I am starting to hate the new flight mechanics

[alt3rn1ty]

What ships does that happen with?

For me adaptive steering is off and I fly in combat with autoroll off, at least for small and medium ships. When I mouse steer to the sides they do a sort of cosmetic tilt to the other direction, but don't continue rolling at all.

I *have* seen some erroneous rolling when auto-roll is on and the ship is angled downward (not perfectly, but like at 45 degrees) but that sounds unrelated.

The cosmetic tilt wasn't it .. The problem I just discovered, is me
I recline back in an armchair, laptop is on a swinging stand, with my arm fully rested and at the end of it is the mouse on its mat on the table next to the chair.
Because I just move my wrist left and right, instead of the whole forearm, when I move the mouse left / right I scribe a small arc instead of going in a straight line left or right. Result of that is when I go left, I also pull down left a bit, and the opposite also applies, so aswell as yawing left I am also pulling the nose down.

You are right, if I make sure the mouse travels left in a straight line, it doesn't also cause any slight roll.

[jlehtone]

If I understand correctly, it refers to Yaw and Pitch. The concept behind adaptive steering is that in some cases, using Roll + Pitch is faster than Yaw, so the system automatically selects the more efficient option.

This idea is clearly inherited from atmospheric aircraft, where the ailerons are positioned far from the center of mass. However, in space, thrusters are typically placed at the bow and stern, meaning that for many ships, Pitch and Yaw should be significantly faster than Roll.

Yes. I did omit pitch from the list as it is not part of the Adaptive Steering "feature". You always have "up/down".

[johnmorgan302]

I totally agree. This is a sci-fi fantasy game. I like the fact that boost is separated from shields, but I dislike the build up waiting for combat engines to kick in. I would like to disable the new flight model.

[Sorasil]

I totally agree. This is a sci-fi fantasy game. I like the fact that boost is separated from shields, but I dislike the build up waiting for combat engines to kick in. I would like to disable the new flight model.

Im sure there will be a mod that changes the stats of the engines to have no spool up time. If that was the problem with the flight model?

[Submarine]

I am critical of the new flight model because of the side slip. I have been trying to understand what is going on as it is so confusing, discussed in the beta thread.

I made videos to explain, here is side slipping of a Perseus with Argon Mk3 combat engines. Paranid S ships and Argon engines seem to be worst for this.

https://youtu.be/coharfkGFM4

Another thing which I find does not ring true is the side slip coming out of travel drive because if you correct with boost, it goes back to the side slip vector it was doing if you stop boosting which feels wrong to me.

https://youtu.be/3askl0QCnV4

I am curious if anyone else finds it annoying, or is it just me?

[vvvvvvvv]

I am curious if anyone else finds it annoying, or is it just me?

Because space has no air, side slip nd sliding in general is what makes space flight different from air flight. So since the first version of flight model beta my impression was positive. Because it finally felt like I'm in space, that there are proper physics and ships have mass. And I fly split ships which slide a lot more. The logic by the way is that forward (and backward) thrusters are stronger than sideways ones.

It is probably not just you, because there are other people who are not fond of the change, but I would say a lot of people do not share your viewpoint.

There is also one important point. The game does not display how long does it take for you to reach max speed. So you'd need to divide max speed by acceleration to see how long it takes to brake. If you're flying paranid engines, then those have very high travel speed, but low acceleration. Meaning they take much longer to brake. The quickest brake happens on Terran engines. Lower travel speed, but fastest acceleration and shortest countdown.

[alt3rn1ty]

I am curious if anyone else finds it annoying, or is it just me?

It took a little bit of getting used to, but overall I am positive on the changes, dogfighting is my best experience in X4 I feel it has been enhanced and made more interesting.

Once you know the details which were given in the Flight Model FAQ, the changes to your ships become apparent ..

Q: How does flying feel different?
A: While ship mass, thrusters, and engines have always dictated how ships handle, they now do so more naturally and with fewer sudden changes in acceleration. There are more pronounced differences between engine types, manufacturers, and models, too.

Paranid: Fastest travel drives, and ships that fly almost like they are on rails, but much reduced manoeuvrability at high velocity.
Terran: Quickest travel drive charge-up time, very fast travel drive acceleration. Their ships are generally easy to use.
Split: Fastest regular engines, and just enough travel drive performance to intercept most targets. Their ill-controlled drifting is a challenge for rookie pilots though.
Argon: Very aggressive boosting that can offset their poor travel drive acceleration. Their combat ships benefit a lot from improved thrusters.
Teladi: Designed to outlast opponents in combat and haul efficiently at any distance.
Boron: The weakness of their regular engines can be offset by considered use of boosting and their pre-charged travel drives.

.. I started a new game and building up everything with these changes in mind is beneficial (though I understand the wish to continue a long term playthrough, my restart took me away from a 4 year continuation).

Making individual ships shine under the new Flight model needs the in game mods. Some really benefit from mods like Nanotube which reduces mass.

[Submarine]

I am curious if anyone else finds it annoying, or is it just me?

It took a little bit of getting used to, but overall I am positive on the changes, dogfighting is my best experience in X4 I feel it has been enhanced and made more interesting.

Once you know the details which were given in the Flight Model FAQ, the changes to your ships become apparent ..
...
Making individual ships shine under the new Flight model needs the in game mods. Some really benefit from mods like Nanotube which reduces mass.

I restart frequently when there is a major map change but having done the research a couple of times I saved a budget start so I can keep the same character and research when starting again which makes it less of a loss and more of an adventure.

Thanks for the link and mod advice I will experiment with Nanotube, using Anchor with Polisher at the moment which is better than not using them.

I did twig the differences between species drives because I made a study of the different drives as they actually play for beta testing last year before release.

viewtopic.php?p=5260138#p5260138

IMHO the problem is Small ships generally and particularly the Paranid ships and Moreya which is derived from the Paranid Pegasus, so may have inherited its code model and everyone who does the Geometric Owl missions has one of these.

The main issue I am seeing is lateral braking thrust proportional to lateral velocity is inappropriately low, meaning these ships slide and slide sideways.

It strikes me any lateral velocity registers as zero velocity in the player readout but can be appreciably higher than zero.

If the engine also sees it as zero that might account for the low lateral braking thrust resulting in a long drawn out sideways sliding. Just a thought.

[vvvvvvvv]

The main issue I am seeing is lateral braking thrust proportional to lateral velocity is inappropriately low, meaning these ships slide and slide sideways.

In my case at least, it actually aligns with default expectations in space.

For fast lateral braking your ship would have to be a sphere or cube composed out of main engines pointing in all directions. This setup would have equal braking power and acceleration in all directions and it would be jarring if it didn't.

For "interceptor" type ship we have, the expectation would be that it accelerates very quickly only when it is flying forward.

The important thing here, that if this was played staright, to brake you'd need to turn around, nd point your main thrusters forward. And only in that case you'd brake as quickly as you accelerate. That is, however, going too far for many people, hence the game allows you to stop without that maneuver. So the game allows you to stop when you're pointing in direction of movement or opposite of it.

You generally experience this sort of thing if you play space engineers or kerbal. To accelerate quickly, you need powerful thrusters. If you do not have powerful thrusters pointing in some direction, then you cannot accelerate quickly in that direction.

The interesting point here is some teladi ship which have rotating engines. I'm not sure if moveable thrusters was implemented correctly.

[Submarine]

The main issue I am seeing is lateral braking thrust proportional to lateral velocity is inappropriately low, meaning these ships slide and slide sideways.

In my case at least, it actually aligns with default expectations in space.
...
That is, however, going too far for many people, hence the game allows you to stop without that maneuver. So the game allows you to stop when you're pointing in direction of movement or opposite of it.

Thanks for your reply, I have played both KSP and SE and also Jumpgate TRI which is ancient now but was hilarious in its time as it has no drag, requires vectored thrusting and is completely unforgiving of collisions. The choice was to laugh or cry and laughter was more fun, everyone crashed. So I do understand the principles and have had plenty of practice, probably a bit too much.

The point you make is perfectly valid that many people do not always want this kind of problem flying in X4 for whatever reason, hence flight assist. If it is going too far to require vectored thrust then imho the same is true of vectored deceleration thrust. Plus I can see no earthly reason why redirecting thrust 90° would be weaker than 180° so none of the justifications ring true for me.

Players do have the option to disable flight assist and going with a credible zero g space simulation if they want to fly like that. That can be fun.

I feel its not wise or kind to try to force this on players who are not inclined.

[vvvvvvvv]

The point you make is perfectly valid that many people do not always want this kind of problem flying in X4 for whatever reason, hence flight assist. If it is going too far to require vectored thrust then imho the same is true of vectored deceleration thrust. Plus I can see no earthly reason why redirecting thrust 90° would be weaker than 180° so none of the justifications ring true for me.

Well, the logic here is that you still need directional awareness, but do not need to make full "thruster forward turn". So for me it is an acceptable compromise that makes it feel like space, but does not make it feel like air flight.

Basically, it goes like this.

I played plenty of Elite Dangerous, and my main beef with it was that with FA-ON, it feels like an airplane. FA-OFF gives more closer to life experience (though there's still speed limit you can't disable because reasons), but it disables everything, and that's going a bit too far.

The player (or me) usually has no issue cancelling lateral movement. Cancelling rotation is much more annoying, and without tool assistance usually it can't be ever stopped fully. Likewise, flying near planet surface in ED with FA-OFF is interesting, but not very comfortable, because you have to control lift manually by moving gamepad stick to that one sweet spot where you don't begin to fall down. So it would be desirable if flight assist was split into several systems which plyer can turn off, and that would be "lateral assistance", "rotation assistance" and "gravity counter". That would be probably ideal scenario.

In case of X4, the current model fits EXACTLY into that sweet spot. Where I don't feel like I'm in a plane, but don't need to counter rotation manually. X4 FA-Off is still usable in stuff like hyperion, but split ships allow you to circle strafe a K without turning it off. Hence the positive experience.

Regarding your video. I believe you're flying Pegasus.

I recommend to try Moreya. In following configuration.
Paranid Travel Mk3 engine.
Nanotube (aim at -22 drag and mass)
Slingshot (Aim at 25+ forward thrust, 40+ travel, ideally 45).
You can also trow purple shield regeneration, aiming at -65 delay, I guess.

You'll get something like this:


This is less powerful than modded XPerimental:


But I found it to be quite comfortable to control. 30 seconds to max speed for Moreya, and 16 for experimental. Neither had an issue with either of them.

[Daemonjax]

I am critical of the new flight model because of the side slip. I have been trying to understand what is going on as it is so confusing, discussed in the beta thread.

I made videos to explain, here is side slipping of a Perseus with Argon Mk3 combat engines. Paranid S ships and Argon engines seem to be worst for this.

https://youtu.be/coharfkGFM4

Another thing which I find does not ring true is the side slip coming out of travel drive because if you correct with boost, it goes back to the side slip vector it was doing if you stop boosting which feels wrong to me.

https://youtu.be/3askl0QCnV4

I am curious if anyone else finds it annoying, or is it just me?

What's up with the stuttering in those videos? Is that how the game plays for you, or is it recording at 30 fps or something? I think I threw up in my mouth a little.

[Submarine]

I am critical of the new flight model because of the side slip. I have been trying to understand what is going on as it is so confusing, discussed in the beta thread.

I made videos to explain, here is side slipping of a Perseus with Argon Mk3 combat engines. Paranid S ships and Argon engines seem to be worst for this.

https://youtu.be/coharfkGFM4

Another thing which I find does not ring true is the side slip coming out of travel drive because if you correct with boost, it goes back to the side slip vector it was doing if you stop boosting which feels wrong to me.

https://youtu.be/3askl0QCnV4

I am curious if anyone else finds it annoying, or is it just me?

What's up with the stuttering in those videos? Is that how the game plays for you, or is it recording at 30 fps or something? I think I threw up in my mouth a little.

Oh, yes you are right there is a little lurch in there. I sent a report to YT.

The lurching, that which is not due to my steering at any rate, is some kind of YT playback artifact. The captures I uploaded do play smoother.

Microsoft Game Bar captures at a modest 33 - 35 FPS but it is at least smooth. I suspect YT downgraded playback to 30 or 24 and are skipping a frame every few frames or something like that. Very perceptive of you

[MarStrMind]

I totally agree. This is a sci-fi fantasy game. I like the fact that boost is separated from shields, but I dislike the build up waiting for combat engines to kick in. I would like to disable the new flight model.

You may want to look at VRO, or the REM Overhaul (physics model mod only - hardcore Newtonian physics).

However you will not be able to go back to the previous flight model as it was prior to 7.5.