There is no diplomacy? We have a New Endgame Crises but no diplomacy??? :Poll

[Ketsa]

I voted yes, but I fear they would implement it wrong, making it an annoyance.

[alexthespaniard]

My second request is that no matter how big I am as a "faction", I would like the ability to communicate to my close allies (20+ rep) that I need assistance and / or that their assets are under attack. It's very immersion-breaking when I'm in Second Contact defending allied stations from HOP, XEN, and TER attack fleets, all the while those allies (whose stations are at risk) are off in some corner of the sector flying in circles. This could be an extra option or two in the comm channel, things like "Requesting assistance" or "Enemy detected at my location". The game could be scripted to have the receiver of those comms (and any fleet they control) to "attack all enemies in area" where I'm at, which is a cheap way for the developers to add a bit more upper-level management (an "admiral AI" if you will) to the game.

It seems like a great idea to me, and I believe there is already a mechanism in place here that could help prevent any abuse of this type of action.´

To limit this diplomatic action a bit, they could use diplomatic points for making the call (if I have +20 and I call them, it costs me -3, resulting in +17). It would also be interesting if, when an allied faction is attacked heavily, you have the option to provide support for a certain amount of money +3 reputation and a bonus for ships destroyed.

[MakerLinux]

It seems like a great idea to me, and I believe there is already a mechanism in place here that could help prevent any abuse of this type of action.´

To limit this diplomatic action a bit, they could use diplomatic points for making the call (if I have +20 and I call them, it costs me -3, resulting in +17). It would also be interesting if, when an allied faction is attacked heavily, you have the option to provide support for a certain amount of money +3 reputation and a bonus for ships destroyed.

But that would make absolutely no sense. You'd be helping them to defend their assets, you are not doing something negative that should taint your reputation.
I agree with safeguards to prevent abuse of the diplomatic calls, but I don't think faction relations are designed as expendable points for specific occasions. I think a different mechanism should be used for that rate limiting.

[Crimsonraziel]

It really depends on how it is implemented. I really dislike those "being freinds with A makes you enemy of B" approaches. I'd rather have no diplomacy at all than that. Manipulating alliances on the other hand is something I'd be interested in.

[jlehtone]

I really dislike those "being freinds with A makes you enemy of B" approaches.

But realistic? For example, Russia has made "not our friend" statements about countries that support Ukraine. Granted, games can be escape from reality.


Is reputation diplomacy? Is diplomacy a way to modify reputation? Btw, we do have a "diplomacy button" in the game. It says "Declare War" in big, friendly letters.

[alexthespaniard]

It really depends on how it is implemented. I really dislike those "being freinds with A makes you enemy of B" approaches. I'd rather have no diplomacy at all than that. Manipulating alliances on the other hand is something I'd be interested in.

I agree, but it depends on the level of friendship or the type of relationship and how you benefit from it. For example, I don’t think the USA would be very happy if Germany started a close relationship with Russia. Without getting into actual politics, I could mention other examples like in the War of Spanish Succession in the 1700s: France would not have been happy if Bavaria had started having good relations with England. It's not definitive, but it may cause penalties. Or in tymes of Rome relations of Syracuse with Carthage Rome also would be angry.

[ApoxNM]

What I would like to see are agents, diplomats, spies and such, you can send on missions with their own ships, to influence factions standings, steal blueprints, pirate ships, manipulate stations.
With a custom module, where you can house and train your agents. (maybe also crew training center. (all that unlocks once you own a sector).

[MegaJohnny]

I always think a "Mount and Blade in space" game mode for X4 would be cracking, but I just don't think it's in the vision for X.

Hell, the "friend of my enemy" principle is directly contradicted in the Paranid plot with a little lore blurb from Dal ("they don't like to condemn individuals").

I think Egosoft are careful not to "get in the player's way" too much by setting 4X-style risks to expansion, or force the player to get involved in something big when they don't want to. They took a tiny step in that direction with the first iteration of the existential crisis, and due to feedback it's now behind a research item, so it absolutely cannot be an imposition on the player.

I would like to see a universe with more bite, but in reality I think I'm happiest with Egosoft's current approach.

[Aegir86]

I think Egosoft are careful not to "get in the player's way" too much by setting 4X-style risks to expansion, or force the player to get involved in something big when they don't want to. They took a tiny step in that direction with the first iteration of the existential crisis, and due to feedback it's now behind a research item, so it absolutely cannot be an imposition on the player.

I would like to see a universe with more bite, but in reality I think I'm happiest with Egosoft's current approach.

The majority of the game mechanics feedback atm is in the early to mid game grind to power and wealth. The general census this is also the funnest part of the game. Once you can print ships theres really not much to the game besides "tinkering" with a universe that seems hard coded to maintain equilibrium. Its nice to an extent if you find building sand castles on the beach fun.

More risk and agency on a faction scale would make the early/mid/late game loop much, much more engaging.

[Old Drullo321]

I wouldn't say that endgame lacks player activities. Sure, more is better, there is always room for improvements (current crisis doesn't appeal to me because aside an achievement, there is no reward).

In my opinion, most of the lategame activities aren't very fun to pursue because of the tedious nature of the UI or the lackof improvements in this area in favor of improvements elsewhere. This is not meant as critique, just my assumption that time is limited and it was spent on other areas to improve. Everyone sees early/mid game but less players see the lategame, so thats justifiable.
For most of lategame activities you need to handle alot of fleet, crew and assigning black/whitelists/traderules which is tedious in nature and some UI elements work well in small numbers but doesn't really support large scale operations like assigning pilots/crew to 100 new ships and mass install some ship mods.

However back to the topic and some links to how X3:FL handled diplomacy. I totally disliked the way diplomacy and reputation was handled and while time moves on and we don't live in the year 2000 anymore, i think we should maintain certain parts the X-series grew with, otherwise the upset by the silent majority is bigger then the few people discussing alternatives on the forum. That doesn't say there isn't room for improvements to make it less static. However i consider one of the core elements of the series that you can be friends with almost everyone, even if they are from different sides (e.g. Boron<->Zya). It is a similar concept like beeing able to fly almost every ship.

[jlehtone]

However i consider one of the core elements of the series that you can be friends with almost everyone, even if they are from different sides (e.g. Boron<->Zya). It is a similar concept like beeing able to fly almost every ship.

Indeed. A question is how easy it is. As long as a act gains more with faction than loses with its enemy, it should be possible to reach the max with most. (One could have exceptions, like killing a Xenon not being bad on anyone's books.) Naturally, the less there is difference, the more there is grind. But our "endgame trade fleets" ought to do that for us?


If one would play a Boron -- which we can't do now; we are "player", then becoming friends with Split would not be thinkable. However, or furthermore, that would mean that every gamestart where we are "member of one faction" would clearly differ from other starts. To still be able to play each story would require "connecting missions" in order to get into the "this creature may approach" state that entry to story requires.

[Nerwesta]

Being friend with anyone is not something I'll dismiss, but I'll gladly applaud more choices on how our path is traced.
I think this is why exactly late game feels so bland to me. Once things are settled, plots are done, it's just a matter of grinding your own empire - that nobody still don't recognize by the way.
Mount & Blade for all it's quirks have some huge milestones once the player accomplishes important tasks or has the means to be a notable person in the universe. It's a late-game crisis that just works here ( creating an Empire makes you at risk to wars, conquests and alliances against you )

Back to X4, right now it's the " Player " like some of you said, befriending with basically anyone that is remotely important to have some quests and economical perspectives ( in fact, the plots are already unlocked without it, but that's another story ).
I would imagine being friend with Split as a Boron being a much more difficult task to let's say Argon, the way I see things is how customised our gamestart could be ( it's already is to some extent ).

You can choose to start from your own faction's own relationship table, then as I said the above would be a hard task.
Or perhaps you can choose to be a stray player than happens to be a Boron, then you can min-max everything. I don't see any drawbacks on gameplay perspective, nor lore related issues.

It really depends on how it is implemented. I really dislike those "being freinds with A makes you enemy of B" approaches. I'd rather have no diplomacy at all than that. Manipulating alliances on the other hand is something I'd be interested in.

Diplomacy, a fully fledged system doesn't mean that. Being friend with both A and B that happen to have a bloody war should be definitely possible, but you can side to A or B or profit from all of these as a neutral person.
Now this is something you have to actively push, and not let the system doing this for you as it's now. This can unlock interesting gameplay perspectives too.


On finishing that message, I still think about how the AIs throw Emergency pods to call for help nearby, but never ever the player gets offered this option towards AIs factions, nor own ships. And never ever shall we interact with those pods other than blindly following their voices / paths to find an encounter.
This is something that seriously throw me off, on a type of " their rules, but your rule, not the same, sorry " on a game that simulate otherwise an awful lot of things.

[jlehtone]

Diplomacy, a fully fledged system doesn't mean that. Being friend with both A and B that happen to have a bloody war should be definitely possible, but you can side to A or B or profit from all of these as a neutral person.

Neutral is not a friend though. Teladi are neutral to "all" and trade with everyone. However, they do not sell Carriers (allied-only tech) of any make to others.

I don't know whether Europa Universalis IV or Total War count as games with diplomacy, but IIRC if you are allied to A and B and a war breaks between them, then you are forced to break at least one alliance. So you either pick a side or fall to neutral with both? Logically, if A and B are at war when we meet them, then allying one is picking a side.


I did hear that if the Paranid solve their theological issue and unite, then they can start a war with everyone they see. Shouldn't player have to pick a side there too?

[Nerwesta]

Diplomacy, a fully fledged system doesn't mean that. Being friend with both A and B that happen to have a bloody war should be definitely possible, but you can side to A or B or profit from all of these as a neutral person.

Neutral is not a friend though. Teladi are neutral to "all" and trade with everyone. However, they do not sell Carriers (allied-only tech) of any make to others.

I don't know whether Europa Universalis IV or Total War count as games with diplomacy, but IIRC if you are allied to A and B and a war breaks between them, then you are forced to break at least one alliance. So you either pick a side or fall to neutral with both? Logically, if A and B are at war when we meet them, then allying one is picking a side.


I did hear that if the Paranid solve their theological issue and unite, then they can start a war with everyone they see. Shouldn't player have to pick a side there too?

This is what I said above.
Actual alliances are a different thing from befriending someone and be neutral.

[jlehtone]

Actual alliances are a different thing from befriending someone and be neutral.

Not in current X4. The options are -- roughly -- shoot on sight, neutral, and ally. No "I like you, but will kill you".

[Jeraal]

Actual alliances are a different thing from befriending someone and be neutral.

Not in current X4. The options are -- roughly -- shoot on sight, neutral, and ally. No "I like you, but will kill you".

Don't forget the "Thank you for saving us from the massive Xenon invasion force of doom that would have wiped all life from the unive...OH MY GOD! DID YOU JUST SCRATCH MY PAINT JOB? DESTROY THAT TARGET!!!".

[Sutopia]

Can’t really see value adding diplomacy other than being glorified cheats. Most games handled it poorly and it only adds ways for players to exploit fixed logic npcs.

[Nerwesta]

Actual alliances are a different thing from befriending someone and be neutral.

Not in current X4. The options are -- roughly -- shoot on sight, neutral, and ally. No "I like you, but will kill you".

Yeah but the thread was to think about what could be inproved, I know very well X4 is rather limited here. I think this is my biggest problem on that game for now.

[hebrux]

Update:

I spoke to Bernd Lehahn, CEO and Founder of Egosoft (zav42) over Reddit and this is what he said:
"Thank you. Currently not in the office, but we have seen this thread and follow similar ones frequently. We have a long list of ideas for diplomacy related improvements in the future but I can not promise what exactly will be implemented (yet). Thanks for forwarding it to me!"

The goal was to bring this issue up to the change makers at Egosoft, and I'd say we accomplished this goal.

I just hope that Diplomacy is implemented in a sandbox friendly way like how I described in my OP. Looking forward to the feature in a future release

[alexthespaniard]

Update:

I spoke to Bernd Lehahn, CEO and Founder of Egosoft (zav42) over Reddit and this is what he said:
"Thank you. Currently not in the office, but we have seen this thread and follow similar ones frequently. We have a long list of ideas for diplomacy related improvements in the future but I can not promise what exactly will be implemented (yet). Thanks for forwarding it to me!"

The goal was to bring this issue up to the change makers at Egosoft, and I'd say we accomplished this goal.

I just hope that Diplomacy is implemented in a sandbox friendly way like how I described in my OP. Looking forward to the feature in a future release

There is always room for improvement. Once again Egosoft does the right thing by listening to the community. Rome 2 Total War was a disaster at launch and now it is a great game. At first they didn't want to listen to anyone and it penalized them a lot.

Egosoft doesn't have a team the size of The Creative Assembly (Sega). It is a very different case since they immediately listened to us and have worked tirelessly to improve the game. That is why I think they have been so successful in my point of view, thanks to it the X4 fan is loyal and involved in the game updates. They listen, value and execute, Time Lines was necessary, maybe it is not the most "commercially" attractive DLC but it is the one that will give the necessary immersion and opens a new path of content for future DLC.

I am sure that they will find the correct balance to diplomacy so that it is something fun and that it gives a little sense and depth to the X4 world.