EGOSOFT and Deep Silver announce X Rebirth

[grim company]

The taurus multiplied.... anyway seems great on the visual side, and also, did i spot right a type of cruise propulsion mode on the trailer?

[Terre]

That aint no city, that's one of the supper stations said to be in the game.
The tiny standalone stations and fabs of old have apparently been replaced by these hulking monstrosities.

I do hope that the player can build station complexes of their own, as I prefer the trading aspect of the game, rather than the 'settle all arguments with a missile' approach.

[THE_TrashMan]

*settles this argument with a missile*

[StarTroll]

That aint no city, that's one of the supper stations said to be in the game.
The tiny standalone stations and fabs of old have apparently been replaced by these hulking monstrosities.

I do hope that the player can build station complexes of their own, as I prefer the trading aspect of the game, rather than the 'settle all arguments with a missile' approach.

More of a missile man myself, but I till need those stations to churn them quicly enough myself.
And from we interview we know we will still own stations, but how it is implemented we don't know.

[Retiredman]

<------ Willing to be a final stage bug tester...

Just keep me in mind.

OH BTW..
specs:
CPU: i7 3.2GHz quad core hyperthreader.
24GB Ram
GTX 460 video card.
Plenty of HD spece.

Plenty of time on hand to bug test.

[softweir]

<------ Willing to be a final stage bug tester...

Go to your PROFILE and fill in the contact details at the bottom, then click on the link just below that to be taken to a page where you can print out a copy of the NDA. Print out two copies, sign them both, then post them to Egosoft.

[Advent1s]

Small suggestion to replace RNG with something much more immersion and well logical.

Instead of GoD just blowing anything it wants up, no care in the world to original owner, maybe station takeovers can be a reality and pirates can access the less profitable stations and using it as a base and refitting it for a fab if they like, of course there's obviously problems with this, but seems better than the station owner going all Suicidal because he cant turnover a profit.

Maybe missions to take back stations, like the Original owner jumps out into a ship or even his spacesuit and he fly's to a station or you pick him up or something, then he gives you a mission possibly or sell him back as a slave to the same station.

Just a thought.

[Gazz]

The difference between fighter classes should feel "organic", not like it was artificially created. In other words, there is no need for different fighter classes to be so super-different in tersm of stats, with a massive chasm between classes. No head-bangingly huge difference in shield strength, armor, speed or price.

I think you're putting the carriage in front of the horse.

In order to answer "What differences should there be between fighter classes?" you first need to answer
"Why are there different fighter classes? What is their purpose?"

Having an M4 class just for the sake of having an M4 class is silly.
Why do they exist?
What do they do that M5 or M3 can not do?

If they have no particular purpose: delete the class.
The game does not get more interesting by having more pointless ship types.


To make scouts (M5) useful, there must be an in-game reason for why they are useful.
Right now the best use of scouts is to send 8 of them out to each drop an AdvSat, then return.
After that you are as good as omniscient in that system.
Alas, that's no reason for why you need them. What should they do that other ships cannot?

Combining this with my missile suggestions, M4 could become interceptors while M3 are more space superiority fighters.
Would be a start.

[Roguey]

<------ Willing to be a final stage bug tester...

Go to your PROFILE and fill in the contact details at the bottom, then click on the link just below that to be taken to a page where you can print out a copy of the NDA. Print out two copies, sign them both, then post them to Egosoft.

I would of thought egosoft would contact people if they are interested in them testing rebirth?

[perkint]

<------ Willing to be a final stage bug tester...

Go to your PROFILE and fill in the contact details at the bottom, then click on the link just below that to be taken to a page where you can print out a copy of the NDA. Print out two copies, sign them both, then post them to Egosoft.

I would of thought egosoft would contact people if they are interested in them testing rebirth?

Doubt it, unless you're already registered as LVL5.

Oh, and you don't have to post the form any more

Tim

[StarTroll]

The difference between fighter classes should feel "organic", not like it was artificially created. In other words, there is no need for different fighter classes to be so super-different in tersm of stats, with a massive chasm between classes. No head-bangingly huge difference in shield strength, armor, speed or price.

I think you're putting the carriage in front of the horse.

In order to answer "What differences should there be between fighter classes?" you first need to answer
"Why are there different fighter classes? What is their purpose?"

Having an M4 class just for the sake of having an M4 class is silly.
Why do they exist?
What do they do that M5 or M3 can not do?

If they have no particular purpose: delete the class.
The game does not get more interesting by having more pointless ship types.


To make scouts (M5) useful, there must be an in-game reason for why they are useful.
Right now the best use of scouts is to send 8 of them out to each drop an AdvSat, then return.
After that you are as good as omniscient in that system.
Alas, that's no reason for why you need them. What should they do that other ships cannot?

Combining this with my missile suggestions, M4 could become interceptors while M3 are more space superiority fighters.
Would be a start.

IIRC scouts + explorer software = unique ship commands.
Seeing as the exploration becomes a prominent feature we might see some variant of this, unless we are supposed to explore by ourselves.

[Gazz]

IIRC scouts + explorer software = unique ship commands.
Seeing as the exploration becomes a prominent feature we might see some variant of this, unless we are supposed to explore by ourselves.

Gawd, no! I was looking at what could be a reason to have a scout ship class at all.
If it's just a bit of software, every fighter is a scout which leads to bland and boring gameplay.
If there is the "one best ship" which can do everything best, there is no more choice. (see Boreas, Springblossom)

If "scouts" are to make any sense at all, they must have some feature that is radically different from other fighters. Kinda like snipers in FPS work differently from machine gunners.
All I can come up with is some sort of stealth capability, being able to scout without dieing / alerting the enemy.
Some kind of ping / RADAR profile mechanic, allowing to sneak behind enemy line to drop a mine or attach a magnetic mine to a capital ship's hull.
Heaver fighters would rather "recon by fire".

Sensor range could (should!) also be a property of the ship type instead of every ship ending up with the best scanner.
If equipment is installed in a ship, it should enhance the existing ship stat by x %.
Right now, you install a Triplex Scanner and it simply overwrites.
That is no choice. You get "the best" with no drawback.
If a Triplex Upgrade would boost the ship's natural scanner range by 100%, a scout with a TU would still be far better at it's job than a space superiority fighter.
Upgrades that wash away any designed differences of ship types defeat the purpose of having differences!

Without any ability that only a "scout" has, the class may as well be deleted. In X3 they are pointless beyond their use as disposable heavy fighter drones for a carrier.
(buying 100 stock L Busters, which come fully equipped for use on a carrier)

[THE_TrashMan]

Ship ROLES should exist. But as they are now? No thank you.

Scouts are nothing more than useless cannon fodder as it is now. Even with CMOD + SRM + hit point boost they drop like filies.

I tried using Adv. discoveres and Adv. Rapiers - fully upgraded, max shields - as explorers. They DIE. A lot.

Too friggin specilized. Too fragile. There's no sense to desing craft wiht patheticly weak shields, if better shields are availalbe. There's no sense in designing shields with such a huge gap either. There's an entire range in-between that isn't covered - range any sensible military would want to cover.
Heck, giving you scout a single 25MJ shield would be better than giving it 10 1MJ ones. Fighter classes, as tehy are now are STUPID.

[Nanook]

IIRC scouts + explorer software = unique ship commands.
Seeing as the exploration becomes a prominent feature we might see some variant of this, unless we are supposed to explore by ourselves.

Gawd, no! I was looking at what could be a reason to have a scout ship class at all.
If it's just a bit of software, every fighter is a scout which leads to bland and boring gameplay.
If there is the "one best ship" which can do everything best, there is no more choice. (see Boreas, Springblossom)

If "scouts" are to make any sense at all, they must have some feature that is radically different from other fighters. ...

Actually, they have two such features - cheap and fast. Just what you want in an expendable scout.

[garthnok]

I think the difference between the fighters don't translate well in X games.

M5= Fast scout fighter that should be good at picking off incoming tops and missiles as well as giving targeting data for your own torps and missile boats. Unfortunately Jamming never made it into X so this is pointless.

M4= Short range carrier based fighter thats cheap and has decent front end damaage but low survivability without support. Good for chasing down and finishing off larger fighters as well as overwhelming opponents. Definitely needs to stay out of range of cap ships. The fact that damage and targeting subsystems doesn't really effect cap ships much really hurts the M4.

M3= Long Range fighter that works well solo or in groups. Good for patrols, defense, and projecting firepower where its needed.

M3+= Slower but more well rounded M3. Able to still outrun anything bigger than it but carries enough firepower to cover the shortage of decent M6 for patrols. Also strong enough for closing with capital ships to drop heavy ordiance.

I think with some of the new features mentioned in X:rebirth with targeting subsystems will actually give the M4 a lot more utility than current. If they can disable systems then those slow fat cap ships and heavy fighters will pay in much higher loses.

[Gazz]

Actually, they have two such features - cheap and fast. Just what you want in an expendable scout. :)

I dunno.
When I have a few Spitfires they are faster than any other M3 / M4 and can ignore all M5.
Fast enough to make speed irrelevant.
Also faster than all missiles that really hurt and a rear turret + 75 MJ shield to deal with the rest.
Pack a punch against bigger/slower ships, too, so the docking slots aren't wasted on "just" scouts.

M5 are cheap but have none of the useful qualities.
That's the bit that bugs me. The current ship class system does not allow to balance them.
Needs a more radical approach than shifting a few numbers around.

M4= Short range carrier based fighter thats cheap and has decent front end damaage but low survivability without support. Good for chasing down and finishing off larger fighters as well as overwhelming opponents.

I don't think you should ever design something around swarm tactics.
That leads to a numbers game where the one with the mostest automatically wins.
What's interesting about that?


M4 in an interceptor role (more missile bays / faster launch rate) - could be a start.
Real life interceptors are often faster than air superiority fighters and carry a higher missile load (see Mig-31).
OTOH, they are built for speed and capacity, not maneuverability. They would lose a dogfight.

If M4 had more launch bays and longer range missiles, but otherwise their current stats, they could be... useful.

The space superiority fighters would have more short range missiles (Sidewinder instead of AMRAAM...) but otherwise be the sturdy M3 they are now.
Better for escorting something or controlling a region of space.
Classic role. Useful.

[Nanook]

Actually, they have two such features - cheap and fast. Just what you want in an expendable scout.

I dunno.
When I have a few Spitfires they are faster than any other M3 / M4 and can ignore all M5.
Fast enough to make speed irrelevant.
Also faster than all missiles that really hurt and a rear turret + 75 MJ shield to deal with the rest.
Pack a punch against bigger/slower ships, too, so the docking slots aren't wasted on "just" scouts.

And the Spitfyres, just like their big brothers, the Springblossoms, are poorly balanced ships for the game, IMO. They're basically 'I Win' buttons that make most other ships obsolete and useless. Your example is more indicative of those two ships being poorly balanced than it is of the M5's being generally useless.

M5 are cheap but have none of the useful qualities....

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. I find M5's quite useful, especially in the early to mid game before I have explored all the sectors and have a comprehensive satellite network set up. Even later, I can find all kinds of tasks that the M5 is better at than any other ship. You just need to stop thinking of M5's as purely combat ships.

[Gazz]

I find M5's quite useful, especially in the early to mid game before I have explored all the sectors and have a comprehensive satellite network set up. Even later, I can find all kinds of tasks that the M5 is better at than any other ship. You just need to stop thinking of M5's as purely combat ships. :wink:

I would like to not think of them as combat ships but once the sat network is online... what's their purpose?
There is nothing left to scout. Only fight.

I just wish that in X:RB they'll have a purpose that does not simply vanish after the startup phase of the game.
Stealth / assassination type stuff, penetrating mobile sensor-nebulae... interesting abilities.


I also think that the current satellite implementation sucks.
Automatic omniscience. Boring.
It should rather work like an old impulse radar, rotating around it's axis maybe once every 5 minutes.
That would give you a "ping" of a ship / station, telling you roughly what size of object is there, but not specific data.
Pretty much like the BIER script.
The satellite could still have a short (5 km or so) true view range in addition to that.

Then scouts would become useful to get the "eyes on" data on these RADAR contacts.
Their purpose would not just go poof.

[StarTroll]

As Nanook says Spitfyres (and Springblossoms) are the perfect example of the Über ship that make all others look pitiful (the Hyperion does too).
Scouts are perfect for sectore exploration, satellite network laying, tagging potential capping targets, they make perfect evasive decoys when striking capships...

They have a lot of uses but people fail to see them due to either lack of imagination / needs, or no wish to be bothered with seemingly weak ships.
Sure as OOS fighters they are crappy, due to the mechanics, but tehy do pull their weight IS when chossing the right M5 (some are armed and shielded enough to survive an encounter). And a swarm tactics is actually totally viable as it make the ennemy lose focus and increases surival rate...well not when facing PSG boxes.

[Alan Phipps]

I like the use of fast scouts in a vanilla game because they report enemies arriving in sectors and generally keep out of trouble. Naturally if you also have a widespread satellite contact-reporting script in operation, then they may become redundant in later game.