[MOD] Miscellaneous IZ Combat Tweaks

[w.evans]

19.March 2016 - Miscellaneous IZ Combat Tweaks updated to v0.62

If the Teladi Outpost DLC is active, MICT Captains of the Teladi Phoenix, the Marauder Phoenix, and the Condor orient the front sides of their ships toward their targets and try to maintain maximum range.

Thanks to Jonzac and Sparky Sparkycorp for advice on the matter.

[desan77332]

Hi. Need help with compatibility mods. I play with CWIR, MICT/MOCT (really like tactical jumps) and also used CES. And I think there is a conflict between these modes. In the last game, I noticed that Balor stop firing rockets, maneuvering of all ships became worse. When I command ships to attack the station, they open fire but then just drift a short distance around station and do nothing. All captains and security officers have 5 stars. I do not know what to do with it, it all started to happen after any of the above mods have been updated, i suppose.

[w.evans]

Hi. Need help with compatibility mods. I play with CWIR, MICT/MOCT (really like tactical jumps) and also used CES.

There shouldn't be a conflict between MICT/MOCT and CES. However, beaver1981 rightly pointed out that there wouldn't be much point in having MICT and CES if all of your Defence Officers are highly skilled because then, they'd all be running MICT. For cases like this, where you'd prefer your defence officer to run CES rather than the MICT defence officer script, you could use the MICT CES Edition that is in the MICT page at the Nexus.

I am not so sure about CWIR since I unfortunately haven't kept up with their latest and greatest. Last time I checked, there was no conflict, though.

In the last game, I noticed that Balor stop firing rockets,

If running MICT (not MICT CES Edition), make sure that the Defence Officers of your Balors are set to "Attack." (Defence Officer details).

If running MICT CES Edition with CES, you'll have to take it up with beaver1981. I don't think CES has anything restricting Balors firing though.

maneuvering of all ships became worse.

Given your mod setup, this would likely be on me. Worse how?

When I command ships to attack the station, they begin to shoot but then just drift a short distance around station and do nothing.

Problem I found here is that they can't shoot through wrecks; and if parts of a station are wrecked, but are obscuring parts of the station that are not wrecked, they won't have a clear shot. That said, I did deal with this a while back by having them move relative to the station module that they're targeting rather than the station as a whole. Should be a lot better, but still isn't perfect.

Quick workaround is to leave the Sector where the battle is happening. (To be sure, don't leave just the Zone. Move all the way out of the Sector.) Ships don't need line of sight when fighting in low attention, and if there's just a last little bit of station left to blow up, should be done in a little while.

[desan77332]

I reinstalled CWIR and MICT/MOCT, and started new game without CES. All works perfect, Balor firing, ships are maneuvering, and no stuck with atack stations anymore

[Jonzac]

Awesome. Is the steam download version also updated?

[w.evans]

@Jonzac, yup

@desan, would just like to reiterate that if you had MICT (not the CES Edition) and CES installed, and your crew members had more than 4 stars in all primary skills, the CES defence officer script wouldn't have been active on your ships at all so I doubt that it was CES that was causing your Balors to not fire their torpedoes. Also, CES doesn't touch ship movement, so it couldn't have caused the other problem you had either.

That said, glad that you've sorted out your problems.

[desan77332]

w.evans, thank you for your response. I have another one question about ships orders. Now all works fine, but when I gives the order to attack the station, ships attacking and destroy two or three parts of the station, then they report that the order is executed, and then follow me again. I have to give orders to attack again and again, until they are completely destroyed the station. 3-4 times. What's the matter? This is what you mentioned above, parts of a station are wrecked, but are obscuring parts of the station that are not wrecked, they will not have a clear shot ? Or is there another problem?

btw, my english is far from good, sorry for that)

[w.evans]

when I gives the order to attack the station, ships attacking and destroy two or three parts of the station, then they report that the order is executed, and then follow me again.

Unfortunately, this is a consequence of targeting station modules rather than the whole station.

Targeting a station module makes the ship move relative to the station module so the module is kept within range and the ship is more likely to maintain line of sight.

However, when the module is destroyed, the captain no longer has a target and the attack order ends. I can't then have the captain switch targets because the captain would no longer have a target.

It would be possible to have the captain remember that he or she is attacking a station and, when a module is destroyed, switch targets, but that could be risky because it could result in a ship that would get stuck forever looking for a target that no longer exists. Like I said, not impossible, but would take more time than I can spare at the moment, so an improvement in that regard is not planned

[Simoom]

hey there w.evans! long time no see. I just recently picked up XR again for HoL, and I used the chance to look over my mod selection (to decide which ones to keep before I start a new save).

I remember when you first started working on this mod and I very enthusiastically tried it out. I also remember the reason I stopped using it: The tactical jump was somewhat problematic at the time (cap ships will jump away as soon as enemies close in below a certain range - this includes enemy fighters. As the result my cap ships were basically always jumping before combat even started).

The problem is especially worse with ships that have extra long range (since I have Xenon Hunt, I have some captured Xenon I's, and those have Balor-like range due to the Novadrone launchers). My I's end up in a jump loop because the moment enemy fighters approach below half the range of Novadrones, the I's would initiate a jump (without killing any of the said fighters, because they are still well outside the range of its turrets).

May I recommend a version of your mod that allows tactical jump only if the shield is depleted below a certain percentage? For me this seems more reasonable (since cap ships are meant to tank up some damage - especially against fighters!)

Or may be the preemptive escape logic should only apply to "squishy" cap ships like the Balor (which has weak anti-fighter capabilities).

[w.evans]

Hey Simoom, that's odd. They shouldn't jump nor boost at all anymore if they're moving against fighters. Have you updated to the latest? In this case, if you're going with the Nexus distribution, you should only need the base mod. If you have the latest and your ships are fidgety against fighters, please let me know.

Also, if you want to try it out without tactical jumping at all, you could try the MICT CES Edition that is in the Nexus. That won't have the MICT Defence Officer script though because it was designed to be used with CES that has a DO script.

edit: oh, and your I shouldn't use their Novadrone range for any range calculations. Set non-LR ships to use turret range. The range that your Ks maintain will still be fairly long due to their fairly long-ranged turrets though.

Ranges are also looser than back in the early days, so MICT ships should be less fidgety in general. Although, I have to say, I do miss the old days of boost-by-strafing.

[Simoom]

Hey there w.evans!

Oh no I was talking about the earlier versions of your mod, back when I tried it. I was just wondering if that behavior has been changed since then, sorry for the misunderstanding!

I've been using CES with my new (4.0/HoL) save; I'll give MICT another try soon.

Edit: Okay found the source of my confusion from earlier - under the "Movement Script" section, you stated:

Since v0.03, if fighters get too close, the captain will try to jump away.

I am guessing this only applies to older versions of the mod?

Edit 2: Sorry for the spam... had another question, this time regarding the MICT CES edition. I understand that CES only modifies the DO script, and doesn't touch the movement script. A big part of MICT is about movement (jumping and boosting to weapons range, which is nice since vanilla cap ships often lag behind me way too far). But you also mentioned that the MICT CES edition doesn't use tactical jump - do you mean ships won't jump away when enemies get to close? Or do they not use boost/jump at all to approach target? In other words, what movement modifications can I expect from MICT CES edition?

[w.evans]

under the "Movement Script" section, you stated:

Since v0.03, if fighters get too close, the captain will try to jump away.

I am guessing this only applies to older versions of the mod?

In normal MICT, they will jump if they have to retreat, even if engaging fighters. Otherwise, when fighting small ships, they only use normal engines.

MICT CES edition doesn't use tactical jump - do you mean ships won't jump away when enemies get to close? Or do they not use boost/jump at all to approach target?

With MICT CES Edition, they won't use tactical jump at all.

[gadrael]

Hi! I've just read description of this mod and it seems exactly what I need, however one thing is not clear to me:

MICT is only activated for capital ships with crews with a minimum rating of 4 in all of their primary skills.

MICT Movement is triggered when a capital ship with a crew that's good enough (combined skill = 80, at least roughly a 4/4/4 captain, a 4/4/4 defence officer, and a 4 star engineer) goes into battle.

Is combined skill only requirement ? - f.e. willl captain with skills 5/5/3 be skilled enough for MICT ?

[Requiemfang]

Hi! I've just read description of this mod and it seems exactly what I need, however one thing is not clear to me:

MICT is only activated for capital ships with crews with a minimum rating of 4 in all of their primary skills.

MICT Movement is triggered when a capital ship with a crew that's good enough (combined skill = 80, at least roughly a 4/4/4 captain, a 4/4/4 defence officer, and a 4 star engineer) goes into battle.

Is combined skill only requirement ? - f.e. willl captain with skills 5/5/3 be skilled enough for MICT ?

far as I know no... a 3/5/5 crew isn't good enough for MICT it has to be a min 4/4/4 to run MICT.

[w.evans]

Someone read the description!

80 combinedskill. So having a 5/5/3 crew would indeed be enough. Sorry if the description isn't clear about that.

Also, if you have several ships and only one MICT-capable crew, you could assign your non-MICT capable crews in a squadron under the ship with the good crew, and the whole squadron will try to fly MICT. If getting the mod from the Nexus, you'll need MICT_supp2 in addition to the base mod for that.

[debstar2610]

Hi,
I m looking for some tips when using fleet whith mict

1) Actually, when grouping for e.g. 3 balors or succelus, the leader responds to my order quicly by jumping and positionning in the right way.
By the subbordonates make time to correcly align to the target :/
So maybe, making group of balors or succelus is not a good idea ?

2) When the target is performing an escape jump, the balors or succelus ( or others ships follow it ) . But, actually, the balors and succelus can be destroyed after jumping , as they are jumpong near the same beacon as the target .
So maybe would it efficient to assign a big ship like Arawn as leader of balors or succeluss fleet ?

3) is it possible to improove the subbordonaets response time and behaviours ?

thanks

[w.evans]

Thanks for the feedback! Let's do that from the bottom up.

3) is it possible to improve the subbordonaets response time and behaviours ?

Probably, but I'll need more to go on than "improve."

The idea, at the moment, is that squadrons should try and stick together unless the whole squadron is authorized to attack, in which case, all of the members of the squadron individually look for anything hostile and attack as enemies are detected. Attack authorization is done by:

- giving the squadron commander a command to attack (be it to attack a particular target, or to attack everything in a zone),
- giving the squadron commander a command to patrol,
- or assigning ships to escort a non-combat ship.

In any of the above cases, MICT ships will actively look for targets, and attack as hostile ships come into their radar range.

Only way I could think of to make them more responsive is to have them scan for targets and engage all the time, essentially extend case 3 above, but apply that regardless of what they're assigned to escort.

Problem with that is that there are cases where you don't want your ships to engage.

For example, if you're playing against a hostile PMC and you're trying to sneak a squadron past that deathtrap in Wrecksville. Another example is if the squadron is simply en route to somewhere else. If they're always scanning for targets and actively moving to engage, in both cases, members of the squadron would move out of formation and attack while the squadron commander continues on his/her way, and there would be no way to prevent them doing so short of disbanding the squadron and giving them each individual movement orders.

So maybe would it efficient to assign a big ship like Arawn as leader of balors or succeluss fleet ?

Actually, in my last long game, I had several small squadrons of 2 Stromvoks and a Titurel following a Sucellus, and my big hunter-killer squadron was 3 Sucellus and I believe it was 8 Balors. Worked quite well, if I remember correctly. Also had a squadron of 5 Taranis for close-in fighting and who functioned as a sort of honor guard, a fun little squadron of 3 Gangrene Chasers, 4 Arawns each with carrier-based fighter wings for area security, and a toy squadron with a Light Sul with carrier-based fighter wing (all of the ships I had claimed) and a couple of Stromvoks following a Sucellus.

But yeah, squadrons following a Sucellus should work particularly well since I spent most of the time developing the mod with Sucellus-led squadrons. I find that long-ranged ships in general make good squadron leaders because the squadron tends to stick close to them until they decide to attack. If the leader is long-ranged, that puts the squadron at a distance from hostiles before they engage rather than moving close to an enemy and then deciding to attack.

2) When the target is performing an escape jump, the balors or succelus ( or others ships follow it ) . But, actually, the balors and succelus can be destroyed after jumping , as they are jumpong near the same beacon as the target .

This, I don't understand, I'm afraid. If a squadron commander is jumping to escape, he/she should end up away from enemies, so the squadron following should land the whole squadron in relative safety, right?

There is a case which could land them in trouble: if they retreat away from a target and land close to a different hostile. However, in that case, they should acquire the hostile close to them, and since the condition to retreat should still hold true, they should try to retreat again. At least, I remember it working that way. Not sure if I later reverted that for some reason.

There is a theoretical (at least, I've never encountered it yet) case where they retreat, land close to a hostile ship, retreat again, and land close to yet another hostile ship, et cetera until they're blown up. Problem with preventing this is that I haven't yet found a good way to plot movement against a group of ships that works well. I find that it's most effective to plot movements relative to a single object, and the vanilla scripts do it that way as well. In any case, haven't yet found a feasible solution for this. And it happens so rarely (at least, I haven't seen it happen yet), that I wasn't really pushed to find one.

1) Actually, when grouping for e.g. 3 balors or succelus, the leader responds to my order quicly by jumping and positionning in the right way.
By the subbordonates make time to correcly align to the target :/
So maybe, making group of balors or succelus is not a good idea ?

They have to. It should already be a lot faster if, for example, you order the squadron to travel between zones because the squadron members get their leader's destination and go there rather than waiting until their leader leaves the zone. I remember discussing the boost-to-doom with cicero111 back when I wasn't modding yet: a whole squadron boosting at the same time and getting to where they're going absolutely at the same time without breaking formation. Unfortunately, never quite managed to get there.

Are you talking about moving between systems/sectors/zones though, or about combat movement?

If the problem is squadron ships taking too long to engage, I did make it a habit to give squadrons patrol orders when moving between zones rather than fly to orders in case I didn't mind them stopping to take potshots at things right after they get to where they're going. I give fly to orders if I don't want them to engage for some reason. For example, if I have them go to a zone that I know is safe, or if it's a squad of Balors and there's a chance that there might be a lot of friendlies in the area.

Sorry, that turned into quite a wall. Hope it helps.

[debstar2610]

Thanks for feedback, i ve learnt more and testing new game experience !

For example, if you're playing against a hostile PMC and you're trying to sneak a squadron past that deathtrap in Wrecksville. Another example is if the squadron is simply en route to somewhere else. If they're always scanning for targets and actively moving to engage, in both cases, members of the squadron would move out of formation and attack while the squadron commander continues on his/her way, and there would be no way to prevent them doing so short of disbanding the squadron and giving them each individual movement orders.

Exactly, i understand and agree with you

But yeah, squadrons following a Sucellus should work particularly well since I spent most of the time developing the mod with Sucellus-led squadrons. I find that long-ranged ships in general make good squadron leaders because the squadron tends to stick close to them until they decide to attack. If the leader is long-ranged, that puts the squadron at a distance from hostiles before they engage rather than moving close to an enemy and then deciding to attack.

I have to try that. But what happen if, the ennemy (with mict commander ) is jumping near the poor succelus before the arrival of wingmen ?
I did not noticed yet, but is there a jump delay between tactical jumps ?
Actually, i always use a 'tank' ship with 'ranged ship'. So that the 'tank' ship is targeted first by the ennemy.

debstar2610 a écrit:
2) When the target is performing an escape jump, the balors or succelus ( or others ships follow it ) . But, actually, the balors and succelus can be destroyed after jumping , as they are jumpong near the same beacon as the target Oops.

This, I don't understand, I'm afraid. If a squadron commander is jumping to escape, he/she should end up away from enemies, so the squadron following should land the whole squadron in relative safety, right?

For e.g. , I have to kill a Xenon I or Fulmekron.
I give attack order to my squad, they start attacking and, sometimes, the Xenon I is retreating in a jump beacon ( i suppose it has a 4 stars commander too ! )
Then, my squad is actually following it to the jump beacon.
So that the poor balors just pop near the jump beacon and the xenon I ... sometimes, they don't have the time to perform a retreat before dying :/

My first solution is to stop all my squads when the Xenon I is retreating to a jump beacon, then i ask the 'my big ship to jump first and use it as decoy to secure the balors and succelus.

If the problem is squadron ships taking too long to engage, I did make it a habit to give squadrons patrol orders when moving between zones rather than fly to orders in case I didn't mind them stopping to take potshots at things right after they get to where they're going. I give fly to orders if I don't want them to engage for some reason. For example, if I have them go to a zone that I know is safe, or if it's a squad of Balors and there's a chance that there might be a lot of friendlies in the area.

I always use the 'attack target' from the radial menu on the target. I start to use the patrol or attack all ennemies order now, and it seems to give more 'responsive results' ! I have to do more testing with multiple fleet combination and various ennemies.

Some questions
-does the MICT commander perform rolling moves , in order to take advantage of its best dps turrets,?
-is there a way to the MICT commander to know wich side of his ship should attack the ennemy ? ( for eg, avoiding to attack in the jumpdrive side ! )

[w.evans]

But what happen if, the ennemy (with mict commander ) is jumping near the poor succelus before the arrival of wingmen ?

Then you're in for quite a show! I have had quite a lot of satisfaction from MICT ships fighting other MICT ships. I remember my first post-MICT exploration of Maelstrom: my fleet was jumped by a MICT Xenon I and at least one K that was also running MICT. I just started getting pummeled by torpedoes and had no idea where they were coming from. My fleet won in the end, but I think I lost half of that fleet? Was fun.

Initiative plays a huge role because MICT ships tend to hit you with their heaviest guns where you're weakest. And engines and jump drives are priority targets. This is especially effective against MICT ships because mobility plays such a big role.

As you mentioned a bit further down, the order in which your ships attack can also be important, especially when fighting other MICT ships, or when your ships start at a disadvantage.

I did not noticed yet, but is there a jump delay between tactical jumps ?

Yes, there is. They need about a minute between jumps. If they can't jump, they boost or move.

Actually, i always use a 'tank' ship with 'ranged ship'. So that the 'tank' ship is targeted first by the ennemy.

That does work. Big, heavy ships like the Arawn are very good for this role, although I like Stromvoks because they're cheap enough that they could be fielded in relatively large numbers, they're fast and could move to distract opponents and move away when they get in trouble fairly quickly, and I get some particular satisfaction when they do well just from movement because that's really all they have. They break easy though.

For e.g. , I have to kill a Xenon I or Fulmekron.
I give attack order to my squad, they start attacking and, sometimes, the Xenon I is retreating in a jump beacon ( i suppose it has a 4 stars commander too ! )
Then, my squad is actually following it to the jump beacon.
So that the poor balors just pop near the jump beacon and the xenon I ... sometimes, they don't have the time to perform a retreat before dying :/

My first solution is to stop all my squads when the Xenon I is retreating to a jump beacon, then i ask the 'my big ship to jump first and use it as decoy to secure the balors and succelus.

Ah! Hm. Your solution sounds like a good one, actually, although I don't think that's something I'd want to automate. This sounds more like the new vanilla flee maneouver actually, and I have to admit I haven't done a lot of testing since 4.0 came out. So when a target retreats to a jump beacon, your ships also jump to the same jump beacon and end up close to their target? Should probably look into that. Thanks for pointing it out.

I always use the 'attack target' from the radial menu on the target. I start to use the patrol or attack all ennemies order now, and it seems to give more 'responsive results' ! I have to do more testing with multiple fleet combination and various ennemies.

Have fun experimenting!

-does the MICT commander perform rolling moves , in order to take advantage of its best dps turrets,?

They do the Sparky Sparkycorp maneouver: they try to align the side that can do the most damage against the opponent's side that has the least guns and keep hammering that side. This has the fortunate side effect of often positioning them against the part of a target where the engines and/or jump drive are located because those are usually the least defended. Notable exceptions are the Teladi ships.

They do not roll to use all of their sides. The idea is interesting, but I think the reload rate of turrets is faster than the rate at which these behemoths can roll, so probably isn't worth the trouble. Could also throw them out of position since their orientation would change. Sounds fun though. Might explore the possibility one of these days.

-is there a way to the MICT commander to know wich side of his ship should attack the ennemy ? ( for eg, avoiding to attack in the jumpdrive side ! )

They don't look at where their own jump drives are and try to shield those. Although the only ships that should orient their jump drives at the enemy on purpose are the Teladi ships because I think someone mentioned that their jump drives are located in front of the ships? That's also where their heaviest guns are, so they'll still point that at the enemy. They have JET/LRs though, so they should at least start at fairly long range.

[BoostHungry]

Does this mod assist with boarding? IE: Will friendly ships destroy a ship I'm in the process of trying to board?