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RegisterMe
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Re: Trump

Post by RegisterMe »

Chips wrote: Mon, 18. Nov 19, 21:07
RegisterMe wrote: Mon, 18. Nov 19, 20:42 And there goes 50 years of global diplomacy towards the Middle East.
To be fair... will that make any difference on the ground at all?
Well it might. It will give Israel a fillip whilst at the same time knocking back aspirations of the Palestinians for a viable state. It also ignores the commonly accepted interpretation of international law and undermines the UN.

What hope any peace plan (least of all Trump's mooted peace plan) now?
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 »

RegisterMe wrote: Mon, 18. Nov 19, 21:34
Chips wrote: Mon, 18. Nov 19, 21:07
RegisterMe wrote: Mon, 18. Nov 19, 20:42 And there goes 50 years of global diplomacy towards the Middle East.
To be fair... will that make any difference on the ground at all?
Well it might. It will give Israel a fillip whilst at the same time knocking back aspirations of the Palestinians for a viable state. It also ignores the commonly accepted interpretation of international law and undermines the UN.

What hope any peace plan (least of all Trump's mooted peace plan) now?
Like anyone actually believed Jared Kushner was going to "solve the middle east"
Reap what you sow.

"I don't think people should be taking medical advice from me" - Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Secretary Health and Human Services, May 2025
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Chips
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Re: Trump

Post by Chips »

RegisterMe wrote: Mon, 18. Nov 19, 21:34
Chips wrote: Mon, 18. Nov 19, 21:07
RegisterMe wrote: Mon, 18. Nov 19, 20:42 And there goes 50 years of global diplomacy towards the Middle East.
To be fair... will that make any difference on the ground at all?
Well it might. It will give Israel a fillip whilst at the same time knocking back aspirations of the Palestinians for a viable state. It also ignores the commonly accepted interpretation of international law and undermines the UN.

What hope any peace plan (least of all Trump's mooted peace plan) now?
But Israel has been in violation with the settlements for how many years? About 40? The US has not condemned them the entire time - they're Israel's biggest supporter.
Additionally, forgive me for pointing out, the US has never recognised the state of Palestine as a country either; nor would it. Neither has the UK, nor most of Europe.

I honestly don't believe this will make any actual difference, beyond that perhaps Barak Obama eschewed tradition to a very minor degree... but I don't think the Palestinians are going to be sat going "oh gosh darnit, there goes our hopes..." off the back of this news. It's more likely an affirmation of the actual position the US has held since it started. In other words admitting what everyone has known from the very start.

This (to me) is on a par with if Putin had said "Yes, the little green men are Russian soldiers" during the annexation of Crimea. Everyone knew they were, the Russians knew everyone knew, but because no-one would officially admit it there was nothing to be done.

Furthermore, had they actually admitted it... there was nothing to be done.

So a sad state of affairs? Certainly. Illuminating, a revelation, a complete reversal of policy and actual belief? I definitely don't believe so. Just business as usual and actually admitting US policy over the past 40 years.
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Re: Trump

Post by Grim Lock »

The EU stance on those settlements is that they are illegal according to international law, just two weeks ago they passed a law that stated products made in that specific region can't say "made in Israel", also the EU considers the region as essential for the future Palistinian state, according to EU foreign affairs chief Federica Mogherini. this stance is also shared by the UN.
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 »

Aside from further inflaming tensions in the middle east, Trump has done us a tremendous disservice by unilaterally acting on this. Now we'll be put in the awkward position of either standing by his decision and remain in Israel's good graces, or back the UN and honk Israel off.
Reap what you sow.

"I don't think people should be taking medical advice from me" - Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Secretary Health and Human Services, May 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s65IW4dh_6w
eladan
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Re: Trump

Post by eladan »

Chips wrote: Mon, 18. Nov 19, 21:07
RegisterMe wrote: Mon, 18. Nov 19, 20:42 And there goes 50 years of global diplomacy towards the Middle East.
To be fair... will that make any difference on the ground at all?
Like much of politics it's all about the look of it. Israel will be able to point to this as vindication of its actions, and it will strengthen its hand in any peace negotiations with Palestine. And it's really going to p-off the rest of the middle east.
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felter
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Re: Trump

Post by felter »

I don't know why everyone is getting excited about what America has to say about Israel or anything else for that matter. America has a corrupt government, one that has a problem with facts and the truth. So much so that anything coming out or being said by an American government official, cannot be trusted to be either honest, factual or truthful. The only thing you can do with what America says and does now, is to look at whatever it is and turn it around and look and see what it is not, as whatever it is they are saying probably has 99.9% of being wrong and a lie.

There was a time when America had respect and it was worth listening to whatever they had to say, that time has passed, now all they deserve is to be ignored and shunned, as they cannot be trusted on anything they do or say.
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Re: Trump

Post by RegisterMe »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POBP1uwgYDY

PBS live impeachment hearings today (Williams and Vindman)
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eladan
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Re: Trump

Post by eladan »

felter wrote: Tue, 19. Nov 19, 14:35 I don't know why everyone is getting excited about what America has to say about Israel or anything else for that matter.
Because what the US says or does has a measurable (and disproportionate) effect on the rest of the world. As just one recent example, I don't know what it's like in the UK, but over here, Trumps little trade spat with China is causing fairly large ripples.
America has a corrupt government, one that has a problem with facts and the truth. So much so that anything coming out or being said by an American government official, cannot be trusted to be either honest, factual or truthful. The only thing you can do with what America says and does now, is to look at whatever it is and turn it around and look and see what it is not, as whatever it is they are saying probably has 99.9% of being wrong and a lie.
I don't necessarily disagree with you there, but I'd argue that you should be very wary of anything *any* government says or does. (How's Brexit going?)
There was a time when America had respect and it was worth listening to whatever they had to say, that time has passed, now all they deserve is to be ignored and shunned, as they cannot be trusted on anything they do or say.
The trouble is, you can't ignore them. They are a large and powerful nation that can absolutely ruin anyone's day if they get annoyed enough. With that in mind, the US position on any policy area is likely to be a major factor in other governments choosing their own position. Which will often affect you in minor or major ways. They're not going away any time soon, so you need to pay attention to them - if only to be able to judge which way to jump to be as little affected by them as possible.

I would add, that if the US were *not* the 800lb gorilla in the room, that Russia and China would absolutely step into that void, and you would need to be paying attention to what *they* say and do. I personally would prefer the US, as bad as their government currently is.
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Re: Trump

Post by Tycow »

RegisterMe wrote: Tue, 19. Nov 19, 14:57 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POBP1uwgYDY

PBS live impeachment hearings today (Williams and Vindman)
Thanks RM. :)
RegisterMe
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Re: Trump

Post by RegisterMe »

I'm not sure I've come to any firm conclusions yet, but the Republican's are certainly having a better time attacking Vindman than any of the other testimony I've seen.
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 »

RegisterMe wrote: Tue, 19. Nov 19, 18:44 I'm not sure I've come to any firm conclusions yet, but the Republican's are certainly having a better time attacking Vindman than any of the other testimony I've seen.
Ehhh depends on how you define "better time". Vindman appears to me to be a bit nervous speaking in front of the cameras (can't blame him) and the republicans have used that to their advantage. Other than the point made that he may have jumped his chain of command, I'm not seeing any issues with Vindman's actions he's testified to. Even to that chain of command jumping issue is largely irrelevant and is rather minor in that specific circumstance. I agree he should have notified Morrison of his concerns as well as whoever else he notified, but that doesn't change anything.
Reap what you sow.

"I don't think people should be taking medical advice from me" - Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Secretary Health and Human Services, May 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s65IW4dh_6w
RegisterMe
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Re: Trump

Post by RegisterMe »

Yeah he said he tried to notify Morrison, but that Morrison "did not avail himself". I think Morrison is up next?

They also, successfully I think, implied that he may have made himself appear more important than he actually was. It doesn't really matter whether or not this is true if they can then lean on it to undermine him as a witness.

And it will be interesting to see them press Morrison re Vindman. There's a real discrepancy between "Vindman is a leaker" and "Vindman is an excellent officer" (I'm paraphrasing).
I can't breathe.

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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 »

RegisterMe wrote: Tue, 19. Nov 19, 19:11 Yeah he said he tried to notify Morrison, but that Morrison "did not avail himself". I think Morrison is up next?

They also, successfully I think, implied that he may have made himself appear more important than he actually was. It doesn't really matter whether or not this is true if they can then lean on it to undermine him as a witness.

And it will be interesting to see them press Morrison re Vindman. There's a real discrepancy between "Vindman is a leaker" and "Vindman is an excellent officer" (I'm paraphrasing).
oh, you're right. If there was any evidence of him leaking anything, he would have been charged and sent to a court-martial, I'm sure. From everything we've seen, his record is spotless, his performance reviews sing his praises... I find it hard to believe that something of that nature would have escaped any formal repercussions. But, this is what the orange overlord demands! Misdirect and mislead!
Reap what you sow.

"I don't think people should be taking medical advice from me" - Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Secretary Health and Human Services, May 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s65IW4dh_6w
RegisterMe
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Re: Trump

Post by RegisterMe »

Sean Patrick Maloney is pretty good at this stuff.
I can't breathe.

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RegisterMe
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Re: Trump

Post by RegisterMe »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkN4P7R5stE

C=SPAN live coverage of Sondland's testimony.
I can't breathe.

- George Floyd, 25th May 2020
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 »

Time to see if Sonland is gonna bow to the orange overlord or save his own bacon.
Reap what you sow.

"I don't think people should be taking medical advice from me" - Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Secretary Health and Human Services, May 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s65IW4dh_6w
RegisterMe
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Re: Trump

Post by RegisterMe »

A lot more bacon than orange so far.
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 »

Seems so. I'm interested to hear what he has to say about the unsecured call in the restaurant.
Reap what you sow.

"I don't think people should be taking medical advice from me" - Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Secretary Health and Human Services, May 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s65IW4dh_6w
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Tycow
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Re: Trump

Post by Tycow »

I think he's dancing over the line of bacon saving (surprised by some of the things he's said so far regarding Guilliani) and satiating Don Cheeto (trying to sully the waters regarding the testimonials yesterday). Not a fan so far, but they're clearly trying to throw Rudy under the campaign bus.

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