Split from X-Rebirth Steam poll thread - Round 2

[TEKing66]

Have been following this thread from it's start. And I have voted and posted several times. Also, I understand Egosoft's desire behind only having one "version" to patch. This is logical. But, if there is a release for Windows, Mac, Playstation and Xbox, isn't that four versions to keep track of and keep patched? Would patching a non-Steam version be that much more of a hassle?

I work as a Mechanical Designer for a firm that design machines for sevreral companies. And it is not an uncommon request from our customers to have use do multiple designs for a machine, even though one design will most likely suffice there needs. But, we have never told our customers "No, you will get what we design for and nothing more!".
If we did I am sure our business would be hurt by doing that. Our customers desire choice, and it is our job to provide that choice. Does it make my job more difficult? Absolutely, I would much rather do one design as to do two, three or four designs. However, it is my job to make the customer happy, so I do my designs and get on with it.

Now before anyone flames me, let me assure you that I understand this may or may not have anything to do with the Steam issue. And, it probably has nothing to do with what DS and Ego want or will do. But still it does state a fact that people like having a choice, if they do not have that choice then those customers will just walk away.

If I had a choice of dial-up or broadband, yes I would choose broadband.
But, there I have no choice, so I am stuck with dial-up. I have tried using Steam (with my lowly dial-up) and it simply is not a feasible solution for me. So, If DS and Ego do decide to go Steam only, then my only choice is to walk away. But, I feel it is a choice that I am being forced into making. Even though it is not the choice I really want to make. And I truly am a fan of the X series and have been since X-BTF first was released. No other , and I repeat, No other game has held my attention the way Egosoft's games have. Now, I feel as though my loyalty has all been for nothing. And I understand that Egosoft owes me nothing and that there will more than likely be dozens of customers to replace me. I am but one person on a planet with billions, hence for all intents and purposes I and my thoughts mean nothing.

Now I will assume that my thoughts and arguments are mostly unwanted, unrequested and undesired. So, I will just go away and leave everyone to it. Happy new year and best wishes to all.

[AkrionXxarr]

And we're back to discussing completely arbitrary 'rights' again with the occasional hint of "I'm a supporter of choice, so I'm going to tell Egosoft what to choose so that I can have choice" .. (Not referring to anybody specifically, just the general direction the conversation has been going the past couple pages).

[Gavrushka]

Egosoft haven't let their fans down in the past, with continued support and attempting to provide the things they ask for. Doesn't mean they will be able to this time. As has been mentioned many times - this is Deepsilver's choice (altho Egosoft say they are quite happy about it - and it does give them advantages).

...However, those who are wanting to see all media delivered in the traditional boxed form must surely see that this is never going to happen. - The tide bore no malice for King Canute, but nor did it turn at his demand.

No, but Canute had no influence on the tide at all (and that was sort of the point he was trying to make!). Where as punters do have some influence on the delivery methods used by retailers. Are there enough who will refuse Steam to keep boxed (non online account tied) versions of PC games mainstream? I would doubt it, but then I would have not predicted >30% of responders to this poll (even considering its limited audience) to say they wouldn't use it.

We'll have to wait and see on that one. But people have been predicting music downloads will kill of CD sales (and before that CD sales killing LP which still hasn't completely died!) but CDs still outsell download albums by nearly a factor of 5...

People do like to have something to hold for what they purchase. And I always buy CDs rather than download albums - purely because I can rip it how I like without restriction...

But then I also use Steam - I just like a choice

Tim

Perkint... The metaphor was of progress not influence! Steam is an evolution of software delivery, and you cannot halt progress, although I'd still like the choice- I prefer a boxed version, and I've made that clear in earlier posts... - Nice, put unecessary pedantic semantics!

There will, over time, be more 'Steam only' releases... But I am sure it will be a long, long time, if ever, before boxed versions disappear entirely.

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

I have no problem with Steam as an online store and I have a high speed Internet connection as well. It works quite well, maybe except for the last 3 weeks where they had various server downs in my region, probably due to the massive prices reductions and Christmas sales.
Anyway, I bought over 70 games on Steam, more than 30 alone this year through Steam, but I tell you that none of these games was over 10 €. The average price is around 6-7 € for a Steam purchase I would say. The majority of sales comes from 50-75 % off-sales which in the end can not be in the sense of the publisher.

But it IS in the interests of the publisher or they wouldn't be doing it. It's very simple, the majority of game sales are made in the first few weeks of release. People that have been waiting on the game to be released are going to buy it on day one, at full price.

After day one release there is a rapid decline in sales until it reaches a bottom level. Physical retail outlets aren't interested in giving shelf space that they could be using to generate a high volume sale to a title that is now only selling a couple of copies a month so they will not stock it which further impacts potential sales.

Promotions such as Steam runs with their 50% deals are like a second release. It gets the title out there for minimum cost to the publisher. A lot of people that might otherwise not have bought the game at full retail price, like you, are willing to give it try at reduced price.

This benefits the publishers in several ways because a game that's not selling any units gives less return than a game that is selling units at half price. Being on Steam such promotions can be rerun at periodic intervals, like Christmas for example, which further boosts sales. People that buy the product, even at a discount price, might decide they like the franchise and will in the future be a full-price customer. How many here for example got into the X-series halfway through at X2, liked it and bought Reunion as a result?

Bottom line. If you're someone that would buy a game at release price then you would have done so. If you're someone that is happy to wait for games to come down in price then you'll do that anyway. There's no functional difference between buying a Steam promoted game at 50% off or picking yourself up a copy out of the bargain bin at Gamestop.

I work as a Mechanical Designer for a firm that design machines for sevreral companies. And it is not an uncommon request from our customers to have use do multiple designs for a machine, even though one design will most likely suffice there needs. But, we have never told our customers "No, you will get what we design for and nothing more!".
If we did I am sure our business would be hurt by doing that. Our customers desire choice, and it is our job to provide that choice. Does it make my job more difficult? Absolutely, I would much rather do one design as to do two, three or four designs. However, it is my job to make the customer happy, so I do my designs and get on with it.

Now before anyone flames me, let me assure you that I understand this may or may not have anything to do with the Steam issue. And, it probably has nothing to do with what DS and Ego want or will do. But still it does state a fact that people like having a choice, if they do not have that choice then those customers will just walk away.

There is a substantial difference there. If you and your company are designing machines for a customer on an a per-order basis then if the customer decides he wants it painted blue then you paint it blue.

If however you were designing machines for general retail sales you'd design them the way YOU wanted them and then people that like them in green would buy green ones while people that preferred blue might not. If enough people like your machine and aren't that concerned what colour it is you make your money.

Likewise Egosoft are designing the game THEY want the way THEY want it and then releasing it to the public and that will appeal to some and of course not to others for various different reasons. Those that like will buy, those that don't won't.

My vote: full steam ahead. In fact I rarely buy any games these days that are not on steam, especially since impulse went all bad and rotten.

Epic win!

Steam+Rebirth = FULL STEAM AHEAD!

[quase]

@Slug
The problem with the sales may be escalating though if I listen to the people around me and the typically climate on the forums all over the net.
The first weeks sales may drop because more and more people know for sure that they only have to wait for a few weeks until the game will be reduced drastically on Steam or anywhere else. Steam makes it easier to track these sales than the old fashioned re-release on the shelves as Gold/Platinum versions. It supports and teaches this kind of buying scheme to the consumer very well.
Many people also become aware these days that with waiting a bit, they usually do not only get the games much cheaper, but they also get a bug-reduced game with the first few patches included. How many day-one patches have we seen lately.

I could not care less if digital distribution is the future or not, I do not necessarily need a physical copy, but account binding surely should not be the future. After I downloaded a game, it should not be bound and using any third party software (except for the OS of course). The alternative solution for me considering account binding is lowering my budget and again Steam makes it very convenient for me to get the games I want for I price I can accept. Anyway, it is only Steam that is driving this price because I would have no problem with 100 € for a game without account binding or DRM-restrictions. Bind a game to an account and the price drops below 10 €.
I am strange with things I love because I am a stubborn and huffish kind of person. For Egosoft and the X-series I may as well say: "I won't ever buy X Rebirth if it is bound to Steam." Albion Prelude has made me think so, but it may change with the retail release of the expansion next year.

[Pesanur]

But it IS in the interests of the publisher or they wouldn't be doing it. It's very simple, the majority of game sales are made in the first few weeks of release. People that have been waiting on the game to be released are going to buy it on day one, at full price.

After day one release there is a rapid decline in sales until it reaches a bottom level. Physical retail outlets aren't interested in giving shelf space that they could be using to generate a high volume sale to a title that is now only selling a couple of copies a month so they will not stock it which further impacts potential sales.

Promotions such as Steam runs with their 50% deals are like a second release. It gets the title out there for minimum cost to the publisher. A lot of people that might otherwise not have bought the game at full retail price, like you, are willing to give it try at reduced price.

This benefits the publishers in several ways because a game that's not selling any units gives less return than a game that is selling units at half price. Being on Steam such promotions can be rerun at periodic intervals, like Christmas for example, which further boosts sales. People that buy the product, even at a discount price, might decide they like the franchise and will in the future be a full-price customer. How many here for example got into the X-series halfway through at X2, liked it and bought Reunion as a result?

Bottom line. If you're someone that would buy a game at release price then you would have done so. If you're someone that is happy to wait for games to come down in price then you'll do that anyway. There's no functional difference between buying a Steam promoted game at 50% off or picking yourself up a copy out of the bargain bin at Gamestop.

But the difference is that with Steam the user is linked to the retailer, their cannot reinstall the game without the retailer, their cannont path the game wiwhout the retailer, etc.

I'm know that this has been previously discussed, but one good solution is to shell the game in GOG after the fisrt year.

The worst of Steam is that their has put into fashion those DRMs that force the user to give their data in order to play the game that their have purchased.

[dougeye]

in regards to steam and being permanently linked to steam i dont see the issue??

it the same as buying an xbox game and being permanently linked to microsoft, you will always have to play the game on a microsoft platform which is currently the xbox 360.

its not like i can take a xbox game and place it in my pc and play i am forever linked to playing the game on a microsoft console which is the same as being linked to steam and forever having to play a steam game on a pc with the steam client installed, and dont forget i can have steam on 10 pc's if i want all linked to the one account and i can then play my games on any of them!

edit - one pc at a time of course!

[TEKing66]

The ONLY issue I have with it is the fact that it doesn't work with my dial-up connection. And, unfortunately, I can not get broadband in my area.
I have tried it, and Steam is telling me I will need to download 1 gig of data for the game I installed from a DVD. I'm fine with that, I'm just not fine with it taking me another 50 days to do that.

[quase]

The issue of account binding is trivial. You can put your XBox game in any XBox and it will run without you having to activate the game or registering it. You can give away games you do not need anymore (e.g. to friends or the public library). You can lend your games to a friend without telling them your online account login. You can share games in your family or with your friends.

Sure you can have one and the same game installed on various PCs with Steam, but I fail to see the purpose of doing so. You cannot share your account, so either somebody uses your account being offline or you won't be able to play any game on your account. You said it yourself, you cannot use the account at the same time on more than one PC.

Two examples that show the downside of this account binding and client software system that Steam uses.

First and a really annoying problem is that you cannot play games while they are being updated or while there is another title being downloaded. The downloads stop automatically if you start a game or the game is being put on hold to start during an update. There is just no download going on in the background. Sure you can deactivate all the downloads, but than your game is never being updated. So when I download and install X3 directly from Steam for example, I can not play any other game from Steam for the next 2-5 hours (depending on the Steam server speed) until the 7-8 GB are downloaded. Time that I could have played another game rather than looking at the download bar to fill.

Second big problem is that with the account binding you cannot share games effectively in your family. I have two PC and a tablet here used by various members of the family, but only one PC is capable of playing modern games. Now I have also a lot of small titles for the tablet on my Steam account (e.g. Crayon Physics). Thankfully most of these smaller titles do not really need to be online and I can deal with the offline mode of Steam, but I would rather have liked to see them online as well because I have payed for the full functionality of these games as well. Steam is preventing me to go online at the same time with the same account on different PCs, so I have to decide who can be online or not. It is not just annoying, this restriction put in place here is denying my right to use the payed software. I did not know that I have effectively not bought various license for all my different games, but one license for all my games. I can only play one game at the same time, although I should be able to play all of them at same time, reasonable or not of course.

[Slashman]

First and a really annoying problem is that you cannot play games while they are being updated or while there is another title being downloaded. The downloads stop automatically if you start a game or the game is being put on hold to start during an update. There is just no download going on in the background.

Actually you can download and play at the same time. Simply alt-tab out of the game and right-click on the game in your library. Choose pause update and then right-click and choose resume updating and the download will continue.

I do agree that its weird they didn't include a simpler way of playing and downloading at the same time...but its very much possible to do so with no downside. Everyone I've shown this to has had it work for them...so I feel pretty safe to say it should work for everyone. A nice option on the settings page would be nice though.

[Shugreid]

I used to have Steam, I don’t anymore.
But then I am older now.
I am on this thread simply to campaign for the Steamless DVD option with likeminded players/fans.
I understand the frustration of non-steam voters by the posts I read. I assume because like me they don’t have AB and are campaigning for it on a DVD without Steam.
What I don’t understand on this thread is the amount of Pro-Steam posts and astonishing amount of Pro-Steam Technical information being posted. I just don’t understand why you do it.
My motivation is, I want a DVD. What is yours, to help deny me the DVD? Why.
If you have AP why are you wasting time saying and not playing? If I had it I would be playing.
I see this thread as an attempt to change the minds of the publishers to allow the steam free option, not to tell you that you should not have a Steam option. A third of the voters used this thread to say that simple thing. No Steam Please.
Happy New Year to all my fellow players Steam or no.

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

What I don’t understand on this thread is the amount of Pro-Steam posts and astonishing amount of Pro-Steam Technical information being posted. I just don’t understand why you do it.

Very simply, to correct the gross misrepresentation, misinformation and ridiculous scare stories that have been so casually thrown about by a few people so that those forum members who might be in the position of being unsure whether or not they wish to adopt the Steam route can make an informed decision and are given any technical support they might need while they do so.

Several have elected to do so and post their findings and, pleasingly, so far seem to be having a generally good experience.

Steam+Rebirth = FULL STEAM AHEAD!

[TEKing66]

Yet there are still those of us that all of the Tech support, good info, and even after giving Steam a well rounded try still can not make use of the service. Hence the need for a non-steam version. Yet none of the non-pro-Steamers have said that the pro-Steam crowd should NOT have what they want. If you want Steam then by all means use it. But, trying to negate anyone's reason for not wanting it with ridicule will not solve any problems.

All we are asking is that our voices be heard. Even though we know that our cries are, more than likely, falling on deaf ears.

[Shugreid]

So out of the need for you to correct all the (gross misrepresentation, misinformation and ridiculous scare stories) you don’t consider that some of us tried it and dumped it for our own reasons. All of which have been put in this thread.
I myself use Game to download some good games. My connection is bad but it worked. I bought the game, downloaded installed and registered.
Guess what, no further contact with Game required, unless I want to download it again.
No obligatory or otherwise Game Programmes dumped on my computer by them.
No further internet connection required.
Just the game on my laptop nothing else.
Apart from the download problem just like a DVD, almost.
Why Does Steam do the opposite?
As far as scare stories are concerned, I have heard of and have had my information shared between companies not of my choosing, including the need to uncheck the box routine to share said information. Not surprising then that I do not want unknown programmes on my computer. I do not trust without reservation, youth does, age knows better.
Steam + Rebirth = BYE BYE!

[Cycrow]

steams not exactly some unknown program thou, you obviously know what it is, so how can it be unknown ?

im sure u have other software on your system that you even less aware of than steam that could have easily have be installed along with a dvd game

besides, how can you possibly know that steam has passed your information on to someone else

[Slashman]

steams not exactly some unknown program thou, you obviously know what it is, so how can it be unknown ?

im sure u have other software on your system that you even less aware of than steam that could have easily have be installed along with a dvd game

besides, how can you possibly know that steam has passed your information on to someone else

That's what I'd like to know. I've never heard of Steam passing info to someone else that they haven't made public with their surveys.

[Nova Scotia]

steams not exactly some unknown program thou, you obviously know what it is, so how can it be unknown ?

im sure u have other software on your system that you even less aware of than steam that could have easily have be installed along with a dvd game

besides, how can you possibly know that steam has passed your information on to someone else

That's what I'd like to know. I've never heard of Steam passing info to someone else that they haven't made public with their surveys.

Hard to believe Steam,Google,Microsoft,Amazon,Isp,Sony,Apple and all the rest of the internet business would use or share your personal information .
Guess Steam is a lot more trust worthy than the rest

[Cycrow]

steams not exactly some unknown program thou, you obviously know what it is, so how can it be unknown ?

im sure u have other software on your system that you even less aware of than steam that could have easily have be installed along with a dvd game

besides, how can you possibly know that steam has passed your information on to someone else

That's what I'd like to know. I've never heard of Steam passing info to someone else that they haven't made public with their surveys.

Hard to believe Steam,Google,Microsoft,Amazon,Isp,Sony,Apple and all the rest of the internet business would use or share your personal information .
Guess Steam is a lot more trust worthy than the rest

actually its more to the point that all these companies and more do it, but yet steam is being singled out.
especially as theres no real way to prove whos passed your data around

its like just pointing the finger at steam simply because they dont like steam and/or valve

[Nova Scotia]

steams not exactly some unknown program thou, you obviously know what it is, so how can it be unknown ?

im sure u have other software on your system that you even less aware of than steam that could have easily have be installed along with a dvd game

besides, how can you possibly know that steam has passed your information on to someone else

That's what I'd like to know. I've never heard of Steam passing info to someone else that they haven't made public with their surveys.

Hard to believe Steam,Google,Microsoft,Amazon,Isp,Sony,Apple and all the rest of the internet business would use or share your personal information .
Guess Steam is a lot more trust worthy than the rest

actually its more to the point that all these companies and more do it, but yet steam is being singled out.
especially as theres no real way to prove whos passed your data around

its like just pointing the finger at steam simply because they dont like steam and/or valve

Funny from this side of the coin, it seems that pro Steam members are taken aback at the idea and need proof that there is a possibility that Steam could be gathering personal infol for there data base or for resale but would not have any doubt that others are doing so without need of proof

Happy new Years

[Slashman]

steams not exactly some unknown program thou, you obviously know what it is, so how can it be unknown ?

im sure u have other software on your system that you even less aware of than steam that could have easily have be installed along with a dvd game

besides, how can you possibly know that steam has passed your information on to someone else

That's what I'd like to know. I've never heard of Steam passing info to someone else that they haven't made public with their surveys.

Hard to believe Steam,Google,Microsoft,Amazon,Isp,Sony,Apple and all the rest of the internet business would use or share your personal information .
Guess Steam is a lot more trust worthy than the rest

actually its more to the point that all these companies and more do it, but yet steam is being singled out.
especially as theres no real way to prove whos passed your data around

its like just pointing the finger at steam simply because they dont like steam and/or valve

Funny from this side of the coin, it seems that pro Steam members are taken aback at the idea and need proof that there is a possibility that Steam could be gathering personal infol for there data base or for resale but would not have any doubt that others are doing so without need of proof

Happy new Years

The original post said Steam gathered personal data and passed it on to another company(or that this was its intention). No one here is saying Steam doesn't gather usage data and(when you opt in to the hardware survey) data about your PC configuration.

I'm asking about the passing on of personal information to another company.

You're boycotting Steam, but you're not boycotting Microsoft, Google, Yahoo, Amazon or any other online business with which you have contact everyday. That's not even counting the huge number of malicious programs just floating around the net which could attack your system from any website you choose to browse.

So no, its not a matter of not believing that Steam collects data when you use it. It's a matter of the concept that because its Steam, its somehow worse than all the others.