X-Online - 2 be or not 2 be?

[prastagus2]

I voted no. The intricacies of X cannot be duplicated in a MMO. The complexity of it and the massive contents that already exists in single player would compound into a HUGE problem translating to a MMO.

For example, buliding factories. Now if some players suddenly build factories in 1 sector, how would the servers handle that? For players with very fast ships or not manuevable ships, imagine a factory just suddenly pops out in front of your flight path.

If remove some contents for MMO or put restrictions, how would that impact the X experience as we know of? Would X Online become "just ONE of those space MMOs" if some critical single player contents are removed?

As much as I want to share my X experience with my friends, it is easier to make an impressive X4 than an ordinary X Online.

[Myrmedon]

I voted no. The intricacies of X cannot be duplicated in a MMO. The complexity of it and the massive contents that already exists in single player would compound into a HUGE problem translating to a MMO.

For example, buliding factories. Now if some players suddenly build factories in 1 sector, how would the servers handle that? For players with very fast ships or not manuevable ships, imagine a factory just suddenly pops out in front of your flight path.

I would have to disagree - i don't see anything here that can't be overcome in translation to MMO. I think the main stop on such a project is financial not technical. I could be wrong of course...

[Radius]

I can explain to you exactly how x-online would be.

Guy1: Sup guy2? what you up to today?
Guy2: Was just about to start my self contained complex in orebelt and ...
Guy1: Cant ... no roids left.
Guy2: Wha??!! They just added 150 more silicon an hour ago?
Guy1: You snooze you loose - them are all gone.
Guy2: Well, i can always put up a booze/weed complex in herrons ...
Guy1: You nuts? There are 200 complexes in herrons already, you cant give that stuff away. The devs had to up the price again to buy too - got 75 billion for a L fuel factory? Besides, there isnt any e-cells for under 22 per unit. The AI fabs are camped again.
Guy1: Well heck ... wanna go cap some xenon?
Guy2: Cant get into any of the sectors. No e-cells for jumpdrives and someones blocked all the gates with factories again - as soon as you fly through a gate you hit a factory and die.
<< you are scanned >> << you are scanned >> << you are scanned >>

Guy1: (logging back in a few minutes later) what the heck was that?
Guy2: you got scanned - by that group of 50 people that flew up behind us - it overloads the server and boots you. They got the pirate spawns timed and just befor the spawn they boot everyone in the sector.
Guy1: Um ... was just looking at my property page - all my UTs are gone.
Guy2: Oh yea, they implimented a patch, UTs are considered NPC now, since you dont get faction hits from other players st/ut and patrols are the #1 targets now - average you can expect a ST to last is 1 run - we probably wont ever see another UT again.
Guy1: Well what are we supposed to do then?
Guy2: Manual trade runs, anything else is either full or blocked.
Guy1: .... think ill go play X3
Guy2: Yea, me too ... later.

That would pretty much sum up X-Online - your welcome to it, ill stick to X3.

[NightHawk__]

Nothing to add to that , it say's it all

Nice conversation

[fiksal]

funny, but as I said before, this is example of a badly implemented game

and no-one would really play if that's what it'll be

but if one were to put more thought into the game, it's not going to be like that. Obviously it's not going to be a clone of X3, but can be pretty close, depending on what features you can live without

[Central Scrutinizer]

All I can say is that if they do it, I really hope it doesn't mean we won't see any more single player versions like X3, because it is a godsend for those of us that don't have 8 hours a day to spend online playing games.

Of course, I'll probably still be playing X3 in 5 years if there isn't a new version so I shouldn't really worry about it.

[Hagallsson]

I'll admit, I'm new to the X series, but I dont have very high hopes for an MMO version of it, for reasons pointed out above. All it really needs is one player who has absolutely no life to ruin the game for everyone. Yes, you could build a factory, with about 20 other people who found the exact same hole in the economy with you, until someone sends in a massive fleet, takes out everyone else's stuff, and sets up his factories. This isnt even taking into account the pirates that would pop up along with the NPC pirates, Xenon, and Khaak. It would be near impossible to keep your assets intact unless a defence system were implemented (such as sentry guns). None of this is even taking into account the example posted by Radius.

I think the closest you can get to X-Online would be EVE-Online.

[misioooo]

Maybe this will be online version of X games? Shame it is in so early stage of development tho

[ZzZGuy]

to clarify my previous post.

10 billion credits (this is simply a number i made up), just instant cash from which to buy and equip your fleet, i do not propose trading, just add 1 of each needed station form each race from which to get what you need, unlimited stock.

6 empty systems (well, maybe some asteroids) in which to allow for some more tactical fleet movements, 6 is a random number i thought of.

Fight. No option for trading as i can see this being a can of worms, simple fleet vs fleet. This would be VERY interesting as you can change the make up of the fleets, and perhaps the players would decide to only use such and such ships (ex fleets of just m5's). The multiple systems would allow for something beyond one big fleet battle, perhaps whoever reaches the others starting sector first wins, or some other user defined goal.

I do not propose to change any aspects of combat, and seems to me that a few mods would cover the rest. I however do not know what it would take to allow for a internet connection between players and for both to play together.


I am against a MMO as you would basically have to make a new game, and there is already Eve online for that (although there are big differences, but it's close enough). I also played eve online for 4 months and quite after losing interest in the game play and money grinding, the politics however are still interesting, and moved to playing x3 which i enjoy more.

This is my idea of a online X game, and all i would ask for. I do not expect to see x3 to go online, but i do expect (not demand) the next one to have some online feature. (to clarify what i mean by expect: what i hope for in a game, what should be put in and if not detracts from the game [ex: the lack of co-op modes in console games thus making them not worth getting -note that i only have a console system to play games with my friends when we have nothing else to do, and x3 is a very good single player game and should remain 99% single player driven-]

If you like or dislike my idea of how x3 online should[n't] be, then that is your own view, this is mine.

[Radius]

funny, but as I said before, this is example of a badly implemented game

and no-one would really play if that's what it'll be

but if one were to put more thought into the game, it's not going to be like that. Obviously it's not going to be a clone of X3, but can be pretty close, depending on what features you can live without

You dont play many MMO's do you? The lure and draw of X3 is freedom - the freedom to do as you want and play as you want in pretty much any way you like. If you add even a tenth of the freedom and ability to an online version of X that you can have in the singleplayer version its nothing but a recipie for disaster. For every freedom -you- have, you have to remember that EVERY person that logs into that server must be given the exact same freedoms.

Think of some of the simpler things in the game that would have to be removed to make it 'other player' freindly.

1) the ability to place a factory 'where-ever' you wanted. You and i both know if that was in an online version there would be some punk slapping down the cheapest factories he could a few hundred feet from the docking clamp on any factory he could find. You undock, you die, you try to dock, you die. If his factory is attackable - YOUR - factory is attackable too. You would have a factory that would last 5 minutes - ever.

2) the ability to place an unlimited ammount of factories. Some sectors would just get plain overloaded. You might get limited to a max 5-10 factories per shard. The usual MMO has 1000 or more people per shard, that would mean 5000 to 10000 player run factories, even that would be pushing things. Things like a self supporting complex would simply be impossible.

3) The ability to have Unlimited ships. Think of what Xenon sector 101 would look like with just 4-5 people and their 'fleets' of 10 ships plus AI ships, plus roids - ect. Or what the frame rate would drop to when 5-6 player run M1s opened up with PPCs against 4-5 Xenon Ks ... then multiply that by 20 since you would never have just 5 people in that sector. Think about ore belt with a minimum of 50 to 100 supply ships at ALL times trying to pick up e-cells for factories.

4) The ability to 'wait'. You have 'just' enough for a silicon mine and that 60 silicon yeild roid is open - slap down a mine now and you have zip left, but if you wait an hour - or even five minutes that roid will be grabbed by someone else.

5) Scripts removed, Mods removed - you cant run XTM or an automated 'equipt the ships you buy script' - why? its cheating - all thats gone.

6) playing 'your' game 'your' way. You want that huge complex in ore belt? too bad. see above reasons for why.

7) Carriers? Gone. Launch 60 ships at once? you gotta be nuts. With the possibilty for 100 people in the same sector to do that ALL AT THE SAME TIME within a few feet of each other - 6000 m3 in the space of a few K? you wouldnt be able to move the frame rate would drop so low. It would be like looking at screen shots on a web page.

Limit it to 5-10 people (only) per server? Never happen. To pay for the server you would need enough people to pay for it assigned to it, prolly about 1000 or so per shard. Being able to own more then a few factories and being able to have more then 1 ship undocked at the same time (like eve online) goes out the window.

The fact is an MMO version of X would be nothing like X. Its just that plain and simple. Most of the things that make the X games 'X' would have to be removed in order for it to even be playable online. No st/ut or any 'unpiloted' ships. It would simply be too much strain on the servers. No tractor beams, no alot of things - what you would end up with is pretty much eve online.

[mattstint]

IMHO, that sounds like crap

[NightHawk__]

7) Carriers? Gone. Launch 60 ships at once? you gotta be nuts. With the possibilty for 100 people in the same sector to do that ALL AT THE SAME TIME within a few feet of each other - 6000 m3 in the space of a few K? you wouldnt be able to move the frame rate would drop so low. It would be like looking at screen shots on a web page.

New objective in mind . Buy 100 Carriers and 6000 M3's and see how hard it is on a computer ....


Sorry , have to go , need some planning to do .....

[Cycrow]

....

on top of all that, what about when you log out, whats going to happen with all your stations ?

either they remain, so when you login again u've lost all your factories

or you either make then invicible, or temporarly remove them when you log out.
but this way would totatly wreck the freedom of the game, and if you stations are under attack, you simple log out before they get destroyed so they become invicible

which ever method you choose is jsut going to cause headaches for the players, only real way would be to do away with stations alltogether, or have them in your own private sector, either way, its a big loss of gameplay

[fiksal]

You dont play many MMO's do you? The lure and draw of X3 is freedom - the freedom to do as you want and play as you want in pretty much any way you like.

You got me - I do not.
Just to clarify too, I am not 100% supporting MMO version either, since I dont have much time on my hands.

Yep, freedom is a pickle, and that's something will probably be cut... or adjusted. But it might be possible to keep some of them somewhat restricted or more like illusions of freedom.

I have no doubt that MMO version will not be "do whatever you want" game.

I got no solutions, just random thoughts:

1) the ability to place a factory 'where-ever' you wanted.

yep, have to restrict that. Probably by both proximity, location, perhaps even number stations per sector... Thus the need for MUCH larger number of sectors / universe.

2) the ability to place an unlimited ammount of factories. Some sectors would just get plain overloaded.

The one way to maybe still allow the unlimited number is to stop displaying new factories at some point... meaning that factories will look nothing like ones in X3.
Otherwise models would have to be simplified, a lot.

The fewer variables are involved, the less the station will take place in bytes...

3) The ability to have Unlimited ships.

Not sure what to do with that one, in order to preserve that freedom.

4) The ability to 'wait'. You have 'just' enough for a silicon mine and that 60 silicon yeild roid is open - slap down a mine now and you have zip left, but if you wait an hour - or even five minutes that roid will be grabbed by someone else.

Share the resources perhaps?

5) Scripts removed, Mods removed - you cant run XTM or an automated 'equipt the ships you buy script' - why? its cheating - all thats gone.

That's right, unless users can start their own (much smaller) server for a local game... or so.

6) playing 'your' game 'your' way. You want that huge complex in ore belt? too bad. see above reasons for why.

Without instancing (is that's what it's called?) it's impossible to play "your" way. It's not going to be a sandbox, but more like a playground.

[Carlo the Curious]

6) playing 'your' game 'your' way. You want that huge complex in ore belt? too bad. see above reasons for why.

Without instancing (is that's what it's called?) it's impossible to play "your" way. It's not going to be a sandbox, but more like a playground.

Instancing did actually occur to me while I was reading the guy post. It could resolve issues with Xenon hunting, etc.

Player assets on the other hand - if they're all in instanced sectors, you're not really playing X3 MMO, just X3 with some online fight bits tacked on.

[Maulkye]

Have there been any technical posts on the challenges of making X3 a LAN game?

I can only think of one major challenge here: real time maintenance of persistent object data, and that can be handled. Here are just two simple examples of how to get started:

1. Only the sectors (or physical ranges) with players in them need real time updates, everyone else can get by with 500+ millisecond updates.

2. Sectors don't need 50 Artificial Life ships in them at all if no one is there; only sectors near players do. Artificial Life ships can be added randomly when a player gets close to a sector and their effects proceduralized over time to simulate an economy.

I know what everyone is going to say, so with reservation, I must state the following: I *am* in the IT industry and have 12 years of experience in developing logistics, communication, and database software in various forms (online, distributed, etc...). And, with respect, there is no way that this project should cost 2-5 million pounds. If I got that estimate, I'd find another team immediately.

I've seen independent shops of three guys write entire MMORPG game servers emulating popular, pay sites. Check out RunUO which allows people to run Ultima Online shards on their own boxes (it is legal and allowed by Electronic Arts before anyone gets tweaked). I've read the C# code that goes with it and the network synchronization code is tight and efficient and handles enormous amounts of persistent data where hundreds or even thousands of people play.

So, in essence, sorry folks, but this fan isn't buying it.

[Radius]

6) playing 'your' game 'your' way. You want that huge complex in ore belt? too bad. see above reasons for why.

Without instancing (is that's what it's called?) it's impossible to play "your" way. It's not going to be a sandbox, but more like a playground.

Instancing did actually occur to me while I was reading the guy post. It could resolve issues with Xenon hunting, etc.

Player assets on the other hand - if they're all in instanced sectors, you're not really playing X3 MMO, just X3 with some online fight bits tacked on.

Even with instancing there would still have to be limitations. Although instances would allow 'more' people to experience limited resources, the online servers would still have to calculate those limited resources. Instancing at times can actually create a larger server load (it not only have to keep track of 1 sector, but multiple versions of the same sector that have multiple variations). So by allowing more people to experience less things, there has to be less things in the total game.

No matter -how- you slice it, you have to cut parts out in order for the 1 online server to be able to handle the load. Its just a simple fact that an online game could never be as complicated or as indepth as a single player game can be. By the time someone actually figures out how to get an online game to be as indepth as X is now, the new version of the singleplayer games would make those games appear simplistic.

I personal think the future of singleplayer games is alot brighter then for MMOs, specifically more as a programmers ability to create a 'realistic' AI gets closer to being actuality. With games like 'spore' being produced that can actually evolve a more effective fighter as it produces more units, and adding in an actual 'intelligence' to the driving force, its just a matter of time befor a game that truely breaks boundries between physical reality and computer reality is able to be produced. Now that would be an exciting and in depth game, and something an MMO could never reproduce.

[fiksal]

I wonder what the people who voted for X-online want to have in this game?
Because that will make a difference on how things will/might be done.

As for me, my kind of an online space game probably will never be made
but I voted "yes" anyway

[prastagus2]

I wonder, if a sector is populated by 200+ PC factories, how will they be presented should any player goes into the sector? Same question with PC and NPC fleets and a combination of both? Even if servers can handle showing them, what about players' computers?

[fiksal]

do you mean will the player be able to tell which is PC owned ship/station and which one is not?