(Suggestion) Hiring people to build stations for us

[Raptor34]

And what's the issue?

It removes a huge chunk of game progression. Hunt for the blueprints is part of central game loop past the first station, and half the game revolves around blueprint hunting.

So there has to be a tradeoff. Like complete lack of control over resulting station layout. Or maybe you'll need sky high reputation requirements.

---

Basically:

* "Player should be able to order stations". Reasonable. Missions exist, why not let player issue them.
* "With full control over layout" --> definitely a very hard no.
* "Without any control" --> that could be a lot of fun.

A reasonable idea is to make this act as missions you get except you issue them to the NPC. You pay 150% of the station, specifications are vague, and subcontractor can install random stuff into it to meet the max payment target.

This is so dumb. Are you then suggesting that the player shouldn't be allowed to just emp for blueprints as well? You save a lot of money there too. And personally for a spaceship game I don't consider crawling around like a bug looking for dataleaks which you can manually create to be what I play the game for. Actually I'll like to know how many people actually like that part of the game and want more of it. I don't see people praising the spacesuit segments in Timelines after all, and it's basically that.
And I actually suggest the exact opposite. BPs should actually be harder to get. I just don't really want to insist on it because of how players react to nerfs. But the factions really shouldn't be so easily handing out the know how of how to build their stuff.
Besides, I again do not see people suggesting the same with ships. Should we also just order a ship like missions? And the shipyards just give us whatever they can stuff into it instead of what we want? That would be interesting I admit. But I seriously doubt people actually want that.

Ideally. I think that rather than just looking at material costs, factions building stuff for you should actually have some sort of surcharge, though I'm not sure if that's how it actually works now. Like imagine if everything you order from a faction has a 50% labor cost. That would incentivize you working towards getting the BPs so you can cut out the middleman. I just don't think this would work in current X4 which is why I don't mention it. See above about how the playerbase reacts to nerfs.

And what's the issue? You can buy ships. I don't see people complaining that it "jump starts" your economy. Do we also need to only capture ships until we can buy BPs and only then can we order ships at shipyards too?

Actually, capturing ships is a faster way to jump start your economy. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve seen people say boarding is too easy and risk-free, even though Egosoft has already increased its difficulty several times.

And I also see a lot of people just suggest that and give ideas even further of how to exploit the system. Like "hiring" a CV to some quiet area before boarding.
I don't disagree that boarding is too easy, but I disagree not because it makes money comes in easily, I disagree because it's kinda dumb that the factions are basically just ignoring you stealing their ships and selling back to them. Or how SCA destroyers are for the most part so lightly armed and without any sort of fighter cover... Worse was that exploit which I'm not sure whether it's fixed where you can literally sell with one crew and then board and resell it. It's just so illogical, but I've made my thoughts known on how the shipyards allows you to sell ships you don't deliver. Repeatedly and without consequence.

Otherwise I don't really care if the early game is made any easier. As long as it's logical. Like why not just let players take out a loan for instance.

[vvvvvvvv]

Are you then suggesting that the player shouldn't be

No, and kindly talk to people without using strawmen in the process.

The proposal with player having no control is fun.
The proposal where player sidesteps blueprints isn't fun.
If that also makes blueprints harder to acquire then it is even worse.

That's the end of the story.

[flywlyx]

Otherwise I don't really care if the early game is made any easier. As long as it's logical. Like why not just let players take out a loan for instance.

In X4, stations basically act as credit printers. There’s no real logical reason why factions would help individuals build stations just so they can flood the market with products. That’s why I argue that only redundant stations—ones slated for demolition—should be available for players to purchase, since that’s the only situation where a faction might realistically agree to it.

[Raptor34]

Are you then suggesting that the player shouldn't be

No, and kindly talk to people without using strawmen in the process.

The proposal with player having no control is fun.
The proposal where player sidesteps blueprints isn't fun.
If that also makes blueprints harder to acquire then it is even worse.

That's the end of the story.

Right. And I disagree that the game is about collecting blueprints. Those are just a means to an end.
I don't think I've actually seen anyone even brag about their BP collection.

Otherwise I don't really care if the early game is made any easier. As long as it's logical. Like why not just let players take out a loan for instance.

In X4, stations basically act as credit printers. There’s no real logical reason why factions would help individuals build stations just so they can flood the market with products. That’s why I argue that only redundant stations—ones slated for demolition—should be available for players to purchase, since that’s the only situation where a faction might realistically agree to it.

... Logic. There is also no real logical reason the factions would allow individuals to know how to build stations just so they lose control over the individual. If you're talking about realism, then the factions helping individuals build stations makes infinitely more sense than letting the individual build stations themselves and become independent.

[flywlyx]

... Logic. There is also no real logical reason the factions would allow individuals to know how to build stations just so they lose control over the individual. If you're talking about realism, then the factions helping individuals build stations makes infinitely more sense than letting the individual build stations themselves and become independent.

If factions don’t sell it, individuals will just steal it anyway. That’s why they slap a high price tag on the blueprint and refuse to assist with construction without it. What really doesn’t make sense is the low cost of renting a construction ship—it should be extremely high and based on time usage. I suppose that’s a compromise for the boarding system, since if the rental cost were too high, I’d just capture a construction ship instead.

[Raptor34]

... Logic. There is also no real logical reason the factions would allow individuals to know how to build stations just so they lose control over the individual. If you're talking about realism, then the factions helping individuals build stations makes infinitely more sense than letting the individual build stations themselves and become independent.

If factions don’t sell it, individuals will just steal it anyway. That’s why they slap a high price tag on the blueprint and refuse to assist with construction without it. What really doesn’t make sense is the low cost of renting a construction ship—it should be extremely high and based on time usage. I suppose that’s a compromise for the boarding system, since if the rental cost were too high, I’d just capture a construction ship instead.

Eh, they'll just deal with theft the same way as in the real world. But with bigger guns. Considering you need a HQ and Boso to steal BPs, we can assume theft isn't an issue due to DRM or something. So if they see a station built by someone they have no records of, they'll blow it up.

This is beyond the scope of the suggestion and newly thought of, but at lower, i.e. 10-20 rep levels, they, just like IRL, should instead of selling you a BP, they license it to you instead. You can negotiate, besides the upfront fee, you either pay a recurring cost, or a per item cost. Only at level 30 when you've proven yourself would they sell it to you no strings attached.
Which semi-related, if the difficulty goes up, then should as well add a BP vault so you can bask in the glow of all you fully acquired. It'll have those spinny wireframe modules.

But all these frankly are beyond X4 imo.
Simple, let us buy stations like we buy ships.

[flywlyx]

Eh, they'll just deal with theft the same way as in the real world. But with bigger guns. Considering you need a HQ and Boso to steal BPs, we can assume theft isn't an issue due to DRM or something. So if they see a station built by someone they have no records of, they'll blow it up.

This is beyond the scope of the suggestion and newly thought of, but at lower, i.e. 10-20 rep levels, they, just like IRL, should instead of selling you a BP, they license it to you instead. You can negotiate, besides the upfront fee, you either pay a recurring cost, or a per item cost. Only at level 30 when you've proven yourself would they sell it to you no strings attached.
Which semi-related, if the difficulty goes up, then should as well add a BP vault so you can bask in the glow of all you fully acquired. It'll have those spinny wireframe modules.

But all these frankly are beyond X4 imo.
Simple, let us buy stations like we buy ships.

There’s infinite space out there, so players can build stations wherever they like—even in enemy territory, which could end up boosting their enemies’ economy. That’s why illegal and legal wares exist.

Station building is basically the final step toward infinite credits, and like boarding, it’s extremely difficult to balance. With the current system, it’s either too easy to exploit or so difficult that it becomes impractical. If there were more economic tools to influence the process, it could actually be a fun mechanic.

[Raptor34]

Eh, they'll just deal with theft the same way as in the real world. But with bigger guns. Considering you need a HQ and Boso to steal BPs, we can assume theft isn't an issue due to DRM or something. So if they see a station built by someone they have no records of, they'll blow it up.

This is beyond the scope of the suggestion and newly thought of, but at lower, i.e. 10-20 rep levels, they, just like IRL, should instead of selling you a BP, they license it to you instead. You can negotiate, besides the upfront fee, you either pay a recurring cost, or a per item cost. Only at level 30 when you've proven yourself would they sell it to you no strings attached.
Which semi-related, if the difficulty goes up, then should as well add a BP vault so you can bask in the glow of all you fully acquired. It'll have those spinny wireframe modules.

But all these frankly are beyond X4 imo.
Simple, let us buy stations like we buy ships.

There’s infinite space out there, so players can build stations wherever they like—even in enemy territory, which could end up boosting their enemies’ economy. That’s why illegal and legal wares exist.

Station building is basically the final step toward infinite credits, and like boarding, it’s extremely difficult to balance. With the current system, it’s either too easy to exploit or so difficult that it becomes impractical. If there were more economic tools to influence the process, it could actually be a fun mechanic.

Which is why I'm not recommending all that now. Otherwise I think IP laws would be the one thing that each faction would agree with. It really deserves a whole thread of it's own, which I'm frankly too lazy to type out but TLDR is that each faction would respect each other's BP ownership, tit for tat basically, in return for Argon enforcing Split IP laws, they'll do the same in return. Which means you need to build in pirate or otherwise unowned space, which in my suggestion would be way more dangerous than it currently is. You leave civilized space, you also leave it's protections. So in return for not paying licensing fees, you either have your own defense force, or you pay pirate protection money instead. Choose your poison.
End game is whatever of course, like eventually once you reach some threshold you also become your own faction and for you, ideally Boso, i.e. Egosoft gives you some player specific BPs you can now then license out to the other factions for income.
Of course you can still own BPs of course, but under my suggestion that would be the capstone, probably locked behind a quest for each faction to fully earn their trust beyond trading 1 ecells between two stations. Then since you own them, you can also license them out too. So endgame you can say license out the TER Pulse lasers to other factions for an easy firepower boost. Or blast mortars for everyone. Or even Asgards for everyone if that's how you want to roll.

But again, that's for X5. For X4, I'm again just recommending, stations like ships.

[jlehtone]

... Logic. There is also no real logical reason the factions would allow individuals to know how to build stations just so they lose control over the individual. If you're talking about realism, then the factions helping individuals build stations makes infinitely more sense than letting the individual build stations themselves and become independent.

If factions don’t sell it, individuals will just steal it anyway. That’s why they slap a high price tag on the blueprint and refuse to assist with construction without it. What really doesn’t make sense is the low cost of renting a construction ship—it should be extremely high and based on time usage. I suppose that’s a compromise for the boarding system, since if the rental cost were too high, I’d just capture a construction ship instead.

Why not add licensing to ice the cake? In addition to paying for blueprint, charge a "license fee" for each unit produced.
Or prepaid licenses: "Can I get a license to manufacture 10 Cahoona Bakeries and 30 Elites?"
"Sure, for price X, paid up front. Should you lose our grace, this license (to produce) will be immediately revoked."

[Raptor34]

... Logic. There is also no real logical reason the factions would allow individuals to know how to build stations just so they lose control over the individual. If you're talking about realism, then the factions helping individuals build stations makes infinitely more sense than letting the individual build stations themselves and become independent.

If factions don’t sell it, individuals will just steal it anyway. That’s why they slap a high price tag on the blueprint and refuse to assist with construction without it. What really doesn’t make sense is the low cost of renting a construction ship—it should be extremely high and based on time usage. I suppose that’s a compromise for the boarding system, since if the rental cost were too high, I’d just capture a construction ship instead.

Why not add licensing to ice the cake? In addition to paying for blueprint, charge a "license fee" for each unit produced.
Or prepaid licenses: "Can I get a license to manufacture 10 Cahoona Bakeries and 30 Elites?"
"Sure, for price X, paid up front. Should you lose our grace, this license (to produce) will be immediately revoked."

Funny. That was my thought too. Upfront licensing fees and then you can choose either recurring or per unit payment. And also the same since it's a license, if you lose rep, you lose the license too. This would of course depend on having a one click button or global order to turn off your factories so you aren't doing something illegal and start racking up further rep drops.
Recurring for when you know you are going to build a shitton of them, so it should be cheaper overall. Per unit for when you only plan to build a small number of them.
Originally I was thinking for wares that you'll lets say for example you pay 10 credits per 1k hull parts. That immediately ran into the issue that if you ask them to build for you instead, it seems you bypass the whole thing. Then I realized that it's just way simpler to go with the whole factory module instead and the hull parts themselves aren't counted. Well, not insurmountable either way, but baby steps. It's all X5 ideas anyway, and we're so far off I don't want to spend too much effort on thinking it out atm, which is also why I didn't make a separate thread.

[flywlyx]

But again, that's for X5. For X4, I'm again just recommending, stations like ships.

Well, I suppose you simply want it, and there’s nothing wrong with that. But I’d recommend backing it up with solid math on how to balance it, so Egosoft might be convinced it’s a good idea.
From my perspective, though, achieving that is nearly impossible with the tools currently available in X4.

Why not add licensing to ice the cake? In addition to paying for blueprint, charge a "license fee" for each unit produced.
Or prepaid licenses: "Can I get a license to manufacture 10 Cahoona Bakeries and 30 Elites?"
"Sure, for price X, paid up front. Should you lose our grace, this license (to produce) will be immediately revoked."

This is essentially the same as purchasing ships from NPC factions, except the player also loses the opportunity to sell materials back to them.
So overall, compared to the current system, this method results in players spending more credits.

[jlehtone]

So overall, compared to the current system, this method results in players spending more credits.

Exactly, when you have blueprints and all materials, you can build modules and ships and a license fee would be nothing more than a credit expenditure that cuts your profit margin.
Unless ...

This would of course depend on having a one click button or global order to turn off your factories so you aren't doing something illegal and start racking up further rep drops.

you breach contract and start to produce unlicensed copies (just like you now can skip the "pay for plot" button). Granted, the possible consequences do not look terribly scary. The Patent Office sends an auditor?


That aside. You have a station. You got Erlking. You have a need for a XL Maintenance Bay. You won't need many of those.
The current option is to pay for blueprint and build a module.

What if you could hire a NPC to build the Bay to your station, with bit cheaper than the blueprint? With a bit lower reputation than the blueprint requires.

[flywlyx]

Exactly, when you have blueprints and all materials, you can build modules and ships and a license fee would be nothing more than a credit expenditure that cuts your profit margin.
Unless ...

The situation with stations is different. Since players currently can’t purchase stations, there’s no real balance regarding their cost. For instance, if a faction is short on weapon components, how should the price be set for a player to build a weapon factory that could generate credits for the next 100 hours? Should it be 1/10 of the blueprint price? 1/5? There’s simply no ideal number.
A mortgage or loan system would make sense, but it isn’t available in the current game.

[Raptor34]

Exactly, when you have blueprints and all materials, you can build modules and ships and a license fee would be nothing more than a credit expenditure that cuts your profit margin.
Unless ...

The situation with stations is different. Since players currently can’t purchase stations, there’s no real balance regarding their cost. For instance, if a faction is short on weapon components, how should the price be set for a player to build a weapon factory that could generate credits for the next 100 hours? Should it be 1/10 of the blueprint price? 1/5? There’s simply no ideal number.
A mortgage or loan system would make sense, but it isn’t available in the current game.

Do you ask the same about miners too? There is no difference. Just do it at cost like normal gear.
Though frankly I would like a 50% markup for both. But treating them the same is simple.
Like you're thinking of all these things, yet at the same time you can also apply that to every miner and trader you buy. I don't see you questioning the balance of buying a miner from a wharf when the faction is short of raw materials. Or of buying a trader that can move goods in short supply when it's even more flexible and you can switch what goods it moves so even if the previous shortage is completed, you can still reassign it to move something else. Maybe we should also add BP prices to every ship we build? That's your "balance".

[vvvvvvvv]

What if you could hire a NPC to build the Bay to your station, with bit cheaper than the blueprint? With a bit lower reputation than the blueprint requires.

You likely shouldn't be allowed to do that regardless of rep, because that is military level strategic asset. There's a reason why you can't just EMP those. XL bay lays claim on the sector. So being subcontracted to build one is like being subcontracted to develop a nuke for a friendly neighboring nation. No matter how nice the nation is the answer would be no. Admin centers likewise could be off-limits.

[flywlyx]

Do you ask the same about miners too? There is no difference. Just do it at cost like normal gear.
Though frankly I would like a 50% markup for both. But treating them the same is simple.
Like you're thinking of all these things, yet at the same time you can also apply that to every miner and trader you buy. I don't see you questioning the balance of buying a miner from a wharf when the faction is short of raw materials. Or of buying a trader that can move goods in short supply when it's even more flexible and you can switch what goods it moves so even if the previous shortage is completed, you can still reassign it to move something else. Maybe we should also add BP prices to every ship we build? That's your "balance".

Both mining and trading are fairly inefficient in the early game because of the limited availability of skilled pilots, whereas running a factory is a completely different story. For example, an EC module can usually bring in around 100k without any other requirements, which is why—even though its blueprint costs 1.6M—I always prioritize purchasing it. It’s not only the safest investment but also one of the fastest ways to build reputation. Simply put, nothing matches the efficiency of building stations.

As I mentioned earlier, you can still run the numbers, and I’d be quite interested in seeing your results.

We don't need to add bp cost to ship purchase, the ships players buy are much more expensive than just their raw material costs—the blueprint cost is already factored into the price.

[jlehtone]

What if you could hire a NPC to build the Bay to your station, with bit cheaper than the blueprint? With a bit lower reputation than the blueprint requires.

You likely shouldn't be allowed to do that regardless of rep, because that is military level strategic asset. There's a reason why you can't just EMP those. XL bay lays claim on the sector. So being subcontracted to build one is like being subcontracted to develop a nuke for a friendly neighboring nation. No matter how nice the nation is the answer would be no. Admin centers likewise could be off-limits.

XL and L bays. Oh my, both Fab and Maint do claim, not just the Fabs. One could ask whether getting and keeping blueprints for them is even now rather easy.

[vvvvvvvv]

XL and L bays. Oh my, both Fab and Maint do claim, not just the Fabs. One could ask whether getting and keeping blueprints for them is even now rather easy.

L and XL fab blueprints are in ballpark of 300 mill each. Maintenance I think is about half of that.

L/XL bays are end-end game stuff technically. Because in x4 the moment you build your first S/M fab, you've won and might as well start over. Past that point you'll only snowball and get stronger.

Both fabs and maintenance slowly remove player dependency on other factions. As such player should not acquire them easily. So a subcontractor building shipyard for you just skips the whole game to the moment where credits roll.

[Raptor34]

So it sounds like putting all the chaff aside, the core of the arguments is that basically money comes too easily if you can buy stations.

Edit: Btw, what are the costs of low tier BPs anyway? From memory most of the smaller BPs are basically a few hundred thousands each. Not exactly what I call high cost.

[vvvvvvvv]

So it sounds like putting all the chaff aside, the core of the arguments is that basically money comes too easily if you can buy stations.

Money does not come easily. Without piracy loophole and various exploits, any decent amount of cash takes time to earn, and all the way up to that first S/M wharf, there's a constant pressure where you need more cash. Usually for blueprints. Even if you're stealing all of them, that takes significant time investment. Worth mentioning that Missions are also a lifeline thrown to a player to help with cash earning. Without them, things become quite hard.

You can experience it in a rags to riches playthrough. Custom start, weak ship, 0 credit sbalance, no items.

The pressure disappears, when you build S/M wharf. Past that point you'll quickly move to the situation where money no longer matters. Then it'll be effectively post game. Paranid quests and such are also effectively post-game.

The system is quite good, because cost of acquiring your own wharf is significant and you can't skip it. You have to buy it. So earning enough for S/M, then L, then XL, then buying all the expensive blueprints provides chain of goals.

However, once you HAVE blueprints, wharves are not that expensive to build. It is 20 million or so. Material cost. So if your contractor offers wharves, then your player will skip entire game and entire progression. It is "I win" button. Which is not fun.