[MOD] Ship Rebalance Mod ver 0.59 [30/08/2009] + 2 COCKPIT PACKS + Alkeena's BSD!!!!

[lrd99]

My proposal is this - TS be given at the most, 2x 200mj shields for the XL variants (SF and the like)
Other, smaller TS would receive 25mj shields putting them in the 75-125mj range.

For example, <4500: 75-125 (depend on size), 4500-8000: 1x200, >8000: 2x200. With rare exceptions for fun.

[someone else]

oooh... finally! some discussion on TS and TLs!

A 200.000Cr TS mounts 3х200 shields of 450.000Cr total cost? I don't think it's reasonable.

Very very good point. Now it is official: they have a bit too much shields.

Still I want them to have MORE shields than a M3+, just because... I think they need it .
TMs cost a fraction of their cost and have about half their cargo bay (about half of the standard TS) but can mount a couple 200 shields. Lots of people are using TMs as UT because they can survive long enough to jump away... and this clearly indicates that TS are a class that needs a shielding upgrade.
I have abused of my limitless powa' though... they have too much shielding now.

Let's see if this proposal looks better:
- TS that have 3 shields in Vanilla now get 1x200mj shields
- TS that have 4 shields in Vanilla now get 2x200mj shields
- TS that have 5 shields in Vanilla now get 3x200mj shields

And scaling up from vanilla the shield generator accordingly (dunno exactly but about doubling will do... I leave exact calculations to excel spreadsheet).
Maybe noone noticed but the generator is the same for most TS models, so a Mercury hauler has more shields and the same Mercury generator... so recharges shields slowly than a Mercury.

This leaves some exceptions like in Vanilla.

Now let's examine this proposal on a Teladi point of view (profitttttsssss):
-150.000 credits for a 200mj shield or 255.000 credits for 3x25mj shields? (75mj total)
1x200mj shield clearly wins on protection and on credits required.

-300.000 credits for a couple 200mj shields or 340.000 credits for 4x25mj
shields? (100mj total)
2x200mj shield clearly wins on protection and on credits required.

-450.000 credits for three 200mj shields or 425.000 credits for 5x25mj shields? (125mj total)
3x200mj shield clearly wins on protection and requires a trivial amount of credits more to provide a little less than 5 times the protection of the 5 25mj shields.

(they also may be called "tankers" for some reasons unknown for me).

Tankers are standard TS that use a different model, pretty much useless class imho.
couple screenies to see the difference:
Mercury, Mercury Tanker

TLs seem as tough as any capship

TLs are big as a Capital ship (some even more) and in this mod have high M7 levels of shielding (from Elephant that has Panther-Tiger-Shrike shields to Hercules that has Deimos levels of shielding). They cost a frikkin' lot (a little less than M7) so some good shields are handy to defend them (1.5 milions don't do much difference in price on a 28 milion ship). And the fact they are about ten times bigger than a Heavy M6 but have about the same shielding always bugged me.
Their weapon power generators suck so they are not able to kill a M7 (or more than 2-3 M6), so their bigger shielding does not trasform them into "poor man's Capital ships", but just let them live more safely. I just wanted to keep the level of TL owned by fighters to a minimum. And help those poor Nividium miners...

Still, do others think that TLs have too much shielding for ther role? do you think that the reasoning behind TL shielding is wrong/does not work/has side-effects?

[X2-Eliah]

Do the Tankers have the same pricetag as the normal ships? If their specs are almost equal, then perhaps the price needs to be made just as equal as well?

And your shield proposal certainly makes a lot of sense.

As for TLs, well, they are just the same size as destroyers, but have no (almost none, anyway) weaponry for defense, and a massive empty space (cargo bay). They can afford the shielding, they have the means to get the shielding, and they have the reason to get the shielding too - nothing screams target like a TL, especially if it is packed with goodies.

And, from a Teladi view, losing a 25mil ship due to saving 1 mil on shields is barely a good idea..

[lrd99]

TMs cost a fraction of their cost and have about half their cargo bay (about half of the standard TS) but can mount a couple 200 shields. Lots of people are using TMs as UT because they can survive long enough to jump away... and this clearly indicates that TS are a class that needs a shielding upgrade.

TM is a military vessel. Nothing wrong if it is shielded more than civilian one.

Let's see if this proposal looks better:
- TS that have 3 shields in Vanilla now get 1x200mj shields
- TS that have 4 shields in Vanilla now get 2x200mj shields
- TS that have 5 shields in Vanilla now get 3x200mj shields

Definitely better. But...

Maybe noone noticed but the generator is the same for most TS models, so a Mercury hauler has more shields and the same Mercury generator... so recharges shields slowly than a Mercury.

This is OK. Being in battle is not the meaning of TS. TS is shielded from some nasty occasions only and there is no reason in powerful and costly generators.

Now let's examine this proposal on a Teladi point of view (profitttttsssss):

You are right. Let's see further...

Why 7x25 is better for Teladi than 1x200? It's easy. Telady might install only one 25mj and save a half from 200mj. Is it so necessary to max out every stat of a ship?

So 7x25 may be cheaper than 1x200.

Personally, I have couple of standard TS with 1x25 for training CAGs and ESTs. It works.

Tankers are standard TS that use a different model, pretty much useless class imho.

That's why I said "reasons unknown". Where is the point, if stas are equal? I don't feel it.

Still, do others think that TLs have too much shielding for ther role? do you think that the reasoning behind TL shielding is wrong/does not work/has side-effects?

I do. I think about vanilla M7 shielding level. TLs just not required more for their role. Such shields save it from pirate wing or two, but if it get into a serious assault, it should be doomed. Or jumped. One or two 1Gj with TL's docked bodyguards (even drones) should do the trick.

[someone else]

TM is a military vessel. Nothing wrong if it is shielded more than civilian one.

nothing wrong with TM, I used TMs to say that people want a more shielded TS, ask in main forum "what is the best ship for UT?" you get mostly "Chokaro" or "Zephyrus"... not because they can load 4 fighters, not because they have a lot of cargo... only for their good shields. (and their good speed)

Telady might install only one 25mj and save a half from 200mj.

No problem, my proposal allows that. If our Teladi friend wants to load a 25 mj shield everything works fine, he can install one 5Mj or 1Mj shield too!
If he wants to load more than one 1Mj/5Mj/25Mj/200Mj shield... well he can't.

That's why I said "reasons unknown". Where is the point, if stas are equal? I don't feel it.

they cost exactly the same and have exactly the same stats as standard TS.
so they are asking to be modded ... maybe they get more speed (30-50 speed increase) and more manouverability (to let the AI handle better that speed increase... i don't wanna create kamikaze ships) at the price of some 500-1000 cargo bay? This should create something with stats similar to Vanilla TMs without fighter hangars, so the perfect ship for UTs. Looks cool to me.

Such shields save it from pirate wing or two, but if it get into a serious assault, it should be doomed.

Pirate WING? Vanilla shielding can save a TL from M5 and collisions only
(in my experience no TL survived a pirate wing more than 40 seconds, feel free to disagree and tell your story on TLs that survived a pirate wing).

I had a couple of Elephants sitting in a sector, 4 pirates were approaching, 1 Nova, 2 Blastclaws, 1 Elite. I was IS doing my shady business when I saw them.
I decided to watch them for testing purposes (I saved the game).
Those 4 managed to strip the first Elephant of its shielding and kill it in about 30 seconds. And a Vanilla Elephant has 1 Gj shielding. Bad thing.
I decided to see if I decided to jump out the other after they send me the "ship under attack" message and it made it with 30%-ish of hull left. Very bad thing.

My modded TLs do exactly what you said.
A wing of pirates or two kill it in 2 minutes or so,
a M6 can kill it but can be killed/suffer heavy damage in the process (it takes a lot of time due to the dumbness of AI pilot, if I'm manning the M6 the TL is fried in a minute or so),
a M7 strips its shields in 20-30 seconds... just the time to jump it to safety with some hull left.

yeah, never used bodiguards... no info on how a TL lasts if you launch drones or 4-5 fighters.

[lrd99]

nothing wrong with TM, I used TMs to say that people want a more shielded TS, ask in main forum "what is the best ship for UT?" you get mostly "Chokaro" or "Zephyrus"... not because they can load 4 fighters, not because they have a lot of cargo... only for their good shields. (and their good speed)

Oh, I see... But will a choice of TM in Mod be as attractive as before? I doubt. So freedom in selection will shrink a bit...

No problem, my proposal allows that.

Only in a captured/used TS. New ships are equipped at least 1x200 by default, as I remember. So the next question: is it possible to mod default configs in shipyards? And make a cheapest one really cheap?

so they are asking to be modded

You said.

... maybe they get more speed (30-50 speed increase) and more manouverability (to let the AI handle better that speed increase... i don't wanna create kamikaze ships) at the price of some 500-1000 cargo bay? This should create something with stats similar to Vanilla TMs without fighter hangars, so the perfect ship for UTs. Looks cool to me.

Or make them more/less cargo-upgradable with same starting cargo bay.
Personally I associate "tanker" with something big. So tankers, whistling as bullets all around, make me feel uneasy.

Pirate WING? Vanilla shielding can save a TL from M5 and collisions only
(in my experience no TL survived a pirate wing more than 40 seconds, feel free to disagree and tell your story on TLs that survived a pirate wing).

Maybe I was wrong. I never had TL assaulted by several M3(+)... I'd meant 2-3 M5 and one or two M4...

Where was TLs flaks? Was it equipped at all, or just shielded? What about pirates loses?

My modded TLs do exactly what you said.
A wing of pirates or two kill it in 2 minutes or so,
a M6 can kill it but can be killed/suffer heavy damage in the process (it takes a lot of time due to the dumbness of AI pilot, if I'm manning the M6 the TL is fried in a minute or so),
a M7 strips its shields in 20-30 seconds... just the time to jump it to safety with some hull left.
yeah, never used bodiguards... no info on how a TL lasts if you launch drones or 4-5 fighters.

Well... I think the whole arsenal should be tried first. Hm... Elefant with 14 eclipses onboard may be tricky target. Poor pirates...
Look like TLs shields would better be increased, but x4 is too much imho.

[someone else]

But will a choice of TM in Mod be as attractive as before? I doubt. So freedom in selection will shrink a bit...

not sure of having understood that... anyways TM should really need a bit more useful differences between races, now there are only 2 that are worth considering (Chokaro and Zephyrus) while the others are inferior in most respects.
TMs, as you said, are Military ships, not meant to be UT. Anyways we'll see.

New ships are equipped at least 1x200 by default

nope. in shipyards you find 3 versiond of the ship (S/M/L), each one with different equipment (same ship but different things sold with it). The S version should have 1x1Mj shield (if it is not a BigShip = M6 TL M1 M2 M7), and will remain cheap as chips. The M version will have 1x5Mj or 1x25Mj sheild and a crap weapon. The L version will have 1x200Mj shield and a crap weapon.
mhhh... this means that if you are in desperate need for a 200Mj shield you can go buy a L freighter... cool.

Personally I associate "tanker" with something big

mmh... true. but they will have speeds ranging from 140 to 160 to be good profit makers with 1000 or so less cargo bay. It is easy enough to mod the standard version (i.e. Mercury) and leave the Tanker (i.e. Mercury Tanker) as it is. No problem.

I'd meant 2-3 M5 and one or two M4...

yep, Vanilla TL can stand that, the problem is that in my game there are more patrols composed by 2 M3 and 3 M4 than a M4 and some M5.

Elephants in my test were fully equipped with more than enough weapons and featured MARS (so the turrets worked at peak efficiency) the one that died managed to damage the hull of the Nova but died before killing it, Blastclaws were at low shields but no damage. The other Elephant killed the Elite before jumping.

With this mod installed (and the correct shields loaded) the pirates dead were a lot more, from the initial wing (another one, not the same of the previous test) of 4 Blastclaws and 2 Nova + some M4 there were only 2 Blastclaws and a damaged M4 left when the Elephant went BOOM.

Hm... Elefant with 14 eclipses onboard may be tricky target.

hmmmm... 14 naked eclipses cost about 74.987.080 credits (yeah! 75 milions!). not to mention the indicible pain caused by fully equip them... noone will ever use 14 eclipses to protect a 17 milion TL ... it is like protecting a hen house with a tank battalion. The same applies to having 14 M3, they cost more than the TL.

Look like TLs shields would better be increased, but x4 is too much imho.

I got your point, but my tests show that I reached my objective of increasing survivability with this. I don't think that a Vanilla TL with fighters could do better (their AI is sooo poor...).
Anyways what are the the confugurations (shield/fighters) you think best for TL to survive moderate fighter and maybe a couple M6 attacks?

[The Invader Zim]

nope. in shipyards you find 3 versiond of the ship (S/M/L), each one with different equipment (same ship but different things sold with it). The S version should have 1x1Mj shield (if it is not a BigShip = M6 TL M1 M2 M7), and will remain cheap as chips.

wrong. If it can carry a 200mj shield or better than will the S version have a 200mj shield.
This has nothing to do with the ship type. It depends on the shield type

[someone else]

damn.. I haven't bought a TS these days... so our Teladi friend has a problem.

S= 200mj shields
M= 200Mj shields
L= 200Mj shields

[The Invader Zim]

1.Springblossom's speed tuned down to 250, price up to around 35 milions, front weapons down to 6.

Can you check that someone else? The Production RelVal is still 89890 like in the 08.cat.
Version 0.54

[lrd99]

not sure of having understood that... anyways TM should really need a bit more useful differences between races, now there are only 2 that are worth considering (Chokaro and Zephyrus) while the others are inferior in most respects.
TMs, as you said, are Military ships, not meant to be UT. Anyways we'll see.

I've said about motives of using TM as UT. In vanilla it's worth thinking about. With modded shields definitely not. But I'm not sure it is a loss.
Personally I don't like using military ships as traders, so never had.

New ships are equipped at least 1x200 by default...
nope. in shipyards you find 3 versiond of the ship (S/M/L)

Yeap. Just checked. Even S goes with 1x200.
The picture is:
- Argon, Paranid and Teladi: S=1x200, M and L = max200. No weapon at all. So M and L cost equally.
- Split: S=1x200, no weapon. M=max200 and scrap weapon. L=max200 and best weapon possible.

All transports in game (TS, TP, TM) in all versions goes with at least 1x200.

New game was started with 0.53. None other mods and scripts changing shipyards installed.

mhhh... this means that if you are in desperate need for a 200Mj shield you can go buy a L freighter... cool.

Lets say - if you are in desperate need for a 25Mj, the only way is to buy S, sell 200 at shipyard ang buy 25 somewhere. It's solution, but looks like scratching left ear with right hand.

but they will have speeds ranging from 140 to 160 to be good profit makers with 1000 or so less cargo bay. It is easy enough to mod the standard version (i.e. Mercury) and leave the Tanker (i.e. Mercury Tanker) as it is. No problem.

How they will differ from TPs? (Remember Angels)

hmmmm... 14 naked eclipses cost about 74.987.080 credits (yeah! 75 milions!).

Yes. But how about some fun? Jumping out and shouting "surprise!".

I got your point, but my tests show that I reached my objective of increasing survivability with this. I don't think that a Vanilla TL with fighters could do better (their AI is sooo poor...).
Anyways what are the the confugurations (shield/fighters) you think best for TL to survive moderate fighter and maybe a couple M6 attacks?

Ok. I don't think fighter hangars need to be changed. As for shields, 2Gj is enough in most cases, and 3Gj only for largest TL (like Mamoth).

A lone TL shouldn't survive a couple M6 attack. Only win some time to jump, if it will be lucky. As for moderate fighters, I think TL should have 50/50 chances against up to 3 M4. Maybe fighters weapon should be lowered by weapon mod.

[someone else]

they weren't bugs... they were easter eggs!

time for bug-hunting!:
-fixed the Nemesis and heavy nemesis entry, I had copy/pasted there dragon heavy dragon, result? they did not show up anymore in shipyards and they looked like dragon/heavy dragon.
-fixed the Heavy centaur and heavy proto, now they mount the PALC only on main... those nasty turrets...
-fixed the Dragon/heavy dragon turnings.
-fixed the springblossom price.
-fixed the fighter capacity of M1. (they should be able to load 10 more fighters than Vanilla M1s)

some reported things that aren't bugs:
-terran M6 cannot mount experimental weapons, you know... terrans are paranoid... and the fact of being able to mount SSC (a instant-hit instant-kill weapon) makes them cool enough. (the vidar is cool as it is, no SSC for it)
-goner ozias with 8x200mj shields. This bugger is invincible and as such will never respawn with the correct shields, in any case he cannot die/be boarded so he can live very well with these shields.

some things that still need a fix but no idea on how to do it:
-"shipyard that equips TS with 200mj shields on all versions" It is stupid but I want to fix the shipyard, not having the TS that must use 25Mj shields.

Thanks to: X2 Eliah and The Invader Zim for their bug findings.
uploaded fixed version, please post other bugs if you find them.

[The Invader Zim]

I guess that is an easter egg

[ external image ]



You need to change the RelVal NCP for a price change, or I need to check my eyes

Edit: Just changed RelVal NPC^^ its working for me

[someone else]

cool. fixed. uploaded fixed version.

[JrK]

This version overrides Cmod3's changes to lasers and I believe missiles too.

What's up doc?

[someone else]

I'll ask draffut what the heck he did to Tbullets, it is the only conflicting file. no Tmissiles anywhere.

hope this storm of bugs/issues end soon... I wanna get back to Modding...

EDIT: draffut's mistake while adding files to his mod. I'm killing that Tbullets file. download will be ready in minutes.

[someone else]

ok, so back to modding.

for now we have 1 unsolved issue: the 200mj shields in TS ships.
noone answered me so I assume it is a stupid hardcoded thing.
3 possible solutions:
-make TS mount 25mj shields (but able to use 7-8 of them depending on the ship)
-make TS cost less to compensate the 200mj shield price
-leave them as they are

another thing that is worth a talk is the TMs, for now we have only 2 TMs worth considering. (Chokaro and Zephyrus)
Any idea on how to make them more different and more useful?

was thinking of modifying the Tanker version of TS that has the exact same stats and price of standard TS and making it a fast freighter: speed ranging from 140 to 160 with 2000-2500 cargo bay.
maybe I'll look if there is a better suited entry for its name and description in t files.

[Gazz]

Why not make the tanker a real tanker?

It might be faster than average but has cargo class S so it can only load EC (and a few other small goods).

A specialised TS, not just a smaller one. It should still have a normal cargo bay of 7-10000. Maybe even more because it's just a tanker and doesn't need the internal installations to handle mixed cargo.

[lrd99]

Agreed with Gazz. Such tankers may be very useful in complexes.

About shields.
Is it possible to mod standard TS to carry up to 5x25, medium sized TS only 1x200 and huge ones (like Boron or Otas) up to 2x200? I think it will be reasonable solution of S/M/L problem. Who cares if 2.000.000 TS is already equipped with two shields?

[JrK]

The Tanker idea is pretty cool. I'd also suggest giving the TS ships just 200Mj shields like it is now but no more than 3x. Maybe give the ultra fast like the Caiman (iirc) max 6x25. The price adjustment could be done but I'd think paying MORE for MORE quality TS is not a problem at all.

As far as my experiences with the new TS go, I gotta say these are a LOT harder to pirate. But somewhere that makes it more fun.