Round 4 of Would you use Steam for Rebirth thread

[Tycow]

I bet this thread (or a later iteration of it) will still be going after Rebirth is released.

[ConCorDian]

I think a major reason for this is that the current console generation is a bit obsolete by now. As soon as the PS4 and the XBOX720 hit, the publishers will declare PC gaming dead again...

not really, from my understanding of it the reason PC gaming started to drop off so much is because of piracy, obviously for the most part games are developed on PC's so when they were distributed on PC's they were easier to break and copy... whereas on consoles they were re-coded (or coded on specialist software) for distribution, meaning there was additional layers of coding to break in order to copy and redistribute the games.

now a day with thanks to the likes of Steam (like them or not these types of distribution are helping) security is getting better on PC again, and regardless what type of console you like they cant compete with the PC for overall gaming ability. albiet they do have their drawbacks that consoles dont have (mainly combatibility issues) but thats minor imo to the sheer interaction you can get from a PC compaired to a console....

then once you factor in the other functions of a PC, such as its educational benifits (porn ) it becomes a bit of a no brainer, and i dont think its really something that can be debated too much....

also take into account perhaps not the new generations of consoles we are to expect next but the ones after that they are looking at cloud based distribution similar to Steam as well with no disks.... i think thats when PC's will see a return, whats the point in a console that is outdated compaired to a PC when its released to play games in the exact same way as you would on the PC when the PC has additional benifits as well? imo i think what the future holds is Playstation and XBox could become new varients of Steam, games will be released coded to a specific cloud system and rather than buy a console you will subscibe to a cloud system on your PC.

[Slashman]

not really, from my understanding of it the reason PC gaming started to drop off so much is because of piracy, obviously for the most part games are developed on PC's so when they were distributed on PC's they were easier to break and copy... whereas on consoles they were re-coded (or coded on specialist software) for distribution, meaning there was additional layers of coding to break in order to copy and redistribute the games.

Your understanding of it is wrong, I'm sorry to say. It's a numbers thing. Consoles got popular and that audience got bigger. That's the whole bottom line. Some publishers and some developers have been using the 'piracy scare' as both an excuse for shoddy PC support and to defend themselves against scrutiny when their games don't sell.

It absolutely doesn't hold up in the face of successful titles like the The Witcher 2, Half-Life series, Portal series, Left 4 Dead series and the numerous successful indie games that have sold so well and demonstrated that PC gaming is as alive as it ever was. But the type of audience is still mostly the same: Valuing substance over flash and fluff. It is generally the polar opposite of the console generation in that respect.

now a day with thanks to the likes of Steam (like them or not these types of distribution are helping) security is getting better on PC again, and regardless what type of console you like they cant compete with the PC for overall gaming ability. albiet they do have their drawbacks that consoles dont have (mainly combatibility issues) but thats minor imo to the sheer interaction you can get from a PC compaired to a console....

I agree with you that PCs provide a superior gaming experience. You can't match their flexibility or power.

then once you factor in the other functions of a PC, such as its educational benifits (porn ) it becomes a bit of a no brainer, and i dont think its really something that can be debated too much....

Again I agree...well maybe not about the porn=educational benefit.

imo i think what the future holds is Playstation and XBox could become new varients of Steam, games will be released coded to a specific cloud system and rather than buy a console you will subscibe to a cloud system on your PC.

That's up for debate. It might happen, but the industry is still shifting as we speak. Things like Kickstarter are seeing many games that publishers would never touch being made and proving that people in the PC audience want more of the things that make the PC unique(like deep RPGs and strategy games). I'm not sure that these kind of things mesh all that well with the console crowd, to be honest.

[StarSword]

There are several genres that PCs will always, IMO, be superior to consoles at, due largely to the finer control you get with a mouse and keyboard instead of a game controller. Tactical RPGs (especially d20-based ones like Planescape: Torment, Neverwinter Nights, KOTOR, etc.), because there's too many options. RTS titles (ditto, plus you have to be able to get to places fast; there's a reason the N64 port of StarCraft didn't sell).

And of course, complicated space simulators like the X series. These games are made to be played with some combination of mouse, keyboard, and joystick. There just aren't enough buttons on an Xbox controller.

[Sibilantae]

There are several genres that PCs will always, IMO, be superior to consoles at, due largely to the finer control you get with a mouse and keyboard instead of a game controller. Tactical RPGs (especially d20-based ones like Planescape: Torment, Neverwinter Nights, KOTOR, etc.), because there's too many options. RTS titles (ditto, plus you have to be able to get to places fast; there's a reason the N64 port of StarCraft didn't sell).

And of course, complicated space simulators like the X series. These games are made to be played with some combination of mouse, keyboard, and joystick. There just aren't enough buttons on an Xbox controller.

Yes. I do think RTSs are the quintessential PC games. I can't think of any truly successful RTS title on console (I don't know how successful Supreme Commander was on xbox, but I would think it did much better on PC).

Likewise, there are also titles that just do better on console - they're not as flat-out unportable as most RTSs are, but still - the Metal Gear Solid games, the Final Fantasy games, certain types of racing games, and so on. With such varied markets between platforms, no wonder they perform differently.

[WEIRDANIMATOR]

I think a major reason for this is that the current console generation is a bit obsolete by now. As soon as the PS4 and the XBOX720 hit, the publishers will declare PC gaming dead again...

That was said when the first PlayStation came out and it was wrong then too.

The PC is the only gaming system that is constantly evolving, getting better and better. Developers never need to worry about hardware requirements until they're ready to release the game as there will always be people out there with a PC good enough. With the consoles your product must work within specific constraints. Only when the developers had reached the limit of what the PlayStation could do did the PS2 come out.

The software of current console games never mind PC games isn't pushing the hardware to its limits the way it used to, It takes so long so develop something that pushes the envelope now that it doesn't matter if the hardware is obsolete.

The PS3 and the XBOX360 are both milti-core bits of kit and games that are designed from the ground up to use more than one core are still quite recent (past couple of years compared to the 8 or so years the hardware's been kicking about) with most developers using an old engine with a not very efficient multi threading patch

The only real limitation in games design now is how long are you willing to spend working on it and how much space (Gb's) do you have to work with

Back to Steam,

Why if you don't have multiplayer would you need to use steam or anything like it?
The need to periodically log in to steam or not be able to play your games even if you don't need a net connection to play the game seems like madness to me.

If steam is just for distribution you could easily keep distribution and sales in house from this site with a p2p link only accessible from here after the sale is made and a demo on as many other sites as you can get it onto even if that includes steam

[Fallent]

Would gladly use Steam for Rebirth. I can foresee this being a game with tons of updates, bug fixes and DLC. Steam would make the entire process easy peasy.

[Burneyx]

And of course, complicated space simulators like the X series. These games are made to be played with some combination of mouse, keyboard, and joystick. There just aren't enough buttons on an Xbox controller.

Sure

This:
http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=166169

and this:
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/11 ... -for-xbox/
but never released.

[Sibilantae]

And of course, complicated space simulators like the X series. These games are made to be played with some combination of mouse, keyboard, and joystick. There just aren't enough buttons on an Xbox controller.

Sure

This:
http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=166169

and this:
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/11 ... -for-xbox/
but never released.

You're right of course~

Hmmmm perhaps it would be better to amend the statement to: "There aren't enough buttons on an Xbox controller for truly comfortable operation", or simply - "It just works better on keyboard/mouse or keyboard/joystick" =P That's certainly my opinion, and I'm sure, in my endless presumption, that many X-ers would share it~

To be fair, there are almost always enough buttons on an Xbox controller for anything. Doesn't mean it'll work well though~ I remember trying to play CnC Red Alert (and the console-based expansion, Retaliation) on PS1 - it really didn't go well, despite having full functionality.

[Rabiator der II.]

I think a major reason for this is that the current console generation is a bit obsolete by now. As soon as the PS4 and the XBOX720 hit, the publishers will declare PC gaming dead again...

That was said when the first PlayStation came out and it was wrong then too.

The PC is the only gaming system that is constantly evolving, getting better and better. Developers never need to worry about hardware requirements until they're ready to release the game as there will always be people out there with a PC good enough. With the consoles your product must work within specific constraints. Only when the developers had reached the limit of what the PlayStation could do did the PS2 come out.

OK, "The PC is dead" was never entirely true. The point is that there is a cycle of rising and falling popularity of the PC vs. console.

Consoles are evolving in leaps. A new system gets released and is usually a LOT more powerful than its 5 year old predecessor. At this point, the console may well be equal to a mid-range gaming PC. And there is only one configuration, which developers like as it simplifies testing. That means less worry about hardware requirements, not more .
Also, publishers love the stronger copy protection on consoles, and thus much development shifts to the console when there is a new and attractive console generation.

The capabilities of the hardware are then kept constant over several years, technical progress goes (mostly) into making the hardware cheaper.
Which means the PC gains a performance advantage again and consoles are left behind. Eventually, consoles are unable to compete, and development shifts back to the PC.

Then the next console generation comes out...

[Slashman]

What's funny is that consoles aren't all that problem-free to code for either.

Apart from hardware restrictions, each console has it's own certification process for games being released on it. These usually have to be done a month or more in advance so that you can release your game to their standards. You also have to purchase the dev kits(and they aren't cheap from what I understand). Then there are the individual quirks of each console to consider. Heck, Skyrim still isn't running completely well on the PS3 due its strange memory configuration. Missing DLC there too(not sure if it's been fixed).

Its all about numbers. Console audiences are simply larger. That is unlikely to change. PC numbers are pretty much where they have always been.

In fact, I'd say that PC numbers have likely grown. The problem is that they are simply not where they need to be for 'AAA blockbuster' exclusives done to the current bloated industry standards.

[Sibilantae]

What's funny is that consoles aren't all that problem-free to code for either.

Apart from hardware restrictions, each console has it's own certification process for games being released on it. These usually have to be done a month or more in advance so that you can release your game to their standards. You also have to purchase the dev kits(and they aren't cheap from what I understand). Then there are the individual quirks of each console to consider. Heck, Skyrim still isn't running completely well on the PS3 due its strange memory configuration. Missing DLC there too(not sure if it's been fixed).

Hmm yes as I understand it 'ports' to the PS3 (or at least games that don't originate on it) don't typically do well because it's so difficult to code for. Games natively on PS3 (e.g. the MGS games) are apparently much better? Man, I need to get me one of those.

[Burneyx]

Hi,
just want to show another possible way to get a game done without Steam or any publishers:

http://backup-na.robertsspaceindustries.com/

Why not to let the fans decide what they want or not, getting them informed about the plans and ask them for help?

If you ask me, Egosoft should have done so years ago.

Ps: enjoy the video.

greetings

Burneyx

[Sibilantae]

Hi,
just want to show another possible way to get a game done without Steam or any publishers:

http://backup-na.robertsspaceindustries.com/

Why not to let the fans decide what they want or not, getting them informed about the plans and ask them for help?

If you ask me, Egosoft should have done so years ago.

Ps: enjoy the video.

greetings

Burneyx

Such funding methods are rather new, and are epitomized by Kickstarter. A good idea, yes, but it's rather a radical change from not using a publisher. I should also point out that using crowd-funding methods do not preclude Steam, since Steam is a distributor, not a publisher - for example, the game FTL was crowd-funded, but released on Steam.

[Burneyx]

Such funding methods are rather new, and are epitomized by Kickstarter. A good idea, yes, but it's rather a radical change from not using a publisher. I should also point out that using crowd-funding methods do not preclude Steam, since Steam is a distributor, not a publisher - for example, the game FTL was crowd-funded, but released on Steam.

Well youre right, nowadays is helping others almost "unknown".
But fact is that it is the reason for the success of humankind over thousands of years.
At least for me asking for support is nothing "new" nor is it a shame.

But:


"Why Direct And No Publisher?

The real question is: why not? Publishers are useful in the old physical distribution world, but the internet is the great equalizer. Notch didn't need a publisher to reach 20-million Minecraft fans. Riot games didn't need a publisher to reach 30-million League of Legends players, and Wargaming.net didn't need a publisher to reach 20-million World of Tanks gamers. If we were building a big "AAA" console game it would be crazy to try without a publisher. But we want to build a PC game and publishers increase costs because of their need to recoup their sizable overhead cost. We want to make sure all the money raised goes directly to the development of the game.

So we're throwing ourselves at the mercy of the PC gamers out there that share our vision and passion for the platform and the space combat genre to raise money outside of the "cartel" of traditional publishers. The game will cost less, be more creatively pure, and, most importantly, be built for the real "core" audience - not some corporate suit worried about including all the casual gamers."

It seems that Notch (and some others) have opened some eyes....


"What's Your Online Revenue Model?

Not a subscription but not free-to-play; rather a hybrid of these two business models. Much like ArenaNet's Guild Wars 2, you will purchase the PC game and pay no recurring subscription charges. Your purchase of the game will allow you to play in the universe for free, forever! The game will offer a variety of virtual items for purchase with in-game credits allowing you to spend money on items that offer more ways to express yourself, provide convenience, and customize your experience. But the cardinal rule regarding "in-game purchases" is: Players who spend money purchasing in-game credits will have no advantage over players who spend time!

Everything is bought with in-game credits. These purchases won't offer any advantage over someone who puts in the "game-time" to earn the same amount of credits. You might ask, why have "in-game" purchases at all? This allows us the resources to support the game on an ongoing basis as well as continually add content."

source:
http://starcitizen.robertsspaceindustries.com/

That doesn't sound as if they might use Steam.....and why should they?
Steam (like other distributors) is cutting away 30 % of their margin.....

[Sibilantae]

Well youre right, nowadays is helping others almost "unknown".
But fact is that it is the reason for the success of humankind over thousands of years.
At least for me asking for support is nothing "new" nor is it a shame.

...

That doesn't sound as if they might use Steam.....and why should they?
Steam (like other distributors) is cutting away 30 % of their margin.....

I think crowd sourcing is a good thing, don't get me wrong. I really like it! Furthermore, yes - of course not everyone wants to go through Steam, and that's fine. Why shouldn't it be? Steam doesn't have a monopoly on PC distribution, though it is very popular, and it probably won't for a while yet. That's all good. I applaud both Chris Roberts and the guys who are making Nexus 2, who are going through Kickstarter.

May I ask where you get the 30% figure? I've seen it before I don't know the source~

[Burneyx]

May I ask where you get the 30% figure? I've seen it before I don't know the source~

Sure, this:

Steam's success if attributed mainly to the convenience it offers players, as well as the competitive pricing for publishers. On Steam publishers earn a gross margin of 70 per cent, compared to the 30 per cent offered at retail stores.

source:
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/201 ... n-google/1

[Sibilantae]

May I ask where you get the 30% figure? I've seen it before I don't know the source~

Sure, this:

Steam's success if attributed mainly to the convenience it offers players, as well as the competitive pricing for publishers. On Steam publishers earn a gross margin of 70 per cent, compared to the 30 per cent offered at retail stores.

source:
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/201 ... n-google/1

Thanks~
I misinterpreted your original statement. It seems that distributors in general get a huge chunk of profits that otherwise go to the publishers! Based on that article, it looks like Steam is quite competitive in this regard - but in any case, you're right; cutting out the middleman (middlemen, even) by bypassing both publisher and distributor could be a good move - but it sounds a lot riskier! I hope it works out for them though.

[Burneyx]

-deleted-

[Nanook]

@Burneyx: And once again, please keep the topic to Rebirth and Steam. You've already had a series of off-topic posts about other games split from this thread. Please don't force us to do it again.