[AP] War-zone Game-breaking AI Complaint

[Catra]

so theyre smart and want to take out your logistic train....
whats the problem?

Even though this smells of trolling, I'll bite:
What's so "smart" about that? Why would they want to take out my logistics train? To ruin me? Well, IF that was their goal, they could have taken the shortcut and destroyed me personally while I was flying right in the middle of several M2s, M7s, M6s etc. in my poor M3. And they haven't. Our hulls nearly scratched eachother, and they haven't fired a single bullet at me. And why would they? I'm a "Warrior of Io". But then, why would they attack my ships while I'm not there?

so you consider things you dont understand trolling?

its simple really:

in any war scenario (which this is) part of the battle strategy is going to disrupt the flow of enemy equipment to the outfitting centres, either by destroying their delivery systems (our transports), or the manufacturing centre (our stations), and this looks like its supposed to simulate that.

granted, its abit low that they can hamstring the player, but not vice versa.

now for the whole " im their enemy when im not there and their ally when im there", yes, that sounds like somebody forgot to put in a rep inhibitor for the argon / terran war starts so this sorta thing doesnt happen and im onboard for them to fix that.

[Dakota-]

I have seen it where I enter a war sector and there are no enemy ships right at the gate. I placed a sat in the other sector and wait for the enemies to be cleared on the other side of the gate, then jump in, and no enemies. I actually don't know if they are coded to spawn as soon as you enter sector, I think though that they are there so often though that it seems that way

Yes. There seems to be modifications to how the spawning works if you can see what's going on in the sectors with adv. sats.

If one puts adv. sats in those sectors, one will find that the AI hunts those sats down regardless of how many ships are sitting right next to them, and usually the OOS AI lets them cross vast distances to do so.

I've done some very distant sat placement, far more distant than in typical sectors and the sats still get hunted down. It just doesn't make sense in the way it has been implemented. The adv. sats pose the enemy AI little or no threat in comparison to the dozens of ships already in the sector, not to mention the handful that are already sitting on top of the gate the enemy enters through (and doesn't attack, nor get attacked).

Pretty silly stuff.

[kotorone1]

I would like to point out that these are WAR ZONE sectors. that means things will be spawning to kill you. If you dont like having your TS's shot at, then dont fly through the warzone. THere is just as good of trading oppurtunities in sectors on the other side of the galaxy. And if you so desperately need something from OL or treaurse chest, then be prepared to fight for it. Yes, this can be improved, but just complain wont change anything

sorry if this comes across as harsh, i would just like people to be using common sense

[Catra]

I have seen it where I enter a war sector and there are no enemy ships right at the gate. I placed a sat in the other sector and wait for the enemies to be cleared on the other side of the gate, then jump in, and no enemies. I actually don't know if they are coded to spawn as soon as you enter sector, I think though that they are there so often though that it seems that way

Yes. There seems to be modifications to how the spawning works if you can see what's going on in the sectors with adv. sats.

If one puts adv. sats in those sectors, one will find that the AI hunts those sats down regardless of how many ships are sitting right next to them, and usually the OOS AI lets them cross vast distances to do so.

I've done some very distant sat placement, far more distant than in typical sectors and the sats still get hunted down. It just doesn't make sense in the way it has been implemented. The adv. sats pose the enemy AI little or no threat in comparison to the dozens of ships already in the sector, not to mention the handful that are already sitting on top of the gate the enemy enters through (and doesn't attack, nor get attacked).

Pretty silly stuff.

that satellite poses a very serious threat:

knowledge is power.

[Dakota-]

I would like to point out that these are WAR ZONE sectors. that means things will be spawning to kill you. If you dont like having your TS's shot at, then dont fly through the warzone. THere is just as good of trading oppurtunities in sectors on the other side of the galaxy. And if you so desperately need something from OL or treaurse chest, then be prepared to fight for it. Yes, this can be improved, but just complain wont change anything

sorry if this comes across as harsh, i would just like people to be using common sense

I recommend you re-read my and others' posts in a sincere fashion.

As I'm sure you are aware, we're not playing Magic the Gathering the table top version and there are details beyond top-level "in-theory" strategy/reasoning that make sense to be considered. In this version, how the opponent lays their cards down is as important as what cards are played; and certainly is as important as the story about why they played them.

[all_other_names_taken]

so you consider things you dont understand trolling?

its simple really:

in any war scenario (which this is) part of the battle strategy is going to disrupt the flow of enemy equipment to the outfitting centres, either by destroying their delivery systems (our transports), or the manufacturing centre (our stations), and this looks like its supposed to simulate that.

There's nothing to understand. You give the AI too much credit. Such high strategic "thoughts" are surely not implemented. What's there is a simple "shoot on sight" and that I would understand. The problem (actually, one of the problems) with this war mechanic is different treatment IS and OOS. I'm glad to hear you agree this should be fixed.

[Catra]

i dont see how im giving them too much credit when in this thread its confirmed that:

- they go straight for satellites (thus limiting information gathering)
- they go straight for your transports (thus limtiing money acquisition / production rate)

its kindof a sign they have a routine to hamstring the player.

its not different treatment, the problem is that since your rep tells the terran ship "hey i have friendly rep to you, you cant attack me", it has to obey that rule while you are there.

[kotorone1]

I've heard that animals don't like to stick there noses where it hurts, so I think a good lesson can be taken from them.
Catra is right here. Seeing as the player tends to be the deadliest person in the game, naturally the terrans will attempt to dissurpt your supplyines, and will prevent information from bing gathered about them.

Also I am not discussing "theory" here. When I said run away from Ol and treasure chest I wasn't saying it would work in theory, but in fact. You have managed to avoid xenon sectors, and don't complain about not being able to spend time in those sectors, so just treat the war zone sectors like a xenon sectors ie don't go into those sectors without a m2 or an AI fleet

[all_other_names_taken]

i dont see how im giving them too much credit when in this thread its confirmed that:

- they go straight for satellites (thus limiting information gathering)
- they go straight for your transports (thus limtiing money acquisition / production rate)

No. That's not an accurate description of their behavior. This is:
- They go straight for your ANYTHING.

There's nothing smart about that.
You thinking the way you do about it may help your immersion, but it's got no background in their real "motives". They just blindly attack and destroy ANYTHING you own that happens to be in those sectors while you're not there personally. In their script there is no strategy about "information gathering" or "money acquisition" or any such stuff. You're just throwing in fancy words to describe a very, very simple behavior.

its not different treatment, the problem is that since your rep tells the terran ship "hey i have friendly rep to you, you cant attack me", it has to obey that rule while you are there.

And how is that not "different treatment"? Why don't they obey the same rule for my property while I'm OOS? If they're not obeying the same rule both IS and OOS, that's different treatment.

[all_other_names_taken]

I've heard that animals don't like to stick there noses where it hurts, so I think a good lesson can be taken from them.
Catra is right here. Seeing as the player tends to be the deadliest person in the game, naturally the terrans will attempt to dissurpt your supplyines, and will prevent information from bing gathered about them.

But you're forgetting one thing: I am NOT deadly to them. I am a friend. Not only that, but I'm also a "Hero of Sol". Surely you don't agree they should destroy the property of their hero?
I've started as a Humble Merchant. I have not fired a single bullet at them. I am therefore a civilian. My traders are also civilians. How can you justify the killing of civilians?
IF we were enemies, then yes, you might say that my "civilian" transports are helping the build up of my army that will eventually attack them, so destroying my transport vessels would indeed be justified.
But we're not enemies. We're friends. THAT is the problem.

Also I am not discussing "theory" here. When I said run away from Ol and treasure chest I wasn't saying it would work in theory, but in fact. You have managed to avoid xenon sectors, and don't complain about not being able to spend time in those sectors, so just treat the war zone sectors like a xenon sectors ie don't go into those sectors without a m2 or an AI fleet

A lousy comparison.
I don't have recognition with Xenon. I do with Terrans.
I'm not a "Hero of Xenon core", but I am a "Hero of Sol".
There's the big difference.
Oh, and there's one more: I can't fly my player ship freely through Xenon sectors without being attacked. I can do so in Terran sectors.
See? Not comparable.

EDIT: And why shouldn't I go into those sectors without an M2? I can go there in a completely unarmed M5 and absolutely nothing will happen to me.

[Catra]

i dont see how im giving them too much credit when in this thread its confirmed that:

- they go straight for satellites (thus limiting information gathering)
- they go straight for your transports (thus limtiing money acquisition / production rate)

No. That's not an accurate description of their behavior. This is:
- They go straight for your ANYTHING.

There's nothing smart about that.
You thinking the way you do about it may help your immersion, but it's got no background in their real "motives". They just blindly attack and destroy ANYTHING you own that happens to be in those sectors while you're not there personally. In their script there is no strategy about "information gathering" or "money acquisition" or any such stuff. You're just throwing in fancy words to describe a very, very simple behavior.

its not different treatment, the problem is that since your rep tells the terran ship "hey i have friendly rep to you, you cant attack me", it has to obey that rule while you are there.

And how is that not "different treatment"? Why don't they obey the same rule for my property while I'm OOS? If they're not obeying the same rule both IS and OOS, that's different treatment.

but do you have any proof to back up what you say? do they really just blindly attack? everything in this thread points to no, and you look like youre being dense and argumentative just to be dense and argumentative(and your second response to what i said proves that).

how many different ways do you want to hear the same thing? just what exactly are you not understanding when i say " there is no rep inhibitor, ergo the engine forces them to be unable to attack you. " this is not different treatment, this is someone forgetting to disallow this situation from happening.

[all_other_names_taken]

but do you have any proof to back up what you say?

I have empirical proof. Each and every piece of my property that happened to be in the war sectors while I'm not there was attacked.
What proof do you have to back up your claims?

do they really just blindly attack?

Yes.

everything in this thread points to no,

How so?

and you look like youre being dense and argumentative just to be dense and argumentative(and your second response to what i said proves that).

Why the insults?
I may look like that to you, but that's just your opinion. And it would be polite of you to keep those kinds of opinions to yourself.

how many different ways do you want to hear the same thing? just what exactly are you not understanding when i say " there is no rep inhibitor, ergo the engine forces them to be unable to attack you."

What is a "rep inhibitor"? Never heard of such thing. Please forgive my ignorance on this matter.

this is not different treatment, this is someone forgetting to disallow this situation from happening.

Well, "someone forgetting to do something" means that there IS a problem. That's all I was saying from the beginning.
And you were trying to justify this erroneous game behavior by making up stories about how the AI is "smart" and how it's actually trying to do this and that.
And only now you're admitting that "someone forgot to do something". That's a quite different claim from those in your initial couple of posts.
Now that you say "someone forgot to do something", you and I actually finally agree on something.

[Seleucius]

Well, for what it's worth, before this gets all out of hand and ad hominem, I've done some quick testing:

but do you have any proof to back up what you say?

I have empirical proof. Each and every piece of my property that happened to be in the war sectors while I'm not there was attacked.

I can replicate this behavior. At 8% Hero of Sol, any assets (TS, NavSat, TM, various fighters) I leave in OL after my personal ship leaves the sector are still attacked by spawned hostile Terran ships.

do they really just blindly attack?

Yes.

Beeline at my assets, ignoring Argon assets. The hostile ships did spawn at a gate, however.

Are there any S&Mers present familiar with what script could be spawning these baddies, so we can take a look at it? Or at least give me a starting point?

[Cycrow]

Are there any S&Mers present familiar with what script could be spawning these baddies, so we can take a look at it? Or at least give me a starting point?

a question that should be asked in the S&M forums

[JDCollie]

they go straight for satellites (thus limiting information gathering)
- they go straight for your transports (thus limtiing money acquisition / production rate)

I don't have a problem with the AI hunting your assets in war sectors; I have a problem with the AI hunting my Discoverer who is 100km away when there is a hostile Heavy Centaur 5km away.

I am clearly not the priority threat, yet I am treated that way, which is illogical and stupid.

[Catra]

yeah, thats some strange behaviour they havent worked out yet =P

i reported the same behaviour in the RRF thread wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy back in the day, and got a response something like :

" when the ships spawn, they will attack the first thing they see on radar "

and for whatever reason, the first thing they see is my ship some 80 KM out, apparently it hasnt been worked out.

[Catra]

but do you have any proof to back up what you say?

I have empirical proof. Each and every piece of my property that happened to be in the war sectors while I'm not there was attacked.
What proof do you have to back up your claims?

do they really just blindly attack?

Yes.

everything in this thread points to no,

How so?

how many different ways do you want to hear the same thing? just what exactly are you not understanding when i say " there is no rep inhibitor, ergo the engine forces them to be unable to attack you."

What is a "rep inhibitor"? Never heard of such thing. Please forgive my ignorance on this matter.

this is not different treatment, this is someone forgetting to disallow this situation from happening.

Well, "someone forgetting to do something" means that there IS a problem. That's all I was saying from the beginning.
And you were trying to justify this erroneous game behavior by making up stories about how the AI is "smart" and how it's actually trying to do this and that.
And only now you're admitting that "someone forgot to do something". That's a quite different claim from those in your initial couple of posts.
Now that you say "someone forgot to do something", you and I actually finally agree on something.

my proof is in the thread. you have brought nothing to the table to prove your claims.

people pointing out they are methodically attacking stuff is proof they are not just blindly attacking you.

a line of code that makes it impossible for you to go above or below a certain rank.

no, i have said a few times now that someone forgot to do something, go back and fully read my posts.

[StreetRat]

Almost every post says or at least implies that when you leave a sector hostile ships will spawn and go after your assets first, ignoring the war targets right next to them unless there shot at.

"people pointing out they are methodically attacking stuff is proof they are not just blindly attacking you. "
Thats the problem, the point is they are methodically attacking YOUR stuff first ignoring everything else, including reputation.

I dont have any proof on this as i dont have anything bigger than a m6 to test with, but it seems what attacks is in proportion to your assets in the sector. When sending in a m6, i had 2 m6 attack, when its just a satellite its a few m4s when its a transport its been a m3 and a few m4s.
If its a m1 or m2 i wonder if theyll send a few m1s or 2s after you.


And just one more point to add, the attacking force is your lowest rep between terran and argon regardless of your start.
Using a terran start, i got my argon rep maxed out, and as soon as it was higher than my terran rep, terran ships started attacking my assets first, ignoring all the argon at the gate.
From that, it almost looks like its programed that way for some strange reason as it seems to work on which of your rep is lower, not what your rep actually is.

[Catra]

and now were getting somewhere.

yes, your ally ignoring the enemy bent on killing you is pretty sloppy and a lazy hack, and IMO an apprpriate fix would be:

have your enemy scan the sector and bring in forces to deal with any sector defenders, and a smaller force to bent on killing your assets.

[Cycrow]

have your enemy scan the sector and bring in forces to deal with any sector defenders, and a smaller force to bent on killing your assets.

and thats exactly what happens now

the entire sector doesn't go after player assets only certain ships, the rest will take out any other enemies