Livestream 2: highways

[UniTrader]

... or by reintroducing the transorbital accelerators we had in TC/AP, especially if collision damage is turned off near them.

arent they basically the same lore-wise? its just that X3 didnt have the capabilities needed to show their effects properly (the accelleration to a planet and deceleration at the end), so they had to work like Gates basically..

[MegaJohnny]

My theory is that zone highways are mostly covering for zone transitions. Things get a bit weird near the borders between zones - things are sort of fine but many scripts use "is target in the same zone" as an analog to "is target vaguely nearby", which makes them behave strangely if they're fighting near a zone border. The game doesn't really want you seeing that, so it gives you highways and lets you dock at capital ships as a way to concentrate ships near the centre of zones where they won't have this problem.

I don't know if I buy that it's to do with collisions, because (as Nanook already stated) it would have been easier for small ships to do the same thing as big ships. It seems to spread big ships out fairly well as it is. Also bear in mind that stations in XR have several small-ship docks all over, which reduces the chance they'll be on a collision course.

[Nanook]

... or by reintroducing the transorbital accelerators we had in TC/AP, especially if collision damage is turned off near them.

arent they basically the same lore-wise? its just that X3 didnt have the capabilities needed to show their effects properly (the accelleration to a planet and deceleration at the end), so they had to work like Gates basically..

They work basically the same as superhighways, except they didn't have that snakey-thing cluttering up space. IMO, the regular highways simply weren't needed. They just made the local space seem too small, with 'near-instant' travel between zones. There was nothing wrong with the large sectors in the previous games, like Mists of Elysium, for example. Boosting around that sector discovering the various stations was fun. Highways would've ruined the experience, IMO.

[Morkonan]

...So, the only thing I can think makes sense is that they're there to help avoid the problem experienced in previous titles with collisions in high-traffic areas...

That's pretty much correct. However, they were all made moot when Egosoft decided to do away with collision damage and ships just bounced off of each other. The only other benefit, from my standpoint, is they act like boosters, propelling ships from one zone to another. So they could be done away with completely by giving all ships boost capability or by reintroducing the transorbital accelerators we had in TC/AP, especially if collision damage is turned off near them.

Well, the issue was always, at least IMO, not really about "collision damage", but "pathing" and the obscene complexity introduced by adding a third-axis and hundreds of ships, perhaps even large stations with ginormous collision boxes... Sure, the end-result the player was usually concerned with was the loss of assets, but the real problem was getting all the ships pathing in such a way that they got to where they were going without ramming into each other.

[Nanook]

And a lot of that had to do with pushing the engine to its limits. Sounds like you did that a lot. Single core engines don't lend themselves to creating complex pathing procedures for 1000's of ships. They should be able to do a lot better with the new multi-core, high speed processors we have now, I'd hope.

[Morkonan]

And a lot of that had to do with pushing the engine to its limits. Sounds like you did that a lot. Single core engines don't lend themselves to creating complex pathing procedures for 1000's of ships. They should be able to do a lot better with the new multi-core, high speed processors we have now, I'd hope.

One hopes!

Though, if that is truly the case, then... Why highways?

I certainly concede that some things have to be done so that players can enjoy the game. I won't ever expect anyone to do the impossible, just the truly difficult.

Making a truly great science-fiction movie with huge sets, splosions, giant bots and space aliens and strange worlds and makeup effects and yada yada yada... is expensive. That's why there aren't that many true sci-fi blockbusters being made. Though, they do bring in the most cash, they also get the most criticism when someone skimps on a few million so they don't have to pay the effects team any more money.

Still, highways just seem dumb. Sure, they could be much like gates or even jump drives. But, if that was what they were really being used for, then there'd be gates and jump-drives, one assumes. That's why I still think there may be some technical reasons for them, since they just still don't make any practical sense.

Then again, I have no experience with them, so I might be missing out on some nuance in gameplay that Egosoft really wants to keep pushing. /shrug

Gates. They weren't broken. They were neat. I'm good with Gates. Give me Gates, "raw and wrigging. Egosoft can "keep nasssty" highwayssss.

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[Rei Ayanami]

Personally, i like highways, the invention of them seems also quite logical: Lets say in-lore small trading ships are at their maximum speed, you can't make them any more faster because of ship engine limitations. What would be the best way to still make them faster? By introducing something that 'drags' them faster, similar to a river stream being able to drag a rowboat faster than its original maximum rowing speed. So in-world-wise i'd say people trying to invent highways was a logical step.

Some people don't like the cloudy look. I don't mind it. I think of highways as some kind of magnetic coils generating a tunnel-shaped magnetic field from one highway ring to the next to cause a drag effect to accellerate small ships, with the cloud stuff being the result of dust/gas (like, from ships traveling through the highway) and light rays hitting the walls of the magnetic field.

The only thing i think was really missing with highways in X:R is having exiting stuff, like secrets or important locations, further away from highways. The original X:R universe seemed to be too much concentrated on the small zones the highways were located at, it needed more "off the road"-stuff to find, like shipwrecks that you can scan to find an audio log which sends you on a treasure hunt mission, something like that. Or dubstep disco cat mines.
TO and HOL were quite exiting, having to explore stuff far away from any highway was quite refreshing, but i think highways still have quite a purpose in high-density sectors.

I think having a good mix would be the best : Main sectors/highly populated/highly industrialized sectors having highways, but the further away from main sectors you get, the less highways there should be.

[Crellion]

First of all, in addition to what Nanook and others have described, there is an added bonus to the use of highways vs acceleration gates, namely that they make it possible for you to get off mid travel so there is the possibility, for the player ship at least, to explore and get to places.

In theory this could be expanded to divide the game in 3 zones.
1. The vast desert of empty space.
2. The oases of Station hubs at highway terminals.
3. The in between low vegetation in a thin zone of a few kilometers around the highway tubes themselves.

In practice in Rebirth we saw little of that.

In my personal opinion / preference, gates have to remain the main system of travel AND jump drives MUST exist that can focus on the gates. (Egosoft is erring in this respect and they will pay for it sadly.)

Then you can have accelerators for smaller distances OR you can have highways IF you plan on actually putting interesting crap around these highways to make something out of the advantage described above.

A note on highways though:
Obviously in Rebirth they are cartoonish to the point of ridicule.
Not only the design of the highways but also the way spaceships are presented and behave in the highways.
Finally also the horribad music played there (that and station disco trash were a huge put off for most players on Rebirth release).

X series gamers are mature and obviously enjoyed the sober, 'photo realistic' design and "grown up" vibe of previous games.

Highways, as iterated, were on of the main factors that made the game feel less like X series and more like super Mario in space.

While Egosoft clearly can benefit from widening the audience base (unless by doing so they loose they huge capital of dedicated fans...) it does not mean they should try to entice people looking for handheld Nintendo game pc ports...

Sorry for the tone and admittedly Foundations look more X - judging from the stream- than Rebirth but concerns have to be voiced now. Most of the people, like myself, who pre-ordered Rebirth were die hard X3 fans. For many of us it was the first (and last) pre-order of a game, at least if you see what people post in the forums and choose to believe it. Certainly it was for me.

I do not think Donkey Kong and car race arcade fans will be pre-ordering Foundations tbh...

[Crellion]

Just to complete my thoughts above, I sound a bit bitter because I fear Ego may have started with the wrong foot again.

They should have kept the newer better game engine and then started with all game design elements from X3-AP and then picked choice elements from Rebirth to incorporate. Instead they went the other way keeping the Rebirth game game design elements and looking to 'evolve/devolve' them back to X3 in some respects.

This tells me they may still be in denial as to how inferior a product Rebirth was to X3. I understand how natural this is. Rebirth is their latest and technically highest achievement. They will stand by this labor of love. It doesn't make it any less wrong though.

[Crimsonraziel]

X series gamers are mature and obviously enjoyed the sober, 'photo realistic' design and "grown up" vibe of previous games.

Please only speak for yourself.

Yet, 'photo realistc' ist not how I describe X2.

[Commander_K]

Still, highways just seem dumb.

You know what's "dumb"? A civilization only using like 20 km around the center of the solar system / around the gates. But once you allow a solar system to be an expanded space, you need a way to get to places. And varying the experience of traveling through the highways should differ from gate travel to not bore the player.

Of course, how it is implemented in XR there is much to improve, but overall I like the idea of varying the modes of transportation. Also, highways (compared e.g. to a super booster) have the advantage of creating a certain "geometry in space", not just for the pre-set stations and zones, but also for the new player created zones and stations.

BTW, I would really like it if we would have a super-highway-like effect (warp-tunnel+FX) for the gate travel (like the new super fast, no obstacle super-highways).

[Rei Ayanami]

X series gamers are mature and obviously enjoyed the sober, 'photo realistic' design and "grown up" vibe of previous games.

Older X titles were photorealistic and grown up, huh.... lets take a look at the pirate ships in X2
http://seizewell.de/x2/schiffe-Dateien/piratorinoko.jpg
http://seizewell.de/x2/schiffe-Dateien/ ... ndalay.jpg
http://seizewell.de/x2/schiffe-Dateien/bayamon.jpg


But to be serious : Personally, while i think X2 is amazing, the pirate ships were way too cartooony for me with their wierd skull cockpits. THAT, the skull cockpits, were too much wacky cartoonyness for me for a X game. X:Rebirth seemed a good mix to me between fun designs and realism, but i can see how other people want to have a more realistic look in X4.

Maybe via shader options we could be able to switch between realistic and colorful color schemes.

[UniTrader]

Maybe via shader options we could be able to switch between realistic and colorful color schemes.

ego showed a user adjustable color filter in the last stream. i think it was around the 50-minute-mark.

[Killjaeden]

If in your opinion realistic = barely color then that would be applicable, but tinting or desaturating the entire screen is nothing but a very tiny adjustement.
To make a realistic look from a vibrant style base you have to change textures individually - not wholesale. After all, a bright red star is not less bright red in a "realistic" looking world. Man made objects however would be very different in "realistic" and extremely vibrant visual style. Colors could possibly be slightly more muted, but most importantly they would have to be much more detailed in surface detail, colors would be more tuned to each other (so no rainbow ship, but only very few select colors per object) and also possibly usage of much less fully colored hull panels. Look at the newest Bladerunner movie. There is color everywhere... yet it is not looking vibrant at all.

Not only is it about colors and detail on objects, you would have to change effects and such as well. Having some option for visual style is pretty much out of question. Just like you can't just slap a cell shading effect on a realistic looking game and expect it to look good as a comic-style. It just looks half-arsed.

Older X titles were photorealistic and grown up, huh.... lets take a look at the pirate ships in X2

Those are extremely cheesy ... X2 is extremely basic in it's look. To try and put that on a modern game would look terrible to most people i bet. If you consider current style Lego-like, it would be like Duplo-esque instead.
X3 on the other hand was very different from that. X3 was much less chunky than X2. The character displays didnt quite match that style but i liked it a lot more.

Trying to make simplified 3D visual style look good (say X2 in modern times) is very very difficult. It is much easier with 2D games. Most 'artsy' 3D games with simplified look use either some key element (neon glow) or hand-drawn textures - which is pretty timeconsuming compared to modern pipelines. Just reducing texture complexity and object detail does not work, it just makes the game look old.

The radical change in style from X2 to X3 was justifiable, because of the progress of technology and techniques. The same does not apply for X3 to XR and X4. They just change it because they feel like it. Which would is their right, but it completely waters down the feeling that these games are in some way connected.
With the changes in background due to gameplay (e.g. JD elimination) this feeling is reinforced even stronger. And this was my biggest gripe with ES decisions for XR and apparently looks like they are repeating it for X4 . It's like playing a completely disconnected game every time, with the exception of the name and stories in background that are borrowed from each other.
_____
Highways:
I dont hate them, but the primary reason i dont like them is, that you have to be ON the highway to interact with the main traffic in any meaningfull way. And there is no way to observe trade routes in person, because everything is too fast to be identified.

In X3 you see a trader in sector and can tell the destination. Now you can deduct what the trader is propably doing, what cargo he has, how long it takes to get there. You can then send something to investigate the station and possibly cut the trader (buy something off from his nose). With highways thats only possible if you have a gigantic array of scanners/sattelites. In X3 you could do it in person.

[Nanook]

First of all, in addition to what Nanook and others have described, there is an added bonus to the use of highways vs acceleration gates, namely that they make it possible for you to get off mid travel so there is the possibility, for the player ship at least, to explore and get to places.....

But there's a major problem with that theory. Actually two major problems. The first is the speed of the highways doesn't lend itself to getting off quickly if you do spot something interesting. Which leads us to the second and most important problem - seeing something interesting. The speed of travel along with the highway graphics inhibits a player's ability to even spot interesting things unless they're right by the highway. I'd say that exploration happens a lot less in Rebirth because of the highways. Personally I spent a lot more time exploring Toride and Cold Star systems because there were no highways.

As for the acceleration gates, they'd only be used in place of the superhighways, where you couldn't get off anyway. TOA'a and superhighways function exactly the same way, moving players quickly vast distances. So in that regard, superhighways are fine. I'm just advocating against those ugly local highways.

[Killjaeden]

First of all, in addition to what Nanook and others have described, there is an added bonus to the use of highways vs acceleration gates, namely that they make it possible for you to get off mid travel so there is the possibility, for the player ship at least, to explore and get to places.....

The speed of travel along with the highway graphics inhibits a player's ability to even spot interesting things unless they're right by the highway. I'd say that exploration happens a lot less in Rebirth because of the highways. Personally I spent a lot more time exploring Toride and Cold Star systems because there were no highways..

I would argue that it's actually the distance between areas of interest that is the cause of exploration happening less... when you absolutely need a highway to get between them in any reasonable time, then the likelyhood of people going out of their way to explore the "in between" area by chance is very small. Also, if they do it a couple of times and find nothing, that will lead to them thinking that it's not worth the time to look at all in the "inbetween area".

[monster.zero]

This is why Elite Dangerous and Star Citizen(and EVE) have ONE space station model. You do your business at the 1 station and then travel to another station million/billions KM's away. Removes the clutter. They don't have 5 or 6 'specialty' stations to choose from...You get 1 choice and then move on.


I understand Egosoft is trying to do cities in space and not just a single point of interest.

I suggest removing highways and spreading out the stations. I'd use this approach:

Saturn system.

In orbit around Titan is a ship building facility, on the other side have another station doing whatever.
In orbit around Enceladus have a Solar Energy array..maybe on the far side another one.
Rhea: 2 stations in orbit
Iapetus: Etc.......

Maybe 6 stations orbiting Saturn....not clumped together! and another 100 orbiting it's moons.

[HaradaTaro]

Highways where overused in X rebirth but with the take off of jumpdrive they can come in use again.

[Crellion]

This is why Elite Dangerous and Star Citizen(and EVE) have ONE space station model. You do your business at the 1 station and then travel to another station million/billions KM's away. Removes the clutter. They don't have 5 or 6 'specialty' stations to choose from...You get 1 choice and then move on.

Actually EvE has more than one stations in most systems and all stations do not offer all services. Moreover player built stations there vary vastly in the offered services.

By contrast EvE has an incredibly 'down to business' travel system with no highways just gates AND jump drives of many different types and applications that have detailed balancing factors in place to keep them for becoming OP or game breaking.

If only Ego followed that approach things would be better. You dont do away with JDs but they can only lock on to beacons. You have to have a ship with a beacon that will activate it for other ships to be able to jump to it. Big ships only. Or small ships using a portal opened by capital ships in their end. Great great stuff. Also the beacon ship cannot move and if it is destroyed the portal closes.

A good suggestion for X4 would be instead of doing away with JDs use them in this way. Have beacons as modules on player owned ships that have to be active-activated for the player or other player owned capitals to be able to jump there.

Don't be lazy pliz do this for the actual game on release rather than some $19.99 DLC three months after release

[astreus]

IMO if found the highway idea total stupid. It gives the feeling of a car race game instead of a space sim. The (too much) clouds and other things give a air (plane) sim feeling.
Additional deep & most dark space got lost, so did the space feeling.

It would be much better to improve the booster (or have few types), maybe a way of fast / long term, but after start, bound to one direction, no way to change direction while boosting. Besides, the idea to need capital ships (to dock) to travel to far distance is not bad at all.

Jumps should be limited to special local installations, like gates or nav beacon. If you could simple jump for anywhere to anywhere, this would be too easy.