Marines Just Disappeared

General discussions about the games by Egosoft including X-BTF, XT, X², X³: Reunion, X³: Terran Conflict and X³: Albion Prelude.

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Timsup2nothin
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Post by Timsup2nothin »

DrBullwinkle wrote:It is not an off-duty issue... it only happens during combat (including boarding ops). A lucky hit against your M7M can lose all marines on board. A Nova with Mass Drivers could do it.

Interestingly, TP's are immune to the problem, because built-in Cargo Life Support cannot be lost due to damage.
Wellllll...the OP actually lost his marines while he was docked, so the 'only during combat' is a slight stretch. If the marines are lost during activities that didn't involve a boarding op they shouldn't have been on the ship, lesson learned. As to a 'lucky hit' happening during boarding ops...X is listed most places as a 'space simulation'...in space bad things happen, including bad luck. Rise to the challenge.

Look at the forum. You can see dozens of 'boasts posts' about capping this, capping that, capping a whole list of stuff one after another. A complex belches out the endless missiles, the trained marines seldom suffer any casualties, the system is almost fool proof...but one lucky break for the opposition and the river of tears threatens to drown the universe.
Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!
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DrBullwinkle
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Post by DrBullwinkle »

I think you missed a couple of points, Tim. First, it is unlikely that the OP lost his marines at the dock -- that is just when he first noticed it. Second, the issue that phezzan brought up happens frequently enough to be annoying. It is not a fun part of the game when it happens. Experienced players just reload.

But Cycrow is here, and it made sense to give him an ER while the subject was current. He is the guy who writes the boarding code. Whether or not he does anything with the request is up to him. :)
Timsup2nothin
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Post by Timsup2nothin »

Dollar to a doughnut he lost them when he was upgrading from the minotaur to the cobra in the process of shifting CLS from one ship to the other.

As to the 'not fun' parts of the game...losing ships isn't fun...losing stations isn't fun...losing the race to a station selling cheap goods and watching an NPC hauler fly off with them isn't fun...having to repair the dinged hull of my M5 with the repair laser isn't fun...but the game is made fun by these and other challenges that must be repeatedly overcome.

Why should boarding ops be proof against misfortune when nothing else is? They are by far the most lucrative aspect of the game...and given that most players who are heavy into boarding ops reload like fiends anyway what's the big deal?
Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!
Phezzan
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Post by Phezzan »

(*surprised* - Well I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition)

I'm aware that I'm misusing the term 'bug' in the technical sense.
I'm more concerned with the player experience, and in that sense I believe I can make a strong case for the undesirability of the 'feature' as currently implemented.

There are 3 compounding parts to this problem.
1 - loss of equipment is random and binary.
2 - Marines are slow to 'build' and require a lot of manual effort (compared to Laser Factories... etc).
5 - Military Ships designed to use marines (M6/7/...) are more vulnerable to lose them all than a non-military TP.

1 - Any hull damage, no matter how small in relation to ship health, has a chance of destroying equipment. I'm no expert on how this works (feel free to enlighten me), but in my experience the amount of damage has nothing to do with the likelihood of equipment destruction.
- No matter how expensive or important it is, all equipment is equally likely to be destroyed in every hit.

2 - There's no complex to churn out marines, training them takes hours, they're expensive (relative to other equipment), and training fighting requires you to risk them in boarding missions...etc In terms of player effort - marines are the most costly 'thing' in the universe. This is not bad in and of itself.

3 - Although all big ships are designed to carry Marines for defense, and some for offense, only non-military ships provide military grade life-support that is protected from battle damage.

4 - You can't install backup life-support.

5 - All marines die instantly when life-support fails. (so you can't mod in backup life-support)

Now lets talk about dealing with these problems.

1 - Ships have multiple Shields / Lasers , and you can keep extras in cargo. Other equipment (jumpdrive / software) is rarely mission critical and most of that is pretty cheap. Many mods exist to ease the difficulty of replacing that equipment from LV's kits to Cycrow's Dock Research and others... I mention those mods because they are widely considered indispensable for good reason.

2 - Very little - Players can have a ship in every military base ready to buy marines, but must still inspect and pick good individuals, then train them on low value targets.

3 - Players can have the 'tougher' non-military ships carry the marines and then transfer the marines just before commencing a boarding operation. If the ship you wish to carry marines can dock a TP, you could script something to transfer the marines around based on conditions...

4 - ...
5 - ... (surprise, fear, and a ruthless efficiency?)

The combination of these problems is unique and unintuitive.

it means:
  • Weak fast firing weapons can neutralize a capital ship and kill all of it's marines, even though it does very little damage.
    A heavy weapon can wreck the hull, but leave all the equipment (and marines) in tact.
    Marines on my M2 might all die from one shot from an M5's Mass Drivers.
    Marines on a non-military ship with a fraction of the hit points are much safer in the same scenario.
    Marines are always ready to be ejected into space, but they're never ready for the loss of life support.
    Marines are treated like cargo on one hand, but per ship limits prevent you from stuffing the cargo hold full of them.
    Marines are the most fragile and most expensive equipment the player can obtain.
As Bullwinkle points out - A fighter with Mass Drivers is paradoxically much scarier for large ships that small ones. That lucky shot can destroy a 1M credit gun or all 20 Five-Star marines. Fighters carry much cheaper stuff and will evade most shots.

The player cannot protect himself from this weapon - his only means of handling it is to destroy the attacking ship. This raises the balance problem of Big Ships vs Little Ships, firepower and accuracy. Any balance that allows the player to effectively protect himself would be overpowered favoring Big Ships.

IMNSHO the best answer available to these problems is modding Cargo Lifesupport into every Marine carrying military ship.

If anything were possible, I would instead give the ship an Oxygen counter that decreases over time if marines are onboard. Main Life-Support would be destructible and sufficient only for for the ship's official # of Marines. 'Cargo Life-Support' would allow any number of Marines in the cargo bay.
You would be warned when transferring Cargo Life-Support to other ships if it would result in the eventual death of your Marines.
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DrBullwinkle
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Post by DrBullwinkle »

Well I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition
*Nobody* expects the Spanish Inquisition! :rofl:


Phezzan wrote:the best answer available to these problems is modding Cargo Lifesupport into every Marine carrying military ship.
That is what I do in my own game. But it would be cooler if EgoSoft could change the equipment-damage system to kill only part of the marine squad.

In any case, I don't care about a 1M credit cannon... that's just bad luck. An entire squad of 5-star SEAL's is a different thing... they are truly priceless.
Timsup2nothin
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Post by Timsup2nothin »

A synonym for priceless is irreplaceable. Marines aren't...even entire shiploads of five star SEALs. Maybe you are temporarily cut off from the lucrative boarding trade, or maybe you have to use the back up SEALs you've been hoarding for bragging rights (c'mon, you know there are players who take inordinate pride in all the extra marines they have that they never even use).
Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!
Phezzan
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Post by Phezzan »

@Timsup2nothin
A synonym for priceless is irreplaceable.
Technically you are correct - but then since this is a game, literally nothing is irreplaceable. Died in Dead is Dead? Well just start a new game and rebuild it all.

I've never found this fact comforting enough to justify a frustrating game mechanic... Dark Souls for example, is not my kind of game.

Marines are unique in how much player time they require... and my time is irreplaceable.
Timsup2nothin
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Post by Timsup2nothin »

Phezzan wrote:@Timsup2nothin
A synonym for priceless is irreplaceable.
Technically you are correct - but then since this is a game, literally nothing is irreplaceable. Died in Dead is Dead? Well just start a new game and rebuild it all.

I've never found this fact comforting enough to justify a frustrating game mechanic... Dark Souls for example, is not my kind of game.

Marines are unique in how much player time they require... and my time is irreplaceable.
I just don't see them taking that much player time. You park a TP at a base and hit the 'train my guys' button. You do boarding ops with them to improve their fighting skills, which seems more than rewarding enough in itself..and if you didn't want to do boarding ops you wouldn't have any reason to be training marines so I find it hard to consider that time spent as a 'cost'. So where is this irreplaceable time that is being taken away?

Personally I find it a 'frustrating game mechanic' that all the ships that go really fast (which I like to fly) tend to wind up splattered against some big slow hunk of metal. Is collision damage a feature, or a bug?
Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!
Phezzan
Posts: 126
Joined: Mon, 12. Nov 07, 05:48
x4

Post by Phezzan »

I'm totally with you on that one.

The 'Whiskers' on my Ryu were a continual problem until I downloaded GMax and cut them off.

It seems like everything larger than M3 considers itself both an irresistible force and an unmovable object while the engine happily shreds the health bar until something dies.

It's less collision and more intersection...

Admittedly it's how I deal with fighters in my TL..
A decent fighter with full weapons can easily do 60k shield damage, but he only has 25k hitpoints, and it's really not hard to strafe into them as they try to end their attack run.

With a good shield gen, they only have 4-6 seconds worth of 'ramming cost'.

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