Xenon need a boost?

[Gigawatts]

"zero" is a figurative expression characterizing the state of affairs. Do you teach literature or only mathematics?)))

I suppose this is an attempt to prove to me that my feelings are lying to me, and in fact I was interested in playing.))) This is unfortunate....

So that you understand, I started with the Earth protectorate and traded only with them for the first 120 hours, after which I began to explore the sectors. And I was very disappointed to see that the Xenons remained only in the upper sectors. Argon had already begun to occupy sectors above the "choice of Hatikvah" Teladi had already occupied the Split sectors that were occupied by the Xenons. Only the Splits lost a little of their territory, but this is classic. They could never defend themselves without player intervention.
And you want to say that I invested a huge contribution in this for 120 hours trading junk with earthlings? IMHO...

I played X3, I played X4 after the release. And I was interested in playing because it was not enough to just supply resources to allies, you had to directly intervene using your fleet to stop the Xenons. It was cool. And now it's like non-carbonated beer.....

[LameFox]

I don't think they were saying you were wrong? I read it as rather implying that, since the player might need to actively protect the Xenon, the faction's difficulty level is more inverted into the negative than merely zero.

[jlehtone]

Regardless of what the "zero" means, how should the "10x" be computed from it?
That is the only thing that computers can do: calculate.
That is the only thing that devs can tell the computers to do: calculate.
That is what we should propose: what to calculate.

How and what would you like the "10x option" be compared to the current "zero"?
What technical change would produce that?
What (undesirable) side-effects can you foresee to spawn from such change?

[Franklin2025]

How about making a giant mining ship and use it as local miner ships. Gas and ore.
maybe a mini DLC

Miner can buy and sell gas / ore.

Xenon can build it too so no miner can jump from A to E, miners can be destroyed in process when traveling.

[Gigawatts]

Regardless of what the "zero" means, how should the "10x" be computed from it?
That is the only thing that computers can do: calculate.
That is the only thing that devs can tell the computers to do: calculate.
That is what we should propose: what to calculate.

How and what would you like the "10x option" be compared to the current "zero"?
What technical change would produce that?
What (undesirable) side-effects can you foresee to spawn from such change?

I wrote *10 from the current one if such an opportunity were available. This is just my opinion and it does not belong to the suggestions section.
I have already described the solution to this problem above. The only correct solution is the ability to adjust the complexity so that this problem is no longer returned to and man-hours are not wasted in a circle on solving an unsolvable problem.
But unfortunately the moderator said that the magic wand with which the X series was created was lost and there is no longer any opportunity to change or develop anything))))
What can we do with variable values ​​in configuration files and scripts.

[jlehtone]

I wrote *10 from the current one if such an opportunity were available. This is just my opinion and it does not belong to the suggestions section.
I have already described the solution to this problem above. The only correct solution is the ability to adjust the complexity ...

That is still vague. What should we be able to multiply by N?

Let me guess:
- number of modules on Xenon stations
- number of ships (and stations) that Xenon can have (N*jobs and N*ships_per_job)
- speed of those ships
- hull, shields, and cargobay of those ships
- range and damage of the guns of those ships
- and divide build time and resource needs by N

All of those (does naturally not apply to ships that player can get), with "one slider"?

Is that what the "*10" would affect, or something more?

What if we, the players, cannot agree what sliders to have and
nobody bothers to tell the devs what we were actually thinking, when we said "better"?

[vkolosov]

I don’t believe in difficulty sliders in X4. Having more difficulty settings means more balancing issues. Now, people will make threads like “Xenon are too weak on easy” and “Xenon are too difficult on hard”.

Current balance is pretty good already. It’s the Xenon economy that needs some tweaks to become sustainable through mid and late game. If miners and energy traders would not die out and be more rational about their decisions, Xenon wharfs would keep pumping out ships, the war would go on, and everyone would be happy.

Again, this issue is fixable with mods. Cheaper Ships for Xenon lowers the resource cost. There are mods that add mining jobs so more resources are gathered. And finally there’s Cheat Menu which you can use to manually top up resources at Xenon stations. I use all of these methods and have a lot of fun in my game: there’s war, there’s a threat, I have huge battles for systems, etc etc.

Should the developers fix these issues? I’m not sure, but if they consider this option, I’ll be happy. If not — mods for the rescue.

[MKL81]

Current balance is pretty good already. It’s the Xenon economy that needs some tweaks to become sustainable through mid and late game. If miners and energy traders would not die out and be more rational about their decisions, Xenon wharfs would keep pumping out ships, the war would go on, and everyone would be happy.

I still believe Xenon should have more jobs with regards to their own sector patrols, hence why I use Xenon Jobs mod. Teladi stomp those weak ass fleets each and every time, I have never seen any other other outcome for the past 3 or 4 years of playing.

Again, this issue is fixable with mods. Cheaper Ships for Xenon lowers the resource cost. There are mods that add mining jobs so more resources are gathered. And finally there’s Cheat Menu which you can use to manually top up resources at Xenon stations. I use all of these methods and have a lot of fun in my game: there’s war, there’s a threat, I have huge battles for systems, etc etc.

That is not a solution, tried "Cheaper ships" this is not helping Xenon in the long run. Having zero ECs at their Wharfs and Shipyards change nothing unless you let them build ships for free. The problem is miner/trader logic, where dumb Xenon send them out everywhere instead keeping majority of them within owned sectors, then they get killed, then they deplete station resource to build another ones, then they send them away, then they get killed, then they deplete station resources... yeah you know the sequence already This is exactly what other factions do as well because the logic is on general level, even for player. Thing is that other factions are not enemy with absolutely everyone, therefore it is somehow working for them. Cheating is no fun to me and believe me, I also used Cheat Menu in the past to spawn fleets for Xenon.

[adeine]

That is not a solution, tried "Cheaper ships" this is not helping Xenon in the long run. Having zero ECs at their Wharfs and Shipyards change nothing unless you let them build ships for free. The problem is miner/trader logic, where dumb Xenon send them out everywhere instead keeping majority of them within owned sectors, then they get killed, then they deplete station resource to build another ones, then they send them away, then they get killed, then they deplete station resources... yeah you know the sequence already This is exactly what other factions do as well because the logic is on general level, even for player. Thing is that other factions are not enemy with absolutely everyone, therefore it is somehow working for them. Cheating is no fun to me and believe me, I also used Cheat Menu in the past to spawn fleets for Xenon.

A semi cheaty way along these lines that might help Xenon a lot is if any completed station module spawned 'mass traffic' mining drones that can mine in the same sector the station is in. A large part of the problem is Xenon suiciding all their miners, and thus starving out rapidly.

This way they'd have some additional guaranteed trickle of resources coming in to help replenish, without being outright wizarded from nowhere.

[Gigawatts]

I wrote *10 from the current one if such an opportunity were available. This is just my opinion and it does not belong to the suggestions section.
I have already described the solution to this problem above. The only correct solution is the ability to adjust the complexity ...

That is still vague. What should we be able to multiply by N?

Let me guess:
- number of modules on Xenon stations
- number of ships (and stations) that Xenon can have (N*jobs and N*ships_per_job)
- speed of those ships
- hull, shields, and cargobay of those ships
- range and damage of the guns of those ships
- and divide build time and resource needs by N

All of those (does naturally not apply to ships that player can get), with "one slider"?

Is that what the "*10" would affect, or something more?

What if we, the players, cannot agree what sliders to have and
nobody bothers to tell the devs what we were actually thinking, when we said "better"?

Okay, I'll explain it to you. Having sliders is already a modified game exactly the same as the game in its scenario. Fine-tuning the difficulty in other words. But we need the ability to pass legally, but on standard difficulty settings that consist of 3+ modes. To create these modes, we need to start from something. In my opinion, the current settings are at the level of "very easy" I repeat "in my opinion". So that there is less pickiness over every word))) If you want to hear from me what exactly to edit in which line, then it will cost money for the work. I think on this note there is no point in continuing the discussion or argument. I made a proposal and was heard. That's all I wanted))))

[Gigawatts]

I don’t believe in difficulty sliders in X4. Having more difficulty settings means more balancing issues. Now, people will make threads like “Xenon are too weak on easy” and “Xenon are too difficult on hard”.

Current balance is pretty good already. It’s the Xenon economy that needs some tweaks to become sustainable through mid and late game. If miners and energy traders would not die out and be more rational about their decisions, Xenon wharfs would keep pumping out ships, the war would go on, and everyone would be happy.

Again, this issue is fixable with mods. Cheaper Ships for Xenon lowers the resource cost. There are mods that add mining jobs so more resources are gathered. And finally there’s Cheat Menu which you can use to manually top up resources at Xenon stations. I use all of these methods and have a lot of fun in my game: there’s war, there’s a threat, I have huge battles for systems, etc etc.

Should the developers fix these issues? I’m not sure, but if they consider this option, I’ll be happy. If not — mods for the rescue.

This is a constructive answer. I partially agree with you. And I also went down this path. Why partially? This is still a temporary solution, the challenge was to complete the game without the "modified" signature and have fun at the same time. But it was not meant to be)))) I'll try another time.

[jlehtone]

I don’t believe in difficulty sliders in X4. Having more difficulty settings means more balancing issues. Now, people will make threads like “Xenon are too weak on easy” and “Xenon are too difficult on hard”.

Current balance is pretty good already. It’s the Xenon economy that needs some tweaks to become sustainable through mid and late game. If miners and energy traders would not die out and be more rational about their decisions, Xenon wharfs would keep pumping out ships, the war would go on, and everyone would be happy.

I do agree with the "no sliders, please" and the balance being close to good.


The Xenon SE do have three tasks to do:

1. Support local ship production
2. Support nearby station construction
3. Migrate to other Xenon pockets to do #1 or #2

I have not checked whether the #3 carry a load with them. If empty ... what good is an empty Power SE in a pocket that has no SPP?

If #1 is not done, then pocket runs out of ships, which is fatal.
If #2 is not done, then Xenon have no chance to expand and if they lose stations, the #1 stops too.
If #3 is not done, then they can never recover pockets, where #1 or #2 has failed.


There is no simple one "Xenon strength". There are at least the "survival" and "threat" features. Suicide bombers may be a threat for a while, but lack survival and will thus run out. Tom Bombadil was not a clear and present danger, but had more plot armor than most of us.

If a Xenon sector were near invincible, then Xenon had no issue to survive. The player could take them on, intentionally. Naturally, if the Xenon could take another sector, even without nearly not trying -- without being an imminent threat -- then their logic to fortify their own sectors would make them a gradual threat. Obviously that would not be the "threat" that some players crave for.


The Xenon do have a disadvantage. Weapon range. NPC Oddy can demolish Xenon station in both low and high attention without taking damage. No dashing into Graviton range. When range is not enough, a moving gun -- a fleet -- is necessary. Either Xenon have no fleets that could rescue stations, or they don't send them to rescue, or they trickle in so small groups that attacker can wipe them. If there are Xenon fleets that do swarm the attacker, that is more an exception than a norm. A Xenon swarm can definitely devour a lot.


In my opinion, the Xenon "homeland security" -- both logistics and combat jobs -- could and should be increased. Yes, it will indirectly increase the Xenon ability to (re)produce their "raider" jobs, which can easily change the "balance" with other factions. That is a risk.

What alternatives are there? Buff their stations? With longer range weapons?

Making Xenon sectors harder to take will naturally change difficulty of Yaki trade and SCA terraforming goals. Can we afford that?

[adeine]

The Xenon do have a disadvantage. Weapon range. NPC Oddy can demolish Xenon station in both low and high attention without taking damage. No dashing into Graviton range. When range is not enough, a moving gun -- a fleet -- is necessary. Either Xenon have no fleets that could rescue stations, or they don't send them to rescue, or they trickle in so small groups that attacker can wipe them. If there are Xenon fleets that do swarm the attacker, that is more an exception than a norm. A Xenon swarm can definitely devour a lot.

What alternatives are there? Buff their stations? With longer range weapons?

This is a problem not just with Xenon.

[MKL81]

The Xenon SE do have three tasks to do:

1. Support local ship production
2. Support nearby station construction
3. Migrate to other Xenon pockets to do #1 or #2

I have not checked whether the #3 carry a load with them. If empty ... what good is an empty Power SE in a pocket that has no SPP?

If #1 is not done, then pocket runs out of ships, which is fatal.
If #2 is not done, then Xenon have no chance to expand and if they lose stations, the #1 stops too.
If #3 is not done, then they can never recover pockets, where #1 or #2 has failed.

The problem with #3 is that for some reason Xenon are sending vast majority of their SEs to other pockets or to mine in remote locations, which gets them blown to pieces. They should keep majority locally. I'm unable to count now how many times I saw Xenon to starve this way and be destroyed by even small fleets from other factions. Every faction should focus on mining at nearest locations as priority, I don't think Egosoft will want to maintain different logic for Xenon vs other factions.

In my opinion, the Xenon "homeland security" -- both logistics and combat jobs -- could and should be increased. Yes, it will indirectly increase the Xenon ability to (re)produce their "raider" jobs, which can easily change the "balance" with other factions. That is a risk.

What alternatives are there? Buff their stations? With longer range weapons?

Making Xenon sectors harder to take will naturally change difficulty of Yaki trade and SCA terraforming goals. Can we afford that?

I've been saying this. Local patrol jobs and ship count should be increased along with the changes to trading/mining. As for terraforming - this is absolute endgame activity, requiring some considerable resources on player's side, I would say that you are assumed to be able to take care of such situation by the time you are ready for terraforming.

[jlehtone]

This is a problem not just with Xenon.

A side-effect.
We used to send ships to kill stations. They ventured close. We were offended that a station that we wanted dead dared to hurt our worthless scrap and shouted: "Stupid AI!"
Egosoft has tuned those ventures.
Now ships kill stations and we see a new reason to shout: "Stupid AI!"


It is true that all stations are vulnerable, but not to Xenon. Xenon ships are forced to go into kill zone to hurt any station, and everybody else can bombard Xenon stations. Hence, they are an edge case.

[LameFox]

All of that is pretty internally consistent if you understand that players just don't want the game experience to feel cheap and random. Whether it's their destroyers committing suicide for no reason or the game's designated "big bad" faction getting cleared by random NPCs while the player isn't looking.

[Tharrg]

Think it is just luck.

Xenon is doing fine in my game. I am using X4-Reemergence, which, unfortunately, forces VRO. I lost my first ship when the Agron Prime shipyard got destroyed. I am desperately defending Holy Vison to protect my Hyperion until I get a third Progammable Field Array. Pretty sure it would have fallen without my help. It is tough going as I only have the first Hyperion, the Terren plot's syn and the abandoned Odysseus Vanguard with which to defend Holy Vision.

Project Genesis start with seed="3396568906" but using X4-Reemergence andTrey's sectors Reemergence Patch standalone

https://www.nexusmods.com/x4foundations/mods/1166
https://www.nexusmods.com/x4foundations/mods/1556

[Blaze1st]

My observations suggest to me that some of the following should be considered:

1) Make ZYA stronger somehow. They get decimated by Xenon & Arg/Ant/Bor so they have no chance unless player intervenes.

2) Give TEL some other oponent, either from the outset or via an early mission that starts someone warring with them.

3) Make TER interventions target the biggest "problem" areas as a priority and leave weaker Xenon sectors alone so that they aren't effective unless player assists.

Just my inexperienced thoughts.

[LameFox]

Think it is just luck.

Xenon is doing fine in my game. I am using X4-Reemergence, which, unfortunately, forces VRO. I lost my first ship when the Agron Prime shipyard got destroyed. I am desperately defending Holy Vison to protect my Hyperion until I get a third Progammable Field Array. Pretty sure it would have fallen without my help. It is tough going as I only have the first Hyperion, the Terren plot's syn and the abandoned Odysseus Vanguard with which to defend Holy Vision.

Project Genesis start with seed="3396568906" but using X4-Reemergence andTrey's sectors Reemergence Patch standalone

https://www.nexusmods.com/x4foundations/mods/1166
https://www.nexusmods.com/x4foundations/mods/1556

This is changing so much I don't think it can really provide any meaningful information about the state of the vanilla game.

1) Make ZYA stronger somehow. They get decimated by Xenon & Arg/Ant/Bor so they have no chance unless player intervenes.

Given they've canonically just finished a war it may be their weakness is intended. Although personally I would prefer they were a bit more independent still than they are currently.

Not that it would help Xenon any—only drive home how poorly they perform if they could no longer take territory from even the weakest main faction.

[Blaze1st]

I forgot for point 1 to also include making Arg/Ant a bit weaker at the same time.