I'd like a way to speed up station construction without mods

[Ashmodai]

I'm all for it but it should come at a hefty price increase. At least like 1.5x more expensive for 20% increased build speed.
Either through more ressources or just a work tax or sth like that.

Why would it need to be more expensive? You'd either need to pay the hire fee for another NPC builder or employ one of your own (for the proposal that you could use more than one builder at the same time). There's no reason why it ought to be arbitrarily more expensive and I can't see any sense in allowing players a way to build stations faster than now and yet be penalized for it.

Because for it to be a good game mechanic it should be a meaningful choice.
When an option turns out to be the single realistic option it's not actually an option. And a second builder is so dirt cheap - the first one is actually already WAY too cheap - that it is such an option. There is no reason not to do it. The 50k certainly are no deterrent.

You really just want a fast building cheat without the modified and try to weasel around it with a solution that actually isn't one.
That's not a good gameplay addition.

[vvvvvvvv]

Because for it to be a good game mechanic it should be a meaningful choice.

Well, builder ship need to be bought or built. Seems the cost is already included.

[RainerPrem]

Because for it to be a good game mechanic it should be a meaningful choice.

Well, builder ship need to be bought or built. Seems the cost is already included.

I don't buy nor build those ships. You can easily board them instead. It's the way I train my marines on the Syn. The only cost is a) the bombs to disable their turrets, and b) to repair and outfit them afterward. Both are normally covered if you sell all the satellites and mines they carry.

[jlehtone]

Because for it to be a good game mechanic it should be a meaningful choice.

Well, builder ship need to be bought or built. Seems the cost is already included.

Hired, boarded, bought, or built. The issue with hired is that one would have to check whether it has 30 Build Drones or not. Getting second builder is additional cost when building the first station, but then for the next plot you do already have two builders. Some count that as "free".

We can now "build faster", if we build into separate plots (simultaneously). That too has "overhead cost" of additional docks, piers, and logistics -- assuming that your "one megastation" would not need as many piers and ships.


The overall design question is whether to support casual play, where you in one evening can start playthrough, build, and take screenshot of final megastructure, or not.

[vvvvvvvv]

I don't buy nor build those ships. You can easily

And? That's still a price that has already been paid. Also, rather than increasing speed it is possible for a single builder to work on a single module and allow multiple builders to work in parallel. This won't be an infinite boost, and there will be a natural cap for speed.

The overall design question is whether to support casual play, where

The answer is yes, because it is a sandbox.

How should I put it. It would be best not to waste player's time staring at a screen waiting something to happen. Construction is the biggest time waster in X4. Absolutely no payoff for the wait. It was inherited from rebirth almost unchanged.

[jlehtone]

How should I put it. It would be best not to waste player's time staring at a screen waiting something to happen.

That most should be able to agree on. To some extent.

In X3R the build operation did have a cutscene, where camera did pan around the builder and the station. Just some seconds, but more than 0. Unskippable. A Complex with 1000 station did require watching 2000 cutscenes. In sector. The latter half had very long seconds. You were forced to watch and wait.

In X4 you don't have to wait for that, you can do (other) things while the station assembles. You don't even have to see your stations, ever (if you don't have to visit the sectors for other reasons). I'd argue that X4 does not force you to stare at the screen like the X3R did.

The X4 is not "complete" sandbox, as we cannot start with unlimited credits (even with the Budgeted Start). (IIRC, Railroad Tycoon had sandbox mode where you could build unlimited.) We are still forced to do something before we reach the infinite credits stage. Some state that they restart to relive that part and that the "endgame" past that point is boring.

[Feloidea]

You really just want a fast building cheat without the modified and try to weasel around it with a solution that actually isn't one.

T̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶e̶x̶c̶e̶e̶d̶i̶n̶g̶l̶y̶ ̶r̶i̶c̶h̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶a̶ ̶g̶u̶y̶ ̶w̶h̶o̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶s̶a̶i̶d̶ ̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶o̶e̶s̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶h̶i̶r̶e̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶b̶u̶y̶ ̶b̶u̶i̶l̶d̶e̶r̶ ̶s̶h̶i̶p̶s̶ ̶b̶e̶c̶a̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶b̶o̶a̶r̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶m̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶m̶a̶k̶e̶ ̶b̶a̶c̶k̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶e̶x̶p̶e̶n̶s̶e̶s̶ ̶b̶y̶ ̶s̶e̶l̶l̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶n̶o̶n̶-̶e̶s̶s̶e̶n̶t̶i̶a̶l̶s̶ ̶a̶f̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶e̶e̶d̶ ̶h̶a̶s̶ ̶b̶e̶e̶n̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶e̶.̶ ̶I̶ ̶c̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶s̶a̶y̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶n̶t̶ ̶a̶ ̶c̶h̶e̶a̶t̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶f̶r̶e̶e̶ ̶b̶u̶i̶l̶d̶e̶r̶ ̶s̶h̶i̶p̶s̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶m̶o̶d̶i̶f̶i̶e̶d̶ ̶.̶.̶.̶

But you do you. Either way it seems evident you aren't particularly interested in a real discussion if the bit in the quote is how you respond to things. Enjoy the game as you want but don't go around trying to dictate what's good gameplay for others. This is as much energy as I'll waste on you, have a good day.

[Ashmodai]

You really just want a fast building cheat without the modified and try to weasel around it with a solution that actually isn't one.

This is exceedingly rich coming from a guy who just said he doesn't hire or buy builder ships because you can just board them and make back all expenses by selling non-essentials after the deed has been done.

Where did I say that?

And by the way: I basically just quoted the title of the thread "I'd like a way to speed up station construction without mods"
"I want it to be faster but I don't want it to be a meaningful gameplay addition" aka "I want a cheat for me"

[Ashmodai]

It would be best not to waste player's time staring at a screen waiting something to happen.

Who forces you to stare at the screen while something is being build? Just keep on doing other stuff?!

[Feloidea]

You really just want a fast building cheat without the modified and try to weasel around it with a solution that actually isn't one.

This is exceedingly rich coming from a guy who just said he doesn't hire or buy builder ships because you can just board them and make back all expenses by selling non-essentials after the deed has been done.

Where did I say that?

And by the way: I basically just quoted the title of the thread "I'd like a way to speed up station construction without mods"
"I want it to be faster but I don't want it to be a meaningful gameplay addition" aka "I want a cheat for me"

You know, I actually went back to check and I did indeed mistake that post as one of yours. That was my bad, apologies.

That said, still doesn't change the rest about not facilitating proper discussions if you just throw around accusations of people just wanting to cheat. Especially when apparently the reason for said judgemental blanket statement was, and how ironic this is after I accidentally misattributed another's post for yours, based on another person's choice of topic title.

So yeah, sorry for mistaking that other post as one of yours but you still need to learn how to hold a proper discussion if you wish to partake in it. Disagreeing with a suggestion or feature request is one thing, but equating a potential and completely optional (no one would hold a gun to your head and force you to speed up your stuff if you don't want it!) QoL change with "y'all just want to cheat" isn't how you do it. It's a disingenious ad hominem that adds nothing to the discussion.

[vvvvvvvv]

Who forces you to stare at the screen while something is being build? Just keep on doing other stuff?!

People ask for faster building because "just do something else while it is building" does not work. There isn't enough stuff to do in the game to pad megastation building. It takes long time even with SETA running.

Megastation looks like this:

viewtopic.php?p=5273287

This is a medium-sized one, of only about 1000 modules.

Or here's another one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3xNz_2SuOM

By the time you'll be building something like this, your game world will be in order, and you won't have anything to do other than building the mega station.

Notice also that this is a minimalist purely functional design. In construction community there are much cooler works. The game allows you to build this stuff, then punishes you when you start building. There are also several quests focused on building (Paranid temple building), which also stall gameplay. The process is slow, because it is inherited from Rebirth, where Station was grand achievement of your career. End end game stuff. That's not the case in x4, where you start with a cell fab.

[GCU Grey Area]

People ask for faster building because "just do something else while it is building" does not work. There isn't enough stuff to do in the game to pad megastation building. It takes long time even with SETA running.

If the game's essentially over because you've run out of things to do, why continue playing it if all that constitutes is looking at a station being built?

I restart when that happens. Generally take me around 20-30 in-game days to get to that point, which is more than enough time to build a 2-3k module station (which is the max my machine can feasibly cope with).

If you're carrying on a finished game, in which there's literally nothing else left to do just for the sake of completing a station, why not finish it in the station design simulator where it can be built instantly?

[Ashmodai]

Who forces you to stare at the screen while something is being build? Just keep on doing other stuff?!

People ask for faster building because "just do something else while it is building" does not work. There isn't enough stuff to do in the game to pad megastation building. It takes long time even with SETA running.

By the time you'll be building something like this, your game world will be in order, and you won't have anything to do other than building the mega station.

Well... I mean... it's hard to answer without sounding silly.

Good job. You reached the end of the game! I hope you had fun!
Start a new playthrough with new limitations or just start a completely different game...

What do you do in other games when you 100%ed it?

[jlehtone]

People ask for faster building because "just do something else while it is building" does not work. There isn't enough stuff to do in the game to pad megastation building.

The process is slow, because it is inherited from Rebirth, where Station was grand achievement of your career. End end game stuff. That's not the case in x4, where you start with a cell fab.

Fair point, but ...

I have to ask: what is it that one can do only when one has a megastation, but not before?

Furthermore, if one starts the build so late that there is nothing else left to do, then isn't it the player (rather than the game) that thinks the station as "end end game stuff"?


For the discussion:

* How long should it take to assemble a station? (Second, hour, week, ...?)

* What would be a plausible "throw more money at it" mechanic for the large projects? (E.g. one builder per 1000 modules?)

[BitByte]

I have built barely over 200 modules stations during all these years. The most of modules where consumed to stations before it was possible rotate them 360 to any direction.
Since Egosoft allowed modules full rotation my stations have less than 100 modules all the time (maybe some have over 100 but very few of them).

So in the end it's not so big deal does station construction take 1 hour or 5 hours. I always find something else to do in the game and without SETA.
Personally I don't see any use for giant stations as small ones can operate fine and less saturate markets while making enough profits.

And when you reach the point bank account have 5B and you have all needed blueprints credits are not so important.

[vvvvvvvv]

If the game's essentially over because you've run out of things to do, why continue playing

Because I want to build a station. Or because something may emerge later. There absolutely isn't an endless stream of activities to keep the player busy for 60 hours straight while waiting for a station to finish. Like what exactly am I even supposed to go? Rob SCA of all their ships for the thousandths time? Do another xenon sector flyby, hoping they won't keel over from me being there? Suffer the terraforming again? But terraforming requires BUILDING.

Well... I mean... it's hard to answer without sounding silly.

Good job. You reached the end of the game! I hope you had fun!

It doesn't have to be the end, and I can build 50 more of those with faster building.

If the player has fun building, what exactly does the game achieve by preventing the player from building more?

I have to ask: what is it that one can do only when one has a megastation, but not before?

Experiment with LARGE fleets. Like 20 or so Raptors fully loaded with fighters.

Furthermore, if one starts the build so late that there is nothing else left to do, then isn't it the player

You can start it early, but there is absolutely a ton of wasted downtime while something is being built. Also see paranid questline with their pirate shipyard/paranid temple. Exactly same thing. You have 30 minutes of fun designing this thing, and then wait hours for it to to finally complete.

* How long should it take to assemble a station? (Second, hour, week, ...?)

* What would be a plausible "throw more money at it" mechanic for the large projects? (E.g. one builder per 1000 modules?)

The simplest and easiest approach is to allow multiple builders to construct simultaneously. One builder builds one module, as long as it is either free floating or is connected to partially build one. If build times are unchanged, even if you use fifty builders that can easily be 20 modules for each builder for a medium sized megastation. Meaning it will take 2-3 hours to build with a huge building fleet. Sounds entirely reasonable. 50 builders will cost.... around a billion I think? Again a decent amount.

Also, see modern games. Satisfactory, factorio, crafting games. The usual approach is that as long as all material is supplied build time is zero or several seconds. That is tad too fast for x4, hence suggestion to use many builders to parallelize build.

[vvvvvvvv]

<snip>

Or to put it in different terms.

My playtime in x4 foundations is over a thousand of hours. At this point there isn't anything in the universe that can meaningfully threaten me, and even if I'll start over I already know how to "win". And I'll inevitably win, regardless of starting position, and end up in the same state of the world as before.

However, I do still like the game and would like to have a way to continue playing. Trying to increase difficulty, introduce tougher enemies, and so on. All of this is a dead end direction, because it'll be a 2 hours at most, and then I'll inevitably overwhelm the threat again. Same goes for storylines, I'll just bulldoze through them.

So trying to provide challenge is futile, and the right idea is to provide other ways of entertainment. For example, ways for messing with the sandbox universe. Or stuff like VR support would help a great deal to greatly increase longevity.

Diplomacy that is currently being in BETA falls into that category. It allows me to mess with the universe for much longer time and there's no clear end and victory condition.

Same goes for building. Building does not have an end, because I can build more stations forever. The game, however, stalls me. And here comes a question. What does the game, exactly, gain, by preventing the player from building, when the player wants to build more and faster? If someone wants a "balance" handwave, then this can be made into another Boso Ta research. The cost does not matter, as I'll inevitably gather it.

Why do people play sims and building game for a long time? Because there is no end and you can't win. X4 shares elements with those games.

That's the rough idea of it.

[TheDeliveryMan]

X4 is also a strategy game. The player has the choice to build one large all-in-one mega station that takes ages to build or to build several smaller stations in less time at the cost of increased logistics. Or maybe there is even something in-between, like a few medium sized all-in-one stations, a wharf, an L-shipyard, an XL-shipyard,... The player can make a strategic decision which is the best economical option in their situation.

Adding the option to build mega stations as fast as several smaller stations would remove a strategic game-play mechanic.

The game does not prevent the player from building more faster, the feature is there. It's the player's choice to use that feature or not.

[jlehtone]

I have to ask: what is it that one can do only when one has a megastation, but not before?

Experiment with LARGE fleets. Like 20 or so Raptors fully loaded with fighters.

Two points on that example. The first you said yourself:

Do another xenon sector flyby, hoping they won't keel over from me being there?

That is, there are no fish in the barrel for large fleets to experiment on (let alone for LARGE).

The second, more on point, is that one does not need megastation for assembling a LARGE fleet. You can do that without any stations, although some small stations route is probably faster than either getting all from NPC or the megastation (with current build speed).

I would not need megastation for that.

Suffer the terraforming again? But terraforming requires BUILDING.

At least one S/M Fabrication Bay and some storage modules. Less than 100 modules, AFAIK. That is not a "megabuild", is it?

* What would be a plausible "throw more money at it" mechanic for the large projects? (E.g. one builder per 1000 modules?)

The simplest and easiest approach is to allow multiple builders to construct simultaneously. One builder builds one module, as long as it is either free floating or is connected to partially build one. If build times are unchanged, even if you use fifty builders that can easily be 20 modules for each builder for a medium sized megastation. Meaning it will take 2-3 hours to build with a huge building fleet. Sounds entirely reasonable. 50 builders will cost.... around a billion I think? Again a decent amount.

You suggest a builder per 20 modules? Surely a "tiny" plot of say 50 modules is already "short enough" as is and (overhead of) parallelization would become "worth it" only in "large" projects? Perhaps one builder for each 100 modules?

[vvvvvvvv]

You suggest a builder per 20 modules? Surely a "tiny" plot of say 50 modules is already "short enough" as is and (overhead of) parallelization would become "worth it" only in "large" projects? Perhaps one builder for each 100 modules?

I suggest one builder builds one module at current speed, with no restriction on concurrent number of builders. Construction can start if the module is free floating or connected to partially built module.

Megastation is 1000 modules. 1000 modules divided by 50 builders means one builder will have to build 20 modules. With a 50 module plot, the building fleet will have to construct only one module each.

And a reasonable idea would be to do it through research. unlock parallel builds for 2, 3, 5, 10 and unlimited.