[Beta 8.0] strong casualization.

[Salamandero]

What's the point?:

1. In the beta, new goods appeared for sale from traders that can be sold to other traders somewhere else with too big a markup, this was before but not in large proportions. In version 8.00, you can buy 10 damaged singularity engines for 100k credits and sell them to another trader for 150k, which will be 500k net income.

2. Too much junk began to fall for sale from civilian ships, from which again a lot can be collected for sale in 20 minutes, you can score to improve your basic ship. Which in my opinion is quite unbalanced, although at the same time, if this is corrected for the better and will be a little more than before, it is quite fair.

All this was noticed in a couple of hours of playing on the new version.

What is the point then in completing missions if you can make a fortune by reselling inventory items that will be enough for a good ship or station?

[Diamaht]

Disagree here. Having loot out in the open world encourages interaction with the wider galaxy. A mission is just mindless point and click; you follow the yellow glow, shoot the yellow target, get money without ever engaging with the world around you. I would argue that MISSIONS are the casualization. The rewards from looting are not out of balance with missions at this point in the game and they require you to engage with the crafting mechanic in order to make real money. The money you make from looting and crafting is your reward for actively engaging with the X universe. That's a fantastic incentive to really have a good look around and get out of the mission tunnel.

Content needs to be open ended and all around you. This gives the feeling of options. Feeling like I can choose how to play the game and be rewarded for it, regardless of choice, is how open world games should be.

[Salamandero]

for whom missions are more pleasant. I don't mind collecting things in the open world, but this is a resale simulator, not gathering.

When everything is easy, it's no longer interesting to play, there is no challenge, the value of what you get is essentially reduced to zero.

[Diamaht]

for whom missions are more pleasant. I don't mind collecting things in the open world, but this is a resale simulator, not gathering.

When everything is easy, it's no longer interesting to play, there is no challenge, the value of what you get is essentially reduced to zero.

What's the challenge in clicking on a mission offer, mindlessly doing what it says, repeat the process for an hour or two while watching Netflix, for a new ship then actually play the game? Better to actively search in the game world for things and use them to further your goals.

At the very least, both options should be equally viable so the player has choice. That's the whole point of a 4x game.

[Privata]

There is a somewhat concerning amount of shortcuts being added I would argue, I do indeed miss the slower pace of the originals
I think the issue is how/why these spawn and where

if they become more tied to logic and purpose then I think its fine.

[Salamandero]

for whom missions are more pleasant. I don't mind collecting things in the open world, but this is a resale simulator, not gathering.

When everything is easy, it's no longer interesting to play, there is no challenge, the value of what you get is essentially reduced to zero.

What's the challenge in clicking on a mission offer, mindlessly doing what it says, repeat the process for an hour or two while watching Netflix, for a new ship then actually play the game? Better to actively search in the game world for things and use them to further your goals.

At the very least, both options should be equally viable so the player has choice. That's the whole point of a 4x game.

An imbalanced choice where one thing outweighs the other several times?

I don't understand what the point is? If one thing has a colossal imbalance?

[Salamandero]

There is a somewhat concerning amount of shortcuts being added I would argue, I do indeed miss the slower pace of the originals
I think the issue is how/why these spawn and where

if they become more tied to logic and purpose then I think its fine.

Not only did they add something that needed to be mined, but they also made the prices in the shops unbalanced, and you can resell it for 50% more, getting a profit of 150%. Even if you don't find such a shop, you will definitely sell it for 30% more for 130% revenue.

In general, it's not only that they made concessions to casuals, but also that they probably mixed up the values.

Simply put, where the markup should most likely be 5%, someone wrote 50%. How can you even play with this? When you have opened many markets, where there are many trading places, it is too easy to get your first credits in very large quantities, which undermines the value of other activities, and these are not only missions, but also regular trading of goods transported on ships. Some kind of illegal and semi-legal activity.

[Diamaht]

The "hardcore" crowd are by far the minority. It can be proven by in game activity. If a majority of players are using mechanics like loot reselling and satellite reselling to make early game money, it tells you that you don't provide enough enjoyable early game opportunities.

The answer isn't to take away existing opportunities without providing good alternatives. An un-fun early game slog proves nothing other than that you enjoy wasting your time. You only get so much of it.

[Salamandero]

If you have the skills, it won't be hard to earn a lot of credits quickly.

Hardcore players are in the minority, but the level of involvement is still important here. Hardcore players also make a significant contribution.

It's good if there is relief, but not such a cheating one, when in fact there is an opportunity to do almost nothing at the beginning and earn a fortune by pressing a couple of buttons on the buy and sell.

That's why only casuals will play with such mechanics, and even for a regular player it looks quite unbalanced, because other mechanics lose their meaning when you can do nothing from several resale.

The realism of achievements is lost and turns into some kind of surrealism, in my opinion.

[Diamaht]

If you have the skills, it won't be hard to earn a lot of credits quickly.

Hardcore players are in the minority, but the level of involvement is still important here. Hardcore players also make a significant contribution.

It's good if there is relief, but not such a cheating one, when in fact there is an opportunity to do almost nothing at the beginning and earn a fortune by pressing a couple of buttons on the buy and sell.

That's why only casuals will play with such mechanics, and even for a regular player it looks quite unbalanced, because other mechanics lose their meaning when you can do nothing from several resale.

The realism of achievements is lost and turns into some kind of surrealism, in my opinion.

I guess the question I would have, just so i can understand the argument, is what early game options are NOT simply point and click? Early game trading and mission running are certainly not skill intensive. They are basic tasks that familiarize you with the game world.

Also a 20 to 30 percent profit is what you make trading in the early game. As for mission running compared to looting: if you count the time it takes to locate, collect, craft and deal hunt they are about the same.

[Salamandero]

If you have the skills, it won't be hard to earn a lot of credits quickly.

Hardcore players are in the minority, but the level of involvement is still important here. Hardcore players also make a significant contribution.

It's good if there is relief, but not such a cheating one, when in fact there is an opportunity to do almost nothing at the beginning and earn a fortune by pressing a couple of buttons on the buy and sell.

That's why only casuals will play with such mechanics, and even for a regular player it looks quite unbalanced, because other mechanics lose their meaning when you can do nothing from several resale.

The realism of achievements is lost and turns into some kind of surrealism, in my opinion.

I guess the question I would have, just so i can understand the argument, is what early game options are NOT simply point and click? Early game trading and mission running are certainly not skill intensive. They are basic tasks that familiarize you with the game world.

Also a 20 to 30 percent profit is what you make trading in the early game. As for mission running compared to looting: if you count the time it takes to locate, collect, craft and deal hunt they are about the same.

Trading with a significant, in your opinion, 30-50% markup - is this normal? Especially considering the large proportions, when with 1kkk you can get 1.5kkk and more. Considering that the player is just starting to play.

This is cruel, not trading, essentially the same as cheats that disrupt the balance. How to convey this to you - is unclear ...

Why should he play when everything is easy? Maybe some casuals will be interested, but the totality, as for me, consists of ordinary players who are neither hardcore nor casual.

[Diamaht]

50% is rare but 30% all day. Hull Parts can be found for 220 to 230 and sold for 280 to 300 right from the start for example.

[Salamandero]

50% is rare but 30% all day. Hull Parts can be found for 220 to 230 and sold for 280 to 300 right from the start for example.

This is balanced, unlike inventory items that have large proportions and cost 1 hull + weight that is transported by the ship, there is no lemite on inventory items, how much is the profit from 1 hull and how much is the profit from 1 newly introduced inventory item like a singular engine, of which you can buy 10 and sell these 10 at least 30% more expensive. And most likely at most 60%.

[Diamaht]

50% is rare but 30% all day. Hull Parts can be found for 220 to 230 and sold for 280 to 300 right from the start for example.

This is balanced, unlike inventory items that have large proportions and cost 1 hull + weight that is transported by the ship, there is no lemite on inventory items, how much is the profit from 1 hull and how much is the profit from 1 newly introduced inventory item like a singular engine, of which you can buy 10 and sell these 10 at least 30% more expensive. And most likely at most 60%.

Selling from a ship inventory is also scalable. Bigger ship and/or more ships. Looting and crafting profit is static. So having them comparable in the beginning gives the player options and also incentivises them to explore multiple systems.

Looting and crafting profit falls off very quickly once a player gets up and running so there is no threat to it taking over the game. It falls off LONG before the game truly begins. Inventory collecting gives the early game player something interesting to do while waiting for early game miners and traders to complete their tasks

Trading/production completely takes over.

[Salamandero]

50% is rare but 30% all day. Hull Parts can be found for 220 to 230 and sold for 280 to 300 right from the start for example.

This is balanced, unlike inventory items that have large proportions and cost 1 hull + weight that is transported by the ship, there is no lemite on inventory items, how much is the profit from 1 hull and how much is the profit from 1 newly introduced inventory item like a singular engine, of which you can buy 10 and sell these 10 at least 30% more expensive. And most likely at most 60%.

Selling from a ship inventory is also scalable. Bigger ship and/or more ships. Looting and crafting profit is static. So having them comparable in the beginning gives the player options and also incentivises them to explore multiple systems.

Looting and crafting profit falls off very quickly once a player gets up and running so there is no threat to it taking over the game. It falls off LONG before the game truly begins. Inventory collecting gives the early game player something interesting to do while waiting for early game miners and traders to complete their tasks

Trading/production completely takes over.

This is understandable, but in such large proportions everything else doesn't make sense, when you've actually already amassed a fortune. How can I convey this to you?

[Diamaht]

This is balanced, unlike inventory items that have large proportions and cost 1 hull + weight that is transported by the ship, there is no lemite on inventory items, how much is the profit from 1 hull and how much is the profit from 1 newly introduced inventory item like a singular engine, of which you can buy 10 and sell these 10 at least 30% more expensive. And most likely at most 60%.

Selling from a ship inventory is also scalable. Bigger ship and/or more ships. Looting and crafting profit is static. So having them comparable in the beginning gives the player options and also incentivises them to explore multiple systems.

Looting and crafting profit falls off very quickly once a player gets up and running so there is no threat to it taking over the game. It falls off LONG before the game truly begins. Inventory collecting gives the early game player something interesting to do while waiting for early game miners and traders to complete their tasks

Trading/production completely takes over.

This is understandable, but in such large proportions everything else doesn't make sense, when you've actually already amassed a fortune. How can I convey this to you?

If what we are suggesting is an adjustment to the buy/sell gap for specific items between vendors then sure. But I don't think the value of looted items out in space should be diminished.

[Salamandero]

Selling from a ship inventory is also scalable. Bigger ship and/or more ships. Looting and crafting profit is static. So having them comparable in the beginning gives the player options and also incentivises them to explore multiple systems.

Looting and crafting profit falls off very quickly once a player gets up and running so there is no threat to it taking over the game. It falls off LONG before the game truly begins. Inventory collecting gives the early game player something interesting to do while waiting for early game miners and traders to complete their tasks

Trading/production completely takes over.

This is understandable, but in such large proportions everything else doesn't make sense, when you've actually already amassed a fortune. How can I convey this to you?

If what we are suggesting is an adjustment to the buy/sell gap for specific items between vendors then sure. But I don't think the value of looted items out in space should be diminished.

Well, at least we came to some kind of understanding, and that’s good.

[Diamaht]

This is understandable, but in such large proportions everything else doesn't make sense, when you've actually already amassed a fortune. How can I convey this to you?

If what we are suggesting is an adjustment to the buy/sell gap for specific items between vendors then sure. But I don't think the value of looted items out in space should be diminished.

Well, at least we came to some kind of understanding, and that’s good.

For sure

[vvvvvvvv]

What is the point then in completing missions if you can make a fortune by reselling inventory items that will be enough for a good ship or station?

The point is having fun, because it is a sandbox. There are a lot of insane and broken ways to make money very fast. You can start with nothing and get 6-9 millions in minutes. You can also START with a station. It is also possible to earn trillions.

Note that missions are also a lifeline thrown to a player to make things easier, because paying 50k for satellite repair or quick station flight does not make sense economically.

Now, I wouldn't object to the game having some sort of "hardcore" checkbox which makes everything difficult, but would not want this enabled by default or in my game. For challenges there is real life.

[Salamandero]

What is the point then in completing missions if you can make a fortune by reselling inventory items that will be enough for a good ship or station?

The point is having fun, because it is a sandbox. There are a lot of insane and broken ways to make money very fast. You can start with nothing and get 6-9 millions in minutes. You can also START with a station. It is also possible to earn trillions.

Note that missions are also a lifeline thrown to a player to make things easier, because paying 50k for satellite repair or quick station flight does not make sense economically.

Now, I wouldn't object to the game having some sort of "hardcore" checkbox which makes everything difficult, but would not want this enabled by default or in my game. For challenges there is real life.

I fully support it, but the game still has bugs and there is no way to fix them.

The bugs are still there from version 7.0.

It would be nice if there was an iron will mode, like in many other games, but because of the bugs, for now it is only a dream for those who like hardcore in games, including me