XR vs X4

[Aken_Bosch]

I admit I never bothered to go aboard one of the two stations I own in my current game (and I don't think my buddy did either...I'm in business with a friend, we share the saves and keep running our small enterprise in turns )...we just feel a great sense of accomplishment in watching our enormous properties from afar, with all the traffic buzzing around, their trading ships coming and going, and our defence fleet patrolling our personal zone (Corsairs' Bay) founded between Gemstone Manufacture and Steady Mole...there there's all the life I need to see ...

Instead I find nice the ideas about the financial summary (if I'm not wrong, I remember AP having a similar possibility, like showing relevant data in form of graphs too) and the huge single docking point, with several sub-levels accessible from there...I'm not a fervid supporter of having to search along kilometers of hull for the kind of dock I need...

Aside from mine , any other station could do for sure with a bit more and more varied life inside...having the possibility to win or lose some (heavy) cash with some good old gambling inside bars, I couldn't see this as a bad idea...

[Nikola515]

Investing money in to sectors would be nice too.... You invest in to undeveloped sector so it can build more stations/shipyards. I think there are already some arcade games in stations???? One is X2 and other is some jumping monkey or bear i think Perhaps they can make them operational (simular to Star Craft ). All though not sure if anyone would play them...

[Earth Ultimatum IV.]

One is X2 and other is some jumping monkey or bear i think

It's X:BTF, not X2 if Iam not wrong

[Nikola515]

One is X2 and other is some jumping monkey or bear i think

It's X:BTF, not X2 if Iam not wrong

I can't remember what it was , but i think you are right. It's been some time since i played it....

[pref]

Just hope they won't repeat the game design mistakes of XR. If it's not messed up that deeply, then modding will overcome the rest of the problems sooner or later.
A statement that they distance themselves from that concept/path would be so nice. or smthg like that..

This keeping XR fans while doing something X4 sounds more and more frightening as i think about it.
There aren't even new fans for XR, mainly just old ones who happen to accept the new title as well (out of love for ES, or for graphics - but there are like 1-2 guys saying the XR concept is better then X3's in here and on steam forums altogether).
AP is played more on average by now on steam as well, while having a nosteam exe and those great mods relying on that.
So then who are they keeping?

Im afraid they still think that XR was a good idea and they just need more time to improve it a bit. Adding multiple flyables alone wont save it - probably the UI/eco/fleet management parts are more important, and if they keep the XR concept there, it won't get better then XR, we will just have different cockpit meshes to endure the same stuff.

Would be nice to have straightforward communication, discussion of priorities, long term goals. They need to build a game modders can/are willing to finish or finetune for usage so to speak. Their scope is just bigger then their resources. Anyway most games that are played for long get heavy modder support. And XR lacks the long term 'magnetism' this process needs..

[spankahontis]

Unless it's something like space poker or other gambling games, I DO NOT want minigames like the ones in XR.

That would be cool, Casino Ships.

In X3 there are Casino Ship TLs flying around.
I hijacked one.
No pallets of money.
I was disappoint.

Yeah the Arena ships, there's no arenas, so let down.

[Slashman]

Just hope they won't repeat the game design mistakes of XR. If it's not messed up that deeply, then modding will overcome the rest of the problems sooner or later.

I can't state enough how horrible I find this sentiment. The primary purpose of modding should not be fixing game problems. It should be enhancing the game or offering alternative game mechanics.

When there are fundamental aspects of a game that are broken, the solution is not to mod them out. The solution is to have the devs fix the gorram game.

Someone recently said something like that on a forums and a dev posted back, and I'll quote:

worst phrase in gaming...

"(hopefully modders will provide a lot of that)"

It just infuriates me no end.

[pref]

When there are fundamental aspects of a game that are broken, the solution is not to mod them out. The solution is to have the devs fix the gorram game.

Had you read my post in full, it would have been obvious that we are stating the same thing.
A badly designed game cannot be salvaged via modding.

[Ketraar]

The primary purpose of modding should not be fixing game problems. It should be enhancing the game or offering alternative game mechanics.

While "fixing" problems as broad as it may be defined can be something done through modding, relying on it is surely a bad move.

But I think the sentiment behind the "then modder will fix it" is not related to bugs, but more in the sense of, give us a sandbox and modders will adjust the game if the vision of the devs does not align with mine.

Take Portal 2 as an example, there are a lot of mods, but there is just so much you can do in terms of modding, which is basically new maps (some are great though), but in a sandbox type game like XR or Skyrim, the possibilities are enormous. Just one thing people keep forgetting when comparing X3/TC/AP is that the modding community has evolved over 10 years and 4 game iterations, whereas we are yet in the infancy state of this new shiny engine and people have to learn stuff first. Also not to forget that the amount of games out there also contributes to spread people thinner.

MFG

Ketraar

[pref]

But I think the sentiment behind the "then modder will fix it" is not related to bugs, but more in the sense of, give us a sandbox and modders will adjust the game if the vision of the devs does not align with mine.

Correct in my case at least. And a bit more than that, like in the way the bonus pack expanded the game in the past for ex.
Possible empire scale is vastly increased by CAG/CLS.

[Playbahnosh]

There is much talk about the big problems regarding XR->X4, but lately I saw some discussion about the small things. I myself would love to see more small improvements or additions that wouldn't require much development resource but would boost immersion a lot.

- Like the talked about Casino Ships. In X3 there are Casino TL-s flying around in some sectors, but sadly they are good for nothing but boarding practice. How about making them functional? It shouldn't be too hard to include a small Space Poker or Space Blackjack minigame, or something made up, like Dabo or Dom-jot in Start Trek. No need to code giant 3D casino floors, just a window with the minigames would be enough I think. But if there is time for developing this, these games could perhaps be used in the story or missions, like wagering not only money, but maybe ships or trade discounts or whatever.

- Ambient chatter/noise. This is what I was kinda missing the most from X games. When docked to stations, I really loved the random announcements and jingles, but outside....I know Betty just about never shuts up but space still feels empty and bleak most of the time, even in the middle of high-traffic sectors with lots of stations. I remember I already brought up SPAZ as an example of ambient space chatter/noise done right. Its like the comms system picking up all sorts of random transmissions and noise: Distorted and stuttered messages from SOS signals, someone asking where the next fuel depo is, jingles for weird space products, misdirected reports from science vessels, pop-culture references (Alien, Event Horizon, Star Trek, etc), all sorts of weird and eerie buzzes, bleeps and bloops. It makes you feel like you are not alone in this universe but there are actual living people/beings in the distance, even if you never see them (or maybe you do, more on that later). Even on ships which are big enough to require a crew, its dead silence. I would expect some crew chatter on ships M6 and up, like status reports, messages, crew banter, etc. Not a lot, but at least 1 one-liner/minute or something. There is even a mod that replaces the engine noise for these ships with one that includes some crew chatter, but I bet there are better ways of doing this. This doesn't even need much coding, just recording some lines, some noise and some audio distortion. They could even ask the community to send in some sample space chatter and crew banter lines, it doesn't even have to be top quality since it will be distorted anyway.

- Random events. Just like UFO appearances in earlier X games and in some way the random Xenon migrations, there should be a lot more little (and not so little) random events. How about solar flares, ion storms or other temporary space phenomena, that mess with certain systems? Like you essentially lose your gravidar and HUD markers in that sector for a time and you are forced to eyeball that docking clamp on approach without crashing into it. Or lose the ability to use the jumpdrive, lose power to weapons/shields/engines, etc. It would make things pretty interesting. Like in the middle of a big dogfight, suddenly all ships lose power and you are floating dead in space, staring each other down until the phenomenon passes, at which point the murder continues. Or the exact opposite could happen, maybe an errant solar flare boost the power of your weapons or shields, etc. Maybe a sudden ion surge randomly kickstarts your jumpdrive and you essentially execute an involuntary UFJD jump. Maybe you pass through a small tear in space-time and suddenly some of the wares in your cargo hold change, vanish, transform, etc. Aside from these minor occurrences, there could be major or very rarely even cataclysmic events, that could potentially change the face of the universe and the balance of power. There are events like this in the X storyline, but always "off-screen", we can find evidence of these past events in some sectors, that happened before the current story began, but never experienced it during gameplay. Like a sun going supernova and blasting an entire sector to bits, stations and planets and all. From that point on that sector will have no sun (or maybe a pulsar that makes ship systems go bonkers) but it'll have a brand new asteroid cloud, and efforts to salvage and re-build the sector would weigh heavily on the race that owns it, but potential profit opportunities arise for the player to support the restoration efforts for example. Consider, that these events shouldn't be forced on the player, and their presence in the game and their frequency should be controllable in the options menu, so those who don't like surprises could go on playing in good 'ol "boring space".

- Optional mini-quests. This one is connected to the previous two points. These are small random events that could happen, like a random mayday from a broken down ship. You can either ignore it or go and try to find it. If you do then you make a choice: either help them with the repairs (give them some specific cargo wares and a few ecells) and send them on their way, so you gain a small amount of money and reputation boost with that faction, OR if you have marines you can choose to raid the helpless ship for whatever is in it's cargo hold and take the crew hostage (sell them as slaves, turn them into marines or just space them) and salvage the ship if you can, but you lose a ton of reputation and the police/bounty hunters might be after you, OR you can just shoot the ship to bits and collect whatever is left, also losing rep with that faction. Or maybe a mayday from a merchant ship under attack by pirates. Again, you can ignore it, help them, help the pirates or just murder everyone, gaining/losing rep and resources accordingly. Or maybe something more weird, like a false SOS luring you into an ambush, some eerie transmission leading to something very alien/supernatural, maybe by completing these mini-quests and listening to the ambient chatter sometimes you gain random clues that lead to a hidden mission, hidden ships, crates, etc. Aside from making the universe way more immersive and alive, it could provide context and content for ages with virtually unlimited replay value. I have admittedly little experience with the in-game scripting system, but I don't believe this would be really hard to accomplish as these scenarios are mostly just fluff and dialogue (and fighting and trading and pieces from other features which are in the game already).

Including existing mods, like the cockpit mod, realistic skyboxes, the BBS system and things like these could go a really long way to make the game FEEL immersive instead of just using superficial eye-candy.

[Ketraar]

Those things would sure be great to have, how much that would translate in sales and thus be "worth" is the key I guess. One thing is us wanting them the other is provide pizza to some one to actually do it. Which is why "modders will fix it eventually" is at times more feasible than expecting them to be included, unless done the Paradox way of DLC type expansions (EU4 has like a gazillion).

It shouldn't be too hard to include...

Its hardly ever a question of difficulty or skill, more related to pizza than anything else.

MFG

Ketraar

[Playbahnosh]

Those things would sure be great to have, how much that would translate in sales and thus be "worth" is the key I guess.

"Worth" doesn't necessarily translate to "copies sold" directly. We X players know this better than anyone. The X games were never chart toppers or media blockbusters, but despite (or maybe in spite) of all that, they are truly remarkable games with a unique gameplay you cannot find anywhere else. Being a "niche game" is not a curse. The X games scratch that special itch that only an extremely complex single player sandbox space simulator can. Worth is subjective, and thus niche games are very important. X may be scoffed at or not even known by a lot of gamers, because they like different games, but we love the X series to death. A niche game often attracts a smaller but extremely loyal fan base. Unlike those triple-A blockbusters that try to cater to the lowest common denominator, their fanbase is fluctuating fast. Most of those games you play for a few weeks tops and then never again, mostly because you've exhausted everything that game had to offer: a shallow, quick dose of fun. A hollow thing, looking $60 on the shelves, but only worth about half that in entertainment (if even that much). I bought GTA5 when it was released on PC, and I had great fun with it....for a week. Then I uninstalled it. It's the exact opposite with games like X. I bought Reunion not long after release, then TC, then the Superbox, and they are still installed on my computer to this day with saves dating back close to a decade. I can definitely say I had gotten waaay more worth out of these games over the years than their original pricetag ever was. Way more.

So you are asking if these small improvements would translate to sales? No, I don't think so. But they are not meant to anyway. These little additions are invisible from the outside, you can't put them on the jewel case or show them off in flashy trailers. No, random radio chatter and mini-events don't sell games. But then why are they even in there to begin with, right? Why are they in SPAZ, or RPG games, or Half Life? These little extras only serve to create an even more fun and immersive world for those who already play the game, because that's what a game's purpose should be! To entertain those who DO play them, to make them have as much fun as possible, as long as possible, and not to stake everything on those who might. This is exactly where XR failed horrendously...but we are not here to talk about that....thing...

Its hardly ever a question of difficulty or skill, more related to pizza than anything else.

I didn't mean it's a matter of skill or development cost. These small features use already existing game code or mechanics, the scripting system, the mission director, etc. I don't think it's even related to development costs (or "pizza" as you put it), since they don't require any new complex coding, new game mechanics or technology. But you were right in one thing, these won't produce any new sales in themselves either, so they are technically "worthless fluff" not even worth the time and effort to make them from a purely financial standpoint. But to me Egosoft was the dev team that made the game THEY wanted to play. And you can easily see which dev teams do this same thing. There is a clear distiction between small teams making niche games and huge copropration making games designed by a committee:

There are games designed to be sold, and there are games designed to be played.

[Gligli]

Maybe, but its time evolutive by Ego.
Every product they have are still enhanced from time to time. There's no end of support game I know by Egosoft...
When it comes to NBT, no one can (could never?) really tell about their financial situation or even if Rebirth was a 10 year side project which finally gain accreditation by suffisent first-demo-content (iow, convince the banker )...
What I think I know, is that a demo of the size of Rebirth is only possible by those "huge corporation".
That means, Rebirth can't stand like it actually is, as other opuses. And if new weirdos things like mini-game-engine has been implemented, its for all of those purpose you wrote...

I mean, I like major of your good ideas about that "@*!& mini-game system, dudes

[BigBANGtheory]

There is much talk about the big problems regarding XR->X4, but lately I saw some discussion about the small things. I myself would love to see more small improvements or additions that wouldn't require much development resource but would boost immersion a lot.

So I like the small changes you've presented I think they would indeed provide an improved gameplay experience. Where I struggle though is "how does that impact the big changes necessary" and most importantly "what defines necessary" i.e. if one assumes due to practical realities of game development one can't do everything where can those compromises be made?

Clearly its Egosofts desicion to make but what guides that desicion and how do they know with any certainty they've made the right desicion before its too late to recover from?

These forums, Steam forums, Facebook, Reddit allow for descriptive feedback and debate but are a really lousy measure of gauging the relative importance of things.

While "fixing" problems as broad as it may be defined can be something done through modding, relying on it is surely a bad move.

But I think the sentiment behind the "then modder will fix it" is not related to bugs, but more in the sense of, give us a sandbox and modders will adjust the game if the vision of the devs does not align with mine.

...and where that begins to break down is where the game doesn't align with the developers vision or its market expectations which is broadly speaking to be progressive, evolutionary and most importantly better than successive or comparable legacy products. Modders imho are not well placed to change things too much (though there are of course rare exceptions like DayZ or Counter Strike) but rather enhance and build upon the experience like XTM did for X3.

I'd like to know what Egosoft intends to do about testing the User Experience this time around to help mitigate the risk of large numbers of players being dissatisfied with the next major product release.

[Ketraar]

There are games designed to be sold, and there are games designed to be played.

This is a very romantic way to see things. Real life is different though, not many will have the resources spare to ignore the business aspect, its called "games industry" for a reason.

Mind I agree with the "fine tuning" things like chatter and the like, but if put into perspective, one has to see that this type of polish has to be lower in the prio list unless you are CR and have a shit ton of cash thrown at you, you WILL have to focus on the features that sell, such is real life.

MFG

Ketraar

[Gligli]

If you place yourself in a financial "shrinked" time, yes.
A part of the problem is that those polished X-things have sell till nowadays. Even if part of those polished X-things came from Mod community which is "stretched" in time compare to...

[Ragemaster9999]

To be quite honest, I enjoy Rebirth in its current state. I was a launch preorder, game has come aloooong way since the initial release. One of the best things about X:R over its predecessors is the new engine. it runs smooth, it looks beautiful, I love what they did with capitals in regards to the component based system.

With that said, I believe they have a pretty good foundation to build x4 on. With the time spent on the engine during X rebirth, im hoping x4 will be more content oriented. Rebirth felt quite small content wise compared to X3:tc, although the engine as a whole was one giant leap forward.

Right now, my biggest problem with X rebirth is the UI. It's clunky, and I don't want to sort through console style chat dialogue menues to access the screen or command needed. I get absolutely infuriated having to watch my guy spin his chair around and walk through a load screen just to talk to an employee for a dilaogue menu. I can remotely call my people from in station, why do I have to load to the back of the skunk when in space? UI needs to be worked on. Walking in stations is another feature that falls flat. Im sure it just needs more development time or meaningful interaction. Right now it is just an annoyance to have to land to smalltalk. I really get tired smalltalking the same 10 lines of dialogue over and over again.

Another huge opportunity that was missed in X rebirth is personal ship customization. For taking away our ability to fly any ship, we sure were left with a pretty generic skunk. We should be able to change subcomponents, and change the role of the skunk from the current generic "jack of all trades command and control ship" to something more specialized to our gameplay style.

If I want to adapt the skunk to act more like a souped up fighter craft, sacrificing shield and drone count for additional speed, smaller hitbox and agility, I should be able to. If I want to make it even more tankier then it is and trade weapons for drone space and have a mini carrier, I should be able to. Customization with skunk is currently very weak and bland. Nothing special at all. Since we are now flying one ship only, I better have extreme customization over the tactical capabilities of my ship.

Overall the X series is moving in a great direction, I am looking forward to seeing what happens with the other races. Borons up close is gonna be the day.

[Slashman]

Those things would sure be great to have, how much that would translate in sales and thus be "worth" is the key I guess.

To ask that question in a different way: How much has the absence of polish and fine details like that hurt the series overall in the long run?

When people do reviews and say a game lacks immersion, that can hurt sales in a way that isn't easy to see because you can't tell how many people turn away because they think the game is very rough around the edges (and in many cases they are right).

You're essentially adding a steep learning curve, questionable UI and lack of fine details together to create what many likely find an unattractive proposition.

You can of course argue that the essentials are all there for the sandbox and that is true. However, the attractiveness of that package matters immensely to many gamers. And as tempting as it is for us to always call those the 'lowest common denominator', those still represent some sales potential that is missed. And we aren't even talking about 'dumbing down' here. Simply polish and added value through a more believable and interactive environment.

If less people than you want are appreciating the 'essentials' anyway due to that barrier, then maybe that 'pizza money' is more worthwhile afterall.

[Ketraar]

I think you make a few wrong assumptions. The biggest one being assuming anyone would be saying that polish and fine tuning does not reflect sales, no one said anything along that, in fact you are correct that immersion and polish will turn a few additional sales. The question here though is how much effort (aka pizza) has to be invested for those sales and does the additional effort justify the extra income? Not truly knowing the answer, I'd guess no for X games.

A good example would be KSP, which I have been playing quite a bit lately. Its a great sandbox game, but if you are after that polish and immersion you have to grab a few mods. This symbiotic relation is IMHO the only feasible way for niche games to achieve that state of grandness, the older X games and the like managed. But if we sum up all the hours put into making guides, mods, tools, forum stickys on top of the dev time, the price for X games would be huge and it would take (like it did) years and several iterations to reach its mature state. Unless you have a few hundred people working full-time and a SC type budget for all that pizza.

Which is why XR is a needed step towards X4 (whatever that may be), given there was no way forward from X3/TC/AP. So it makes sense to take a step to the side, arguably even a step back, to open up a path that allows growth. But with all growth it takes time and even if immersion is important, one has to prioritise things given the finite amount of resources available. Now everyone and their dog/cat will have a different definition of which are the priorities and which not, but usually its those sticking their necks for it that get to decide, which should be common sense really.

MFG

Ketraar