. In X4 this part is dead as the weapons and shields are not anymore commodities. Huge mistake from egosoft to change that...

I am sure they changed that because it was impossible to get bigger weapons and shields in any meaningful amount if you didn't produce them yourself. Often those factories would even close down because the NPC traders would get for more profit than they could get from 2 plasma cannons. I had a game where not a single plasma factory was left in the whole universe.

i never had this kind of problems in X3, the only weapons were scarce are the extreme paranid weapons like the firespitting crap that i never used anyway and later modded it out of the game. they were a very good part of x3 and im sure, while many might didnt like it, many many of us did

[Tyrant597]

Yep, go play X3 and see how many missions pay 150k for no risk 2min scan jobs

[jasonbarron]

The only thing I can see that probably qualifies as "too easy" for money making in the early game is crystal farming, that stuff is ridiculously overpriced compared to the ease with which it is found and farmed. The missions being over priced seems laughable to me, though.

[CaptainX4]

The only thing I can see that probably qualifies as "too easy" for money making in the early game is crystal farming, that stuff is ridiculously overpriced compared to the ease with which it is found and farmed. The missions being over priced seems laughable to me, though.

really? getting the price of a fitted fighter for every satelite repair is not too much? or getting the price of 1-2 corvettes for building a 3 module station that you dont even have to do anything with? as soon as you have 1.2 million you can literally farm millions in seconds

[CaptainX4]

Yep, go play X3 and see how many missions pay 150k for no risk 2min scan jobs

or 7 million for a 1 min plan-a-base job...

[StoneLegionYT]

In my books the game could scale better even more so I love to see like Mk2 Hull's etc using more rare expensive material.

But here is the Kicker.... If you increase the price then you make your own shipyard and really all it does is shift / move the efforts over. Then it be the same thing again.

[Lymark]

I certainly feel like tit is too easy.

On the other hand you are probably supposed to own whole fleets now instead of the single destroyer being your ultimate goal. (Or the super complex.)

+1
I think the lack of player owned shipyard makes building up a fleet unnecessary, as the only legitimate way to get a ship is to buy it via AI shipyards with money. And the best&fastest way to make money is to stay closely within these well protected capital sectors, which also makes owning a sector not necessary too. Not to mention, the game is a bit towards 'too easy difficulty' at the moment.

I'm sure this will be a different story once player owned shipyard comes into play, in which we can be completely independent, as well as modders making the game more challenging for us.

[Ovni]

"Skip the grind to get to the meat of the game"-type reasonings don't hold water, because "the meat of the game" is something different to every player. You can at least identify three categories of players, those who enjoy more exploration+missions, or combat or economy. Personally, I tend to get bored as soon as the game automatically makes money for me - why keep playing when you can just leave the game on SETA? Or save the electricity bill and edit your save file while you're at it? So I enjoy more the initial stages where I'm fighting and trading stuff myself... though that got boring from X3 on without the bulletin board articles putting some lore/flavour around finding resource shortages.

Seems to me that the best way to make everyone happy is to have a slow progression that leaves you time to appreciate each stage of gameplay, then provide multiple game starts at various point of advancement. If you want to skip the grind, fine, start with a station and a small fleet of ships. Oh, and also: preset difficulty levels, with a custom difficulty option where you can tweak the sliders. C'mon Egosoft, all good games have difficulty options.

Balancing crystals is tricky. As a player who can't stand repetitive mindless grind, I'd appreciate finding the occasional crystal when exploring a sector and getting a substantial reward for it. I'm not sure the game should be balanced around players who value their leisure time so little that they're ready to spend 2 precious hours of their life repeatedly shooting virtual crystals to get virtual currency... that they could add in one second with CheatEngine. But I can understand feeling compelled to choose the most efficient path to progress in the game, even if it's mind-numbing and depressing.

[radcapricorn]

Yep, go play X3 and see how many missions pay 150k for no risk 2min scan jobs

None. At the start the most you can get is 90-100k for 10 asteroids, which certainly lasts longer than 2 minutes, and even that not until you can actually afford a ship and equipment that can do it on time - that's an investment of around 60-100k in speed upgrades and a mineral scanner, provided you already own a fast ship.

or 7 million for a 1 min plan-a-base job...

None. Building a station can only take "1 minute" once you already have your own TL, happened to be near or at a required shipyard, and enough funds to buy said station. Your own TL would cost up to 18-20million, unless it's a boarded one, which is as well not early game at all. And 7 million reward means it's a station that itself costs 5-6 million... (EDIT: oh, and those are locked away behind a reputation barrier). Until you do have your own TL, try the station build mission that forces you to escort an NPC TL through a Xenon sector because it's the only way to make it in time, then come back and tell us how it compares to current missions in X4.

Even a passenger transport for 100k in X3 in early game is realistic only if you're either very lucky, can actually fly fast and dangerous and own a docking computer, or already have a TP with a jumpdrive. Neither are exactly cheap when you've "just started", but become pocket change later on.

The only "cheesy" missions in X3 at the start are station defence, but even those can fail if you fly too far away, and the pay sucks anyway until you raise your rank. Oh, and the story ones of course, since those love to give you free stuff. At least, in TC/AP.

That said, getting from nothing to 25-30 million in under a day of game time is absolutely doable in both TC and AP. And that is a lot of money for the first day of the game.

[jasonbarron]

The only thing I can see that probably qualifies as "too easy" for money making in the early game is crystal farming, that stuff is ridiculously overpriced compared to the ease with which it is found and farmed. The missions being over priced seems laughable to me, though.

really? getting the price of a fitted fighter for every satelite repair is not too much? or getting the price of 1-2 corvettes for building a 3 module station that you dont even have to do anything with? as soon as you have 1.2 million you can literally farm millions in seconds

I love how you make the leap from a few 150,000 average courier missions to building a station as if there was no gap in between. Yes, I think the value and ease of the crystal farming has way more to do with easy money in the early game. Make of that what you will.

[Tanvaras]

Not even crystal farming, and have amassed insane amount of credits in no time. I feel the game is a little to stream lined to "End Game Goals". Restarted on 1.32 live and was at owning a few stations and a rather solid fleet of trader/miners and some support military ships all within 7 hours play time. Back in X3 that would of take me many times longer, but I know Egosoft if trying to draw in more players and to make it enjoyable they have had to dumb down the "hard core" part of the game. I can understand this from a business point of view.

Enjoy X4 for what it is and I am quite sure my 109 hours played on Steam will be more like 10,900 hours over the years ahead.

[Gregorovitch]

Seems to me that the best way to make everyone happy is to have a slow progression that leaves you time to appreciate each stage of gameplay, then provide multiple game starts at various point of advancement. If you want to skip the grind, fine, start with a station and a small fleet of ships. Oh, and also: preset difficulty levels, with a custom difficulty option where you can tweak the sliders. C'mon Egosoft, all good games have difficulty options.

The problem with starting with a station and a small fleet is it's too much for a noob to handle. They wouldn't know what to do with it. Rather like if you want to learn Distant Worlds you turn off all the automation and do everything manually from pre-warp, in a complex game like this you need to start small at the beginning and learn things in small pieces, small steps. And I think you may be forgetting that what is a grind for even an X3 vet becomes twenty grinds for the noob since as well as grinding they are also blundering around in the dark not only about how to do stuff but also what needs to be done in the first place.

Difficulty levels, yes, that is a good idea. If you set the pay rates and prices we see in X4 now as "Novice", set them at something like X3 for "Classic" and then set really mean prices and rates for "Hard" that might do the job of keeping everyone happy.