Logon required to install/play?

thetack · Post by **thetack** » Wed, 5. Oct 11, 23:01

if i could get a reliable 20 min i would agree but today is the first time for a week i have had a connection for longer than about 20 min

i may if i am lucky be able to log in and out but my conection here is worse than my old dile up in town.

esd · Post by **esd** » Wed, 5. Oct 11, 23:06

Well at the end of the day even the slowest of connections (esd for example) could get a 10-20 mb patch within a reasonable amount of time if you cant wait 10-20 mins for such a patch then that's laziness imo and a unwillingness to just be patient despite the short amount of time you use at a computer.

I might agree if it was the only issue, but it's not, as I explained before.

Skeeter · Post by **Skeeter** » Wed, 5. Oct 11, 23:13

Ok, well good luck you playing it then i guess is all i can say for the future esd. Hope you find a solution that works for you.

Never know they may still use impulse or gamers gate to release and if so then you might be able to download patches the way you want to.

Virtualaughing · Post by **Virtualaughing** » Wed, 5. Oct 11, 23:21

As far as i know the x games with starforce protection are the hardest to hack/patch.

I have completely gave up on such games which require online account or when the savedgaes of a game stored on a remote server. I like to handle savedgames manually with windows and not with the game itself or any kind of wizards. Forexample i wont ever buy any apple mp3 player because the limitations.

With Flatout 3 your savvedgames managed with some online server... io dont remeber exactly the details and that character loading every time which has ben made 1st time and you need menus after menus and login logout to change savedgame. Not to mention that due low FPS problems with every new X games it is better to disable internet and firewall/AV too

I hope this is another "speaking of a witch" (or how) topic

amtct · Post by **amtct** » Wed, 5. Oct 11, 23:24

Well at the end of the day even the slowest of connections (esd for example) could get a 10-20 mb patch within a reasonable amount of time if you cant wait 10-20 mins for such a patch then that's laziness imo and a unwillingness to just be patient despite the short amount of time you use at a computer.

Have you heard of "ISP Data caps".Many people are limited by their ISPs.I don't think its fair for those who can't afford to download the game .Today's internet is pretty crappy compared to all these games and apps that need internet .Even Windows needs internet and this happenes in a world where internet is not fast and cheap for everyone .

Skeeter · Post by **Skeeter** » Wed, 5. Oct 11, 23:33

Have you heard that patches take up all of the isp cap usage allowance, no well neither have I.

Seriously tho. A few patches wont break anyone's usage allowance ever.

Also no where did i ever say download the whole game at all. You use the retail disc for the game and steam for the few patches if and when they come out.

Also if you want proper no caps for the uk internet go join Be There for proper uncapped internet for decent prices like I do.

amtct · Post by **amtct** » Wed, 5. Oct 11, 23:41

Skeeter wrote:Have you heard that patches take up all of the isp cap usage allowance, no well neither have I.

Seriously tho. A few patches wont break anyone's usage allowance ever.

Also no where did i ever say download the whole game at all. You use the retail disc for the game and steam for the few patches if and when they come out.

Left for dead,Metro 2033,Mafia 2 ,Deus Ex ...are only few titles that were bought by me on DVD.Steam redownloads them and in the best case scenario it will download only 40% after the file check.

Skeeter wrote:Also if you want proper no caps for the uk internet go join Be There for proper uncapped internet for decent prices like I do.

In my country a 120Mbps connection is 8€ per month and no data cap.I was talking about those who can't afford yet this type of "luxury" (notice the quotes ....internet should not be a luxury).

Post by **Cycrow** » Thu, 6. Oct 11, 00:17

cant speak for the other games, as i bought them all directly from steam, but i did get the DVD version of Metro 2033.
and it didn't download anything, it installed it straight from the dvd

at least most of it, there was a small amount it downloaded, like the exe, which doesn't come on the DVD for any steamworks games.

are you sure it wasn't just installing from the DVD when you did it ?
it does show a standard steam install display, so it might look like it was downloading, but actually isn't

shireknight · Post by **shireknight** » Thu, 6. Oct 11, 00:26

When the Total War games went Steam-only with Empire we had pages and pages of threads like this on our forums but it all worked out well in the end.

All I can say to anyone concerned about this news regarding Steamworks (as I was when it happened to us) is don't worry, Steam has many more advantages to it for both the users and the developers than disadvantages and you'll love it once you get used to it -trust me I've been there.

Mightysword · Post by **Mightysword** » Thu, 6. Oct 11, 00:30

There are some solutions:

- If you want to play and not update thing but still want the update that's easy. Just set the game to no-auto update, so you can play in those little precious time. If you realize there is a update, make a note and let it run that course when you're not playing . I.e when you're taking a bath, when you sleep, when you eat, or when some one else using the computer, steam can do its updating in the background. It you're stretching that it requires you absolutely to have the computer aslot to yourself to even remotely updating it ... that'll be too much of a stretch.

- And just to throw this out there, you can download stuff while playing on steam, at least between different games, never try with the same game. It's just that steam stop the download process whenever you launch a game, but you can always alt-tab out and restart the download yourself.

Post by **Nanook** » Thu, 6. Oct 11, 00:49

Kor'ah wrote:
Nanook wrote:Why not, and where do you get this info? I want to hear it from Bernd or some other Ego employee first.

Bernd wrote:It is very likely that X Rebirth will be using Steamworks, because our publisher is moving all recent games to this platform. This would of course not mean that you can only buy the game electronically via Steam, but that a boxed copy that you buy in a shop would have to be activated with Steam.

I know not everybody likes this, but for us as a developer this is great news, because it means that there is only ONE version we have to support and that all of our customers can automatically update to the latest version of the game. I can not overstate how big a deal this is from a developers point of view!

It may be hard for most of you active forum users to understand, because you would always see a new update and install it immediately, but unfortunately you are just a minority.

-Bernd
Right there plain as day. Steamworks and services like it are taking over PC gaming. Love it, hate it, but that's how it is.

Not plain as day. I see nothing in Bernd's statement that says patches won't also be available on this website. All he said is that there will only be a single version of the patch, compatible with Steam.

And for me, it's not a matter of "love it, hate it," but a matter of not being able to use it.

Mightysword wrote:There are some solutions:

- If you want to play and not update thing but still want the update that's easy. Just set the game to no-auto update, so you can play in those little precious time. If you realize there is a update, make a note and let it run that course when you're not playing . I.e when you're taking a bath, when you sleep, when you eat, or when some one else using the computer, steam can do its updating in the background. It you're stretching that it requires you absolutely to have the computer aslot to yourself to even remotely updating it ... that'll be too much of a stretch....

Hardly a solution for those of us with limited bandwidth. Whenever my wife or I try to download a large file, and by large I mean over 100 MB, the internet connection chokes, and doesn't allow much of anything else to come across until the download is complete. It seems people graced with high speed internet just don't get it.

PaulP · Post by **PaulP** » Thu, 6. Oct 11, 00:56

I find it funny that every single thread where Steam gets discussed people talk about how they can't use steam for such and such reasons or dislike steam for such and such reasons, and suddenly people come out of the woodwork to praise Steam and insult those people like they were criticizing their religion or something.

But then threads where people bash any other copy protection system, sometimes even quite unfairly, everyone seems to just join in and agree.

Steam's DRM isn't any more effective than other DRM systems. Their games get cracked just as quickly. They just seem to be doing a better job of marketing to developers.

- Just an observation.

Post by **Nanook** » Thu, 6. Oct 11, 01:09

For the record, I have no problem with online activation, if that's all that's required. After all, I have to do online activation for Windows 7, among other things. If Egosoft/Deep Silver/Steam does it that way, it's fine. But if they require all patches and bonus content to be downloaded from Steam, that's a no-go for me. End of story.

Shimrod · Post by **Shimrod** » Thu, 6. Oct 11, 01:34

suddenly people come out of the woodwork to praise Steam and insult those people like they were critisizing their religion or something.

I have a working theory that as vested interest increases with each Steam game purchased and locked into an account, the account holder becomes a stakeholder in the success of the company, like a shareholder with an increasing stake.

To secure the vested interest, the stakeholder will naturally be on the defensive and even actively evangelize it and knock the competition, to secure the stake and indirectly support Steam's propagation. A strong business model to be sure.

This is one reason I cut my losses and ditched Steam while I only had 3 games attached to it.

Another is concern over the sheer amount of online credentials I felt I'd end up accumulating just for playing games, after ending up with Bioware, Battle.net, Impulse and Steam accounts within a short space of time.

Its not just a problem of forgotten credentials, its making sure all logins and passwords are different, to avoid guessing, hacking or phishing them and using them elsewhere. And I'm not just talking game accounts - unwitting replication of logons could well compromise important accounts. Granted this is a general problem, but it strikes me that having to create accounts merely for online activiation is a frivolous and unnecessary risk.

Other issues including exposing personal data, the provider going out of business, connectivity and bandwidth issues, getting on the wrong side of the provider and having them ban your account, being accused of cheating somehow due to invasive 'anti cheating' PC scans of the host software, the list just goes on.

Steam is clearly the major issue here, but I'm taking a stand on any kind of online logon to install or play and not buying. We don't get a vote, expressing discomfort on forums will raise awareness but won't factor into the decisions. Yes, its a hard choice to deny ones self something, but I feel only way to secure change is to vote with my wallet. And to say so on the provider forum - the lost business can not then be attributed to a dwindling pc market.

fairywhipper · Post by **fairywhipper** » Thu, 6. Oct 11, 01:41

ok, so far if its only activation on steam then we might be ok, but steam also tries to update, and the last 2 games i brought used steam. what happens when i tried to activate i got update, i got stuck with a 2.5gb and a 900mb download. now iam using tethering on my mobile phone so that update will cost me more than the game is worth.....yes you can pause the update, but if it has started then you cannot play until the patch is finished.

If only steam would let you activate then play the game without going through its client then it is wonderful, and patches were less than 100mb and downloaded when you want to then problem solved for many people. but i dont think so.

Like Nanook says about activation for most people is use to the idea, and may cost a few mb, with steam my experience is not happy.

if i had to use steam to play a game on my system (amd2600+ with agp graphics card) with my connection (mobile phone tethering) then i wont bother, not because of the system requirements but it just wont work... not everyone has super-gaming rig... yes i am upgrading soon to a new laptop, when i can afford it so iam keeping eye on system requirements as well.

Chris0132 · Post by **Chris0132** » Thu, 6. Oct 11, 01:51

Selling it on steam is fine, and in fact a bonus for me, as I like steam, I like its features, that it also functions as a form of DRM is entirely secondary to me, I buy stuff on steam because it's convenient and during a sale, exceptionally cheap.

However in something of a double standard, I have no interest in using another system, the whole point of steam is that I already use it for everything, so it's convenient. I don't want to use EA origin or blizzard's thingy they have for starcraft 2, or ubisoft's silly thing they have.

Basically it's only good if it's established, because most of the features come from that, on steam I can buy everything, and it has all the features I want. Other platforms are only going to be pointless retreads of the same turf.

So CD or steam, no proprietary rubbish.

apricotslice · Post by **apricotslice** » Thu, 6. Oct 11, 01:56

I havent read the whole thread, so will just answer the OP.

I'm an out of the box gamer.

I dont do Steam. Period. Nor do I buy games off download facilities where you need to log in to access.

I expect to buy the game the same as all the rest, from my local game store, in a box, with a dvd. Then I expect to download the patches from here, and install them myself.

If I have to belong to some online site in order to get patches, then its game over. One of my main gripes about Steam from reading people here over the years, is that the automatic update feature is a no-no, not happening thing. I retain control over when and how I patch my game, I never surrender that to anyone. In fact, one of the reasons I never updated Sins was because they went this route and I refuse to use the site they use. Likewise, there are some games I might have considered, but because they needed membership of a site, they were never tried.

I have no plans to join Steam, and no plans to even consider doing so.

As I said, I'm an out of the box gamer.

Online activation on the other hand is a fact of life now. I dont mind if it needs net access during instalation to activate the game online. However, it should not expect net access all the time. It should be a once only thing and then the game never needs net access again.

Observe · Post by **Observe** » Thu, 6. Oct 11, 02:06

apricotslice wrote:Online activation on the other hand is a fact of life now. I dont mind if it needs net access during instalation to activate the game online. However, it should not expect net access all the time. It should be a once only thing and then the game never needs net access again.

I can tolerate online activation in the limited sense you describe. After activation I expect to disconnect the online activation umbilical cord forever without some resident agent running as a background application waiting to raise its ugly head at the most inopportune moment.

apricotslice · Post by **apricotslice** » Thu, 6. Oct 11, 02:13

Observe wrote:
apricotslice wrote:Online activation on the other hand is a fact of life now. I dont mind if it needs net access during instalation to activate the game online. However, it should not expect net access all the time. It should be a once only thing and then the game never needs net access again.
I can tolerate online activation in the limited sense you describe. After activation I expect to disconnect the online activation umbilical cord forever without some resident agent running as a background application waiting to raise its ugly head at the most inopportune moment.

I look at it this way, in the past I've never had a computer that can run an X game on high settings, and quite often had to completely disconnect the net in order to keep the computer stable enough to run the game adequately.

I currently have a computer that runs TC very well, but I expect by XR release, it will be barely adequate.

I take the wide view as well. Many people wont have the right hardware, and will be reliant on stripping down their computer to just the basic needs, in order to get the game to run properly. As such, Net access and all programs that use the net, are the first things you remove. The game must be playable without the net.

Skeeter · Post by **Skeeter** » Thu, 6. Oct 11, 02:16

For me Steam is a convenience. It has a great chat system for my friends, a great ingame steam interface if i need to use it i.e check if friends are online and chat that way without needing anything external like msn messenger or skype. Great sales where you can buy games for a few quid and their big title games too. Tiny program to run so i keep it on all the time and starts with my computer nice and unintrusive. Can keep games up to date so they are always at there best and the patches come down fast probably through some kind of compression steam uses to transfer large files quickly to users and you can pick which server to get files from and stuff incase the usual one is slow due to a new title launch. Stats, achievments and the likes is nice to have too tho i dont really use them much. A nice games library showing all ur games, and can launch them with a click of a mouse button. Oh and the ingame screenshot tool and upload to your steam accounts private webspace at steam is nice too and easy to use.

egosoft.com

egosoft.com

Logon required to install/play?