8.0 Beta - Windfall III The Hoard - Still awful

[alt3rn1ty]

Windfall III The Hoard, fly among the hornets nest there ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgdFrgE7VhY

.. as usual its awful, but thats nothing to do with settings, or even my machine, its just the ridiculous amount of fighters there.

@Egosoft, I get that VIG overpower with a swarm, but does there really have to be this much?

Surely they could be just as effective with only half the amount as seen in the video.
My Wharf always prevents any sale of ships to them, but they always gather this many in the last 3 playthroughs I have had.

Even folk with very decent desktops as noted in other topics cant go dogfighting there and expect any where near 60fps.

Could the amount of VIG fighters please be trimmed down a little?

My new laptop (See signature) gets 120 fps pretty much everywhere in the game now, especially with the new DLSS Frame Generation set to x3 .. Its just this one sector that is the fly in the ointment especially when I get in amongst the swarm.

Surely the swarms do not need to be this big.

[linolafett]

Could you please supply us with your (unmodified) save game?
This looks indeed excessive, they should not bunch up like that.

[PersonyPerson]

Windfall III The Hoard, fly among the hornets nest there ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgdFrgE7VhY

.. as usual its awful, but thats nothing to do with settings, or even my machine, its just the ridiculous amount of fighters there.

@Egosoft, I get that VIG overpower with a swarm, but does there really have to be this much?

Surely they could be just as effective with only half the amount as seen in the video.
My Wharf always prevents any sale of ships to them, but they always gather this many in the last 3 playthroughs I have had.

Even folk with very decent desktops as noted in other topics cant go dogfighting there and expect any where near 60fps.

Could the amount of VIG fighters please be trimmed down a little?

My new laptop (See signature) gets 120 fps pretty much everywhere in the game now, especially with the new DLSS Frame Generation set to x3 .. Its just this one sector that is the fly in the ointment especially when I get in amongst the swarm.

Surely the swarms do not need to be this big.

Goodness me your VIG Swarm is huge. My swarms are typically half that size.

The disappointing thing for me is not that the VIG swarm exists, but that it can't be utilised from Diplomacy (Diplomatic Interference) and unleashed onto the rest of the gate network.

When testing, I found that there's some barrier that prevents VIG from invading or being invaded by other factions, so one still can't get the swarm thinned out without destroying it themselves. Wish this barrier was removed once forced to be made hostile with another faction.

[alt3rn1ty]

Could you please supply us with your (unmodified) save game?
This looks indeed excessive, they should not bunch up like that.

OH HOLY COW .. YEEES!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZSumE2 ... sp=sharing

(Sorry for the excited response, but I didn't want to post this in the Tech support topic as it would likely been marked as not really belonging there .. So my thoughts were lets hope a Dev does actually spot this in the general forum, but didn't have much hope - Sooo glad you saw it!).

See also conversation here viewtopic.php?p=5278852#p5278852
Scoob has a desktop with a 5800X3d, and experiences circa 30fps in large battles.

I have seen other similar comments around the forum many times, but nothing seems to get done about ridiculously large gatherings.

Also to complete the VIG story (going against the twins), to have any hope of winning the day we not only need to gather an awesome fleet, but we have to remote control the battle out of sector. Its never been doable in sector as far as I know without having an awful slideshow.

And lastly, as previously mentioned, this is not a one off event, gathering swarms of this size have been a constant in the last three playthroughs.

It would be bad if the challenge of them is cut down too much, but I am pretty sure they do not need to be even half this size to still pose an awesome defence for VIG.

[alt3rn1ty]

When testing, I found that there's some barrier that prevents VIG from invading or being invaded by other factions, so one still can't get the swarm thinned out without destroying it themselves. Wish this barrier was removed once forced to be made hostile with another faction.

I'm hoping somehow we can use the new Diplomacy to convince TRI that VIG need stomping off the face of the X'verse

[adeine]

The sector effects are a bigger problem than the swarm itself. Optimisation of those should be prioritised over removing the most fun engagement in the game. Please do not nerf VIG.

[alt3rn1ty]

The sector effects are a bigger problem than the swarm itself. Optimisation of those should be prioritised over removing the most fun engagement in the game. Please do not nerf VIG.

Well with my previous laptop I have actually made a point of going straight to Windfall III before the swarms amount to anything significant, and the sector effects were not a problem even for that old machine.

I agree they should not be nerfed too much (already mentioned this), but right now in my game they are just waaay too overpowering.

It might be my play style, ie I like to achieve peace throughout the X'verse with everyone so I can enjoy a leisurely game later. All out war is not my thing.
So maybe under those conditions after the VIG story is complete, the VIG swarms just breed like rabbits.

I dont know for sure, but it seems like the VIG swarm jobs are just excessive all the time in my playthroughs.

[LameFox]

VIG seem almost specifically designed to cause bad performance. They rely heavily on S ships and those are concentrated almost entirely within 3 sectors. There was no way all those entities together like that was going well...

When I fought them in my latest game it was barely functional at some points and I wasn't even in sector (I tried but gave up on that idea quickly).

[MKL81]

Windfall III The Hoard, fly among the hornets nest there ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgdFrgE7VhY

.. as usual its awful, but thats nothing to do with settings, or even my machine, its just the ridiculous amount of fighters there.

@Egosoft, I get that VIG overpower with a swarm, but does there really have to be this much?

Surely they could be just as effective with only half the amount as seen in the video.
My Wharf always prevents any sale of ships to them, but they always gather this many in the last 3 playthroughs I have had.

Even folk with very decent desktops as noted in other topics cant go dogfighting there and expect any where near 60fps.

Could the amount of VIG fighters please be trimmed down a little?

My new laptop (See signature) gets 120 fps pretty much everywhere in the game now, especially with the new DLSS Frame Generation set to x3 .. Its just this one sector that is the fly in the ointment especially when I get in amongst the swarm.

Surely the swarms do not need to be this big.

Yet the best part of it is that the more demanding area the... lower is the GPU utilization. This is possibly the only game that I can think of right now, that behaves like that. One would expect that it should be the other way round. However in demanding battles my GPU utilization goes from 85-99% to 25-35%, it barely does any job whatsoever

[LameFox]

That's normal for heavily CPU limited games in my experience.

[MKL81]

That's normal for heavily CPU limited games in my experience.

I'm honestly so tired hearing about "heavily CPU limited" game. This happens regardless if you have whole map explored with hundreds of own stations after 500h of gameplay or just started new scenario 15 minutes ago. Started new game, doing flyby through 3 initial sectors - 100-150fps. Oh hey, 4 destroyers with a wing fighters - drops to 60fps. 5 Enemy destroyers warp in, with it's own fighter wing, starts shooting - 30fps. With today's capabilities of top of the line CPUs and such very basic AI of X4, this should be no sweat for CPU. From my perspective this is engine limitation and optimization issue.

[Alan Phipps]

Like it or not, the game engine and performance is what it is now and is indeed generally cpu-limited. Where particular in-game circumstances apply, I'm sure the devs would like to assist with situational optimisations and workarounds if given the specific evidence and saves to work from.

[Feloidea]

That's normal for heavily CPU limited games in my experience.

I'm honestly so tired hearing about "heavily CPU limited" game. This happens regardless if you have whole map explored with hundreds of own stations after 500h of gameplay or just started new scenario 15 minutes ago. Started new game, doing flyby through 3 initial sectors - 100-150fps. Oh hey, 4 destroyers with a wing fighters - drops to 60fps. 5 Enemy destroyers warp in, with it's own fighter wing, starts shooting - 30fps. With today's capabilities of top of the line CPUs and such very basic AI of X4, this should be no sweat for CPU. From my perspective this is engine limitation and optimization issue.

That is because the game is simulating the entire universe at all times. If this game played in a bubble around the player where only these things that are in the immediate vicinity of the player were actually calculated it would be easy to optimize. But it's not. X4 is a universe simulation and doesn't just operate within a set distance around the player whilst the rest of the ingame world functionally doesn't exist unless the player is looking at it.

That comes with different and much higher computation requirements.

I think a LOT of people forget that the vast majority of games really only have to bother showing whatever it is the player is currently engaging with whilst the enterity of the remaining potential gameworld is essentially just an empty framework. Like, do people think that NPCs in most other games are simulated to fulfill jobs that are a hard requirement for the game world to mechanically function at all times even if the player is currently exploring some cave on the other end of the game map?


I also think you're vastly overestimating the capabilities of current consumer CPUs. Parallel computation of thousands of independent actors is something that you'd expect to see in server farms with multiple CPUs that have a core count in the triple digits to delegate these parallel instructions to different cores.
Meanwhile your average consumer CPU has currently what, eight to sixteen threads (including hyperthreading/SMT)? I don't have the current CPU adoption rates at the top of my head but I would be genuinely surprised if it meaningfully exceeded sixteen (so your typical 8 core/16 threads cpu). There's a reason the game AI is still rather simple for things like trading, pathfinding and fighting and that's because computing appreciably more complex AI for these thousands of simultanous interactions in the universe at any given time would physically melt your typical gaming CPU (or well, hit a hardware limiter to prevent the CPU from spontanous combustion trying to do it).


Not to say I wouldn't love it if the game ran better or that the devs were to use this as an excuse to not optimize where they can, but I think some people have unrealistic expectations based on unrealistic assumptions and misunderstandings on how things actually work.

[alt3rn1ty]

That's normal for heavily CPU limited games in my experience.

I'm honestly so tired hearing about "heavily CPU limited" game. This happens regardless if you have whole map explored with hundreds of own stations after 500h of gameplay or just started new scenario 15 minutes ago. Started new game, doing flyby through 3 initial sectors - 100-150fps. Oh hey, 4 destroyers with a wing fighters - drops to 60fps. 5 Enemy destroyers warp in, with it's own fighter wing, starts shooting - 30fps. With today's capabilities of top of the line CPUs and such very basic AI of X4, this should be no sweat for CPU. From my perspective this is engine limitation and optimization issue.

That is because the game is simulating the entire universe at all times. If this game played in a bubble around the player where only these things that are in the immediate vicinity of the player were actually calculated it would be easy to optimize. But it's not. X4 is a universe simulation and doesn't just operate within a set distance around the player whilst the rest of the ingame world functionally doesn't exist unless the player is looking at it.

That comes with different and much higher computation requirements.

I think a LOT of people forget that the vast majority of games really only have to bother showing whatever it is the player is currently engaging with whilst the enterity of the remaining potential gameworld is essentially just an empty framework. Like, do people think that NPCs in most other games are simulated to fulfill jobs that are a hard requirement for the game world to mechanically function at all times even if the player is currently exploring some cave on the other end of the game map?


I also think you're vastly overestimating the capabilities of current consumer CPUs. Parallel computation of thousands of independent actors is something that you'd expect to see in server farms with multiple CPUs that have a core count in the triple digits to delegate these parallel instructions to different cores.
Meanwhile your average consumer CPU has currently what, eight to sixteen threads (including hyperthreading/SMT)? I don't have the current CPU adoption rates at the top of my head but I would be genuinely surprised if it meaningfully exceeded sixteen (so your typical 8 core/16 threads cpu). There's a reason the game AI is still rather simple for things like trading, pathfinding and fighting and that's because computing appreciably more complex AI for these thousands of simultanous interactions in the universe at any given time would physically melt your typical gaming CPU (or well, hit a hardware limiter to prevent the CPU from spontanous combustion trying to do it).


Not to say I wouldn't love it if the game ran better or that the devs were to use this as an excuse to not optimize where they can, but I think some people have unrealistic expectations based on unrealistic assumptions and misunderstandings on how things actually work.

Would be good if Egosoft could utilise my new machines Intel Ultra 9 NPU to assist with AI.
Its so new though and probably not widely adopted enough yet to warrant them spending time on it currently.

Egosoft (for a small indie) are doing really well though in implementing new technologies.
Since launching the game in 2018, they have overhauled a lot of background tech.
The complete overhaul of the physx to use a new engine which scaled better than the old.
The flight mechanics completely overhauled how every ship in the game feels.
The various implementations of upscaling, FSR / DLSS, now with Frame Generation is superb.
And so many optimisations, I lost count. All listed here. My oldest bug bear with the game was collision avoidance and pathing when landing at all the different stations geometry layout .. all solved (with the exception of the odd asteroid, which are really hard to reproduce for the Devs appreciation).
I have no doubt there are going to be many more optimisations before they move on.

[kooked]

In my run I have ARG occupying The Hoard and Aurora's Dream.
VIG is left with Union Summit, where they have a crazy swarm of fighters, however the only war they are busy with, is against my CPU.

With the 8.0 Diplomacy update I made ARG and VIG hostile, but the war is underwhelming to say the least. VIG is not taking back The Hoard, they have a few fighters there unable to do much. It's even worse in Aurora's Dream where I can count only one VIG fighter.
VIG is also attacking Silent Witness I now and that's probably where they have most forces deployed beside Union Summit, however it's still a tiny amount in comparison. Like Silent Witness I has max 15 VIG fighters, but Union Summit is hundreds.

Note this is post Avarice quest conclusion, which does affect VIG behaviour I believe, and I sided with the Twins, but I doubt that makes any difference.

I don't mind VIG having a ton of units, even though it can be tuned down a little I believe, what bothers me is that they are there sitting doing nothing beside making the entire game lag.
Also ARG does not enter Union Summit ever, even if they are at war now.

[alt3rn1ty]

~ With the 8.0 Diplomacy update I made ARG and VIG hostile, but the war is underwhelming to say the least.~

I'm working towards the very same goal in 8 beta
I want to set TRI against VIG, Windfall III is my worst case.
Any whittling down of VIG forces would be very desirable.

[j.harshaw]

Could you please supply us with your (unmodified) save game?
This looks indeed excessive, they should not bunch up like that.

OH HOLY COW .. YEEES!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZSumE2 ... sp=sharing

The Vigor Syndicate apparently sneakily accumulates more and more ships as the raiding parties they send out get destroyed and the survivors of those raiding parties limp home. Fix should be in a future update. Thanks for the report and the save.

[alt3rn1ty]

Could you please supply us with your (unmodified) save game?
This looks indeed excessive, they should not bunch up like that.

OH HOLY COW .. YEEES!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZSumE2 ... sp=sharing

The Vigor Syndicate apparently sneakily accumulates more and more ships as the raiding parties they send out get destroyed and the survivors of those raiding parties limp home. Fix should be in a future update. Thanks for the report and the save.

Excellent, I thought there was something wrong. Looking forward to when it happens, meanwhile I'm going to be using Diplomacy to try and reduce their numbers.

Thanks Devs for looking into it.

[Alan Phipps]

... and that shows the power of supplying evidence and saves over just unsupported complaints ...

[vvvvvvvv]

Would be good if Egosoft could utilise my new machines Intel Ultra 9 NPU to assist with AI.

AI inference does not help with simulation and is not available on most CPUs. Wrong tool for the job, basically.