Ships stuck trying to rearm at Carrier

[Scoob]

Hey all,

I have a situation I've not seen before...

I use Carriers A LOT. However, I don't that often equip any Subordinate Fighters with Missiles. So, the Carrier ONLY has to Repair those Fighters. Now, perhaps it'd be nice to have the Carrier replenish Flares on those Fighters, but missiles really aren't that much of an issue in Vanilla I find.

I just set up a Carrier, four Fighter Groups in total, told it to "Get Supplies" and it was FULLY stocked from my own stations. Great. I've then gone off exploring in this carrier. During an encounter with a Xenon K, I deployed the Carrier's Defence Wings (16 ships). Now, these guys ARE equipped with Missiles and they made good use of them. Pleased with their performance. When they got back to the Carrier, they tried to resupply their missiles of course. However, the Carrier didn't have enough resources to resupply all those Fighters. No big deal, they'll just have to operate WITHOUT missiles for a bit, but that's not what happens.

Almost HALF of the Carrier's Defence Wing is docked BUT still showing as trying to resupply. They are STUCK in this state and do not appear to be wanting to deploy again. Their order list is:

"Change Equipment [Auto]"
"Assign New Commander [A..." - text is truncated, I assume it's "[auto]"

When ships DON'T have missiles, they don't care if they cannot resupply flares. However, these guys have tried to resupply Missiles when the Carrier is out of resources to do so. Like I said, I don't use Missile-equipped Fighters on Carrier very often, but was having a play with it today. They ARE very effective with Missiles, but if a fully-stocked Carrier cannot hold enough resources to resupply even HALF of the missile-equipped Fighters (two Wings of eight, sixteen in total in the "Defend Commander" role) then that makes Carriers really rather useless in this regard.

Now, in isolation it's FINE if a Carrier runs out of supplies, it happens. Shame we cannot assign a tender to buy resource for them of course, like we can with Support Ships, but hey. What isn't fine is that if the Carrier cannot resupply a Fighter with Missiles, that Fighter then gets stuck until the required resources are delivered. I can of course manually get them delivered, but the Carrier is far from home and my own supply network.

So, do you think that fighters SHOULD be stuck like this until Supplies are delivered / another "Get Supplies" order is issued? Or should they launch with what they've got? The Carriers defence wings are still useful, even if they are out of missiles - they have regular guns too. If they were JUST Missile Builds, fair enough, but they have other weapons fitted.

[Blaze1st]

Can't you set up a repeating order to resupply a carrier?

Never tried it personally but that would be how I imagine it working, and you would need to secure your supply lines so they don't get ambushed enroute.

Edit: Nevermind does seem to me you have to do it manually.

[Raptor34]

It's not just fighters. I have missile destroyers stuck trying to resupply from an aux ship in my fleet too. Fortunately those are for personal use instead of being actually important, but it's still a pain.

[Scoob]

I don't think we can automate Carrier resupply at all, it's been requested, but it seems Egosoft don't want us to have the same functionality as Support (Aux) ships... which is a bit weird. Current Supply Ship logic would work pretty well. I think I managed it with Mods once, but that's not the point.

This just strikes me as a HUGE gap in automation. Missiles can be FUN, but I'm far less inclined to use them. I mean, how CLUNKY is this:

- Fully supplied Carrier ready to go!
- Fighter Wings with MISSILES.
- ONE sortie and the Carrier is out of supplies and many fighters are STUCK
- MANUAL process to get things working again.

Carriers should be better. Vastly more storage, the ability to set Trade Offer, just like an Aux ship. Allow a Carrier to be automatically resupplied.

Aux ships can't mass-launch Fighters like a Carrier can, but they can repair and resupply L and XL-Class ships. They have their niche. It doesn't take anything away from them by making Carriers more functional.

Actually, I did largely STOP using Carriers entirely (prior save) due to the lack of automated resupply. I started building Defence Platforms with S/M Maintenance Bays at key locations. Sure, Fighters didn't launch to Intercept like a Carrier's Fighters can - they'd just sorta randomly amble around the station. However, they WOULD return to the Station for Repair and Resupply. That Station COULD be fully automatically supplied too. I had ship losses, which had to be MANUALLY replaced at the time, but it worked far better than a Carrier if using missiles. What I DIDN'T experience at the time, was ship getting stuck trying to restock missiles when the Carrier became empty. They'd just not replenish missiles, launching again without them. Not perfect, but better than stuck ships.

Having Carriers behave more like Aux ships would be great. Set up a Carrier where you want it, have logistics in place to ensure it's kept well-stocked. Done. I'd suggest a proper "Tender / supply" role for Carriers (and Aux ships) where an assigned ship returns to the Carrier and stays docked until it's needed. Transporters bumbling around an Aux ship (and stations) is bad enough. Need to get rid of the clutter and NOT expose these civilian ships to danger.

[vvvvvvvv]

I don't think we can automate Carrier resupply at all, it's been requested, but it seems Egosoft don't want us to have the same functionality as Support (Aux) ships... which is a bit weird. Current Supply Ship logic would work pretty well. I think I managed it with Mods once, but that's not the point.

This just strikes me as a HUGE gap in automation. Missiles can be FUN, but I'm far less inclined to use them. I mean, how CLUNKY is this:

- Fully supplied Carrier ready to go!
- Fighter Wings with MISSILES.
- ONE sortie and the Carrier is out of supplies and many fighters are STUCK
- MANUAL process to get things working again.

Carriers should be better. Vastly more storage, the ability to set Trade Offer, just like an Aux ship. Allow a Carrier to be automatically resupplied.

Aux ships can't mass-launch Fighters like a Carrier can, but they can repair and resupply L and XL-Class ships. They have their niche. It doesn't take anything away from them by making Carriers more functional.

Actually, I did largely STOP using Carriers entirely (prior save) due to the lack of automated resupply. I started building Defence Platforms with S/M Maintenance Bays at key locations. Sure, Fighters didn't launch to Intercept like a Carrier's Fighters can - they'd just sorta randomly amble around the station. However, they WOULD return to the Station for Repair and Resupply. That Station COULD be fully automatically supplied too. I had ship losses, which had to be MANUALLY replaced at the time, but it worked far better than a Carrier if using missiles. What I DIDN'T experience at the time, was ship getting stuck trying to restock missiles when the Carrier became empty. They'd just not replenish missiles, launching again without them. Not perfect, but better than stuck ships.

Having Carriers behave more like Aux ships would be great. Set up a Carrier where you want it, have logistics in place to ensure it's kept well-stocked. Done. I'd suggest a proper "Tender / supply" role for Carriers (and Aux ships) where an assigned ship returns to the Carrier and stays docked until it's needed. Transporters bumbling around an Aux ship (and stations) is bad enough. Need to get rid of the clutter and NOT expose these civilian ships to danger.

An interesting thing to consider is component size.

For example, heavy dumbfire missile, universal recipe:
7x energy cells, 5x missile components.

But.

A single energy cell takes 1 cubic meter, and a single missile component takes 2. So... 27 cubic meters of stuff to construct ONE missile. That's approaching shipping container volume. For one missile.

[Raptor34]

I don't think we can automate Carrier resupply at all, it's been requested, but it seems Egosoft don't want us to have the same functionality as Support (Aux) ships... which is a bit weird. Current Supply Ship logic would work pretty well. I think I managed it with Mods once, but that's not the point.

This just strikes me as a HUGE gap in automation. Missiles can be FUN, but I'm far less inclined to use them. I mean, how CLUNKY is this:

- Fully supplied Carrier ready to go!
- Fighter Wings with MISSILES.
- ONE sortie and the Carrier is out of supplies and many fighters are STUCK
- MANUAL process to get things working again.

Carriers should be better. Vastly more storage, the ability to set Trade Offer, just like an Aux ship. Allow a Carrier to be automatically resupplied.

Aux ships can't mass-launch Fighters like a Carrier can, but they can repair and resupply L and XL-Class ships. They have their niche. It doesn't take anything away from them by making Carriers more functional.

Actually, I did largely STOP using Carriers entirely (prior save) due to the lack of automated resupply. I started building Defence Platforms with S/M Maintenance Bays at key locations. Sure, Fighters didn't launch to Intercept like a Carrier's Fighters can - they'd just sorta randomly amble around the station. However, they WOULD return to the Station for Repair and Resupply. That Station COULD be fully automatically supplied too. I had ship losses, which had to be MANUALLY replaced at the time, but it worked far better than a Carrier if using missiles. What I DIDN'T experience at the time, was ship getting stuck trying to restock missiles when the Carrier became empty. They'd just not replenish missiles, launching again without them. Not perfect, but better than stuck ships.

Having Carriers behave more like Aux ships would be great. Set up a Carrier where you want it, have logistics in place to ensure it's kept well-stocked. Done. I'd suggest a proper "Tender / supply" role for Carriers (and Aux ships) where an assigned ship returns to the Carrier and stays docked until it's needed. Transporters bumbling around an Aux ship (and stations) is bad enough. Need to get rid of the clutter and NOT expose these civilian ships to danger.

Do carrier assigned fighters fly to aux ships to resupply?

[Scoob]

An interesting thing to consider is component size.

For example, heavy dumbfire missile, universal recipe:
7x energy cells, 5x missile components.

But.

A single energy cell takes 1 cubic meter, and a single missile component takes 2. So... 27 cubic meters of stuff to construct ONE missile. That's approaching shipping container volume. For one missile.

Yeah, when you consider these things the numbers seem more than a little crazy at times. S-Class ships are actually quite large, but missile tubes evidently use the classic Cargo Compression Tech to fit

Do carrier assigned fighters fly to aux ships to resupply?

Yes, they will fly to a deployed Aux ship, sometimes even one not deplyed. They'll also visit player-owned Equipment Docks and the like. I have a Carrier group protecting a Station of mine that has S/M Maintenance Bays. The Carrier I leave empty, and it's Fighters will visit the Station to replenish missiles etc. just fine.

However, while there are options, a Carrier really should be able to support a missile-wielding Fighter Group or two for multiple sorties. Certain Mods (thinking VRO) tend to enhance the capacity of Carriers, which makes them much more useful. Also, and I don't really like doing it, I have in the past exploited the "Closed-Loop" build method so many missiles just take Energy Cells. Seems very exploity though.

I would like to make greater use of Missiles - they're cool - but I feel Carriers are just too heavily compromised to support them when alone. It seems silly to have to bring along a Support ship to resupply the Fighters on a Carrier...

What's the answer do you think? More cargo space on Carriers or cheaper Missiles? The later will really throw off the current price balance, so the former seems to more obvious choice. Perhaps a given amount of resources should make more than one missile? I.e. That Dumbfire missile still takes 7 ECs and 5 MCs BUT gives 5 or 10 missiles. Obviously rounding an partial refills become a potential consideration then...

[Raptor34]

What's the answer do you think? More cargo space on Carriers or cheaper Missiles? The later will really throw off the current price balance, so the former seems to more obvious choice. Perhaps a given amount of resources should make more than one missile? I.e. That Dumbfire missile still takes 7 ECs and 5 MCs BUT gives 5 or 10 missiles. Obviously rounding an partial refills become a potential consideration then...

I'll overhaul it so you can carry missiles as full rounds.
Basically a compromise between the old and new systems. I've written about it before on my missile overhaul suggestion.

But basically ships can use their cargo bays to carry missiles in a storage configuration, these missiles would be sold at EQ docks or shipyards. Though you can also limit them to EQ docks to give them more unique features. However, you can't just convert these stored missiles into active missiles, you still need to dock at the current missile rearming capable locations. Not for destroyers though, so you can ferry missiles to them with S ships.
Incidentally these stored missiles would take up less space than their raw materials, because once you strip out all the packaging and wastage, they would logically be smaller.
An advantage of this is that you don't have to count how many missiles you can reload, you can just see how many missiles you have. Should also make eyeballing carriers easier too now that you can just look at a carrier and say, this carrier can carry less fighters but more missiles and vice versa for the other, so the first one is suitable for missile ships and the second one isn't.

[Scoob]

I think it needs something. It always disappointed me that I couldn't collect dropped missiles up to a ship's cargo capacity.

An interesting things just happened. The Carrier eventually got "home" so I ordered it to replenish resources via the "Get Supplies" command. It did this and it now full. However, the stuck ships are still stuck. I'm going to totally EMPTY the Carrier and try again. It looks like it gets a bit confused when it already has some cargo. So, while it's bought LOADS of Missile Components, it's not bought ANY Smart Chips....

[Raptor34]

I think it needs something. It always disappointed me that I couldn't collect dropped missiles up to a ship's cargo capacity.

Honestly that's pretty much nothing compared to how cargo space is now mostly useless.
It does make a certain amount of sense, and if I was new to the X universe I wouldn't think much of it, but think back to how important cargo space was to balancing back then. Though one thing I don't miss is equipped gear taking up space, but the lack of any sort of consumables being there feels weird.

[Scoob]

Honestly that's pretty much nothing compared to how cargo space is now mostly useless.
It does make a certain amount of sense, and if I was new to the X universe I wouldn't think much of it, but think back to how important cargo space was to balancing back then. Though one thing I don't miss is equipped gear taking up space, but the lack of any sort of consumables being there feels weird.

Yeah, it's a minor side effect of the changes for sure.

I think stations using parts to assemble Missiles as needed is fine. Those missiles only able to be loaded into tubes, and not regular cargo, not so much.