I'd like an XL battleship DLC

[vvvvvvvv]

The ship models of X4 are too busy and overdesigned. It only hurts performance ans is visual clutter without any real gameplay or aesthetic benefit.

GPU isn't really concerned with a few extra polygons. And regarding streamlined hulls, that was done in Rebirth. The result was a huge number of highly similar ships.

Taranis, Tituriel, Sul, Rahanas --> A brick with slightly varying length.

Now, compare that to Barbarossa, Erlking, Boron or Split ships. There will be a lot more character in x4.

[Falcrack]

It takes roughly a month for the devs to create a large detailed ship, such as the Asgard. If all the other five factions now get one, it would clog the workload of the devs for almost half a year just for that alone.

I don't think that's quite an accurate way of looking at things. It might be a month for an artist or two to make an XL ship. That is not the entire Egosoft team, which would still be available to be working on the base game, while an artist or two focuses on some new ship models.

[capitalduty]

So, after every faction copies the Terrans and builds a superpowerful battleship, wouldn't you expect the Terrans to respond with a deathstar-type vessel, to counter all those new battleships? After all, they are the recognized technology leader in the X Universe and they'd need to do something to regain their edge.

Syn is undoubtedly the most powerful destroyer right now, but I haven't seen players demanding that every faction get a direct copy of it. ...

I never said "direct copy". I meant that the other factions would copy the Terrans by building their own battleships. And then superbattleships. And then ... 'deathstars'. Do you understand where I'm going with this?

Terran Edge will remain because, there is no faction that can make an Asgard XL deathray beam in lore....factions could try have same category classes but neither the exact same performance nor with the same lore fight doctrine....One example, Boron faction could field a Megalodon battleship that is meant to be the best tank ship possible but vs terran Asgard this ship won't win you a 1v1 battle, but maybe against Xenon I or Ks could take a serious beating an survive, this to get enough time to remaining fleet carrier and destroyer support to help win the day thus ensuring that boron pacifist nature and defense oriented ships lore is accommodated. As long as Egosoft respect lore an military traditions of each faction and current fight doctrines is totally doable and reasonable to have more battleships for each of main factions.

[surferx]

Because what's next, does TER also need a super-heavy carrier? Does ARG and SPL also need a fast L-sized carrier? Do we really want everyone to have everything? There is no need for everyone to have a copy of everything, that is imho redundant.

What's next is, as I said, once there are XL BS in every faction, they will want an even bigger XXL size and it will never end.

The ship models of X4 are too busy and overdesigned. It only hurts performance ans is visual clutter without any real gameplay or aesthetic benefit. Precious modeling time having been wasted on tons of useless parts sticking out like a sore thumb from the fuselage etc.
Just take a bit more of a realistic design approach from now on. See modern ship and equipment design as an example, where you see more streamlined hull (and therefore easier to model)

This is why they take so long and waste a ton of money, they will barely if never make back. One entire year for some DLC and over half a year for a Mini-DLC with one ship, which is just an update of an old, already conceptualized ship from a past game. And no free ship updates ever.

The Cutlass and Odachi are a step in the right direction, beautiful, but still practical and plausible. Sadly Egosoft dropped the ball again by making them useless museum pieces.

So Egosoft should dumb-down the exquisite details that make this game awesome? Just to produce bigger, and bigger ships?

Edited

[Raptor34]

It takes roughly a month for the devs to create a large detailed ship, such as the Asgard. If all the other five factions now get one, it would clog the workload of the devs for almost half a year just for that alone. And for what? Gameplay-wise there's little to gain from it, other than having faction flavor. That, and I could argue that the Raptor already is kind of a battleship, just classified as a carrier.

I'm actually happy with the current approach to factions, which is to give each something that is unique to them. TER have their battleship, BOR have their light carrier, SPL have their battleship/carrier hybrid, and I wish TEL had an XL freighter, ARG an XL miner, and PAR could also get something that only they are really good at. I think this is the direction the devs should go into.

Because what's next, does TER also need a super-heavy carrier? Does ARG and SPL also need a fast L-sized carrier? Do we really want everyone to have everything? There is no need for everyone to have a copy of everything, that is imho redundant.

I understand that there are limited resources, but based on previous Egosoft experience, making more content for existing factions, that includes corporations and similar content have reported gains to them. X3 Terran conflict/ Albion Prelude have a wide range of ships for each faction, they still had enough diversity and style to remain unique, yes they have massive battleships M2+ ships too...Many X fans love these games, when Ego try to do something too different it doesn't sell to well (look at X-Rebirth and Timelines for instance), so resources invested to give more content geared for existing factions we could argue that is Egosoft best interest. Look at the hype that hyperion is generating....is only one returning ship made in a awesome style. Many players had in the past the famous Panther and Tiger as theirs main ship....these will sell very well, for that I am sure.

Another point to observe, the best valued DLC is Cradle of humanity (terrans) oh!! surprise. Look what we got???? plenty of ships and returning loved faction, for me specially L and XL vessel where masterful additions to this DLC.

That's pretty fair, Egosoft do need to make money after all.
But I find it very funny you talk about the Panther and Tiger in the thread about XL battleships. Because both of those are on the lighter end.
Incidentally so is the Hyp. So, doesn't that instead indicate that Egosoft should move away from big ships and towards the intermediate ones instead?

It takes roughly a month for the devs to create a large detailed ship, such as the Asgard. If all the other five factions now get one, it would clog the workload of the devs for almost half a year just for that alone.

I don't think that's quite an accurate way of looking at things. It might be a month for an artist or two to make an XL ship. That is not the entire Egosoft team, which would still be available to be working on the base game, while an artist or two focuses on some new ship models.

Sure, so a whole year without new ships and only new systems? But looking at the past, how many players actually want XL battleships if they aren't just Iwin buttons anyway?
Popular ships from X3 has mostly been in the M7 class or the more powerful M6 like the Hyp and Springblossom.

People want the Valhalla, how many actually liked the Valhalla? Which incidentally is also somewhat of a concern for me, that is the bigger ships went, it feels like they become more and more brick like. Off memory the only big ships, that aren't brick like is the Megalodon and the X4 Raptor. And I guess the X4 Xenon I too if that counts. Though that's more of a cuved-ish brick but I'm nitpicking here.

[Caedes91]

So Egosoft should dumb-down the exquisite details that make this game awesome? Just to produce bigger, and bigger ships?

Edited

Nobody said dumbing down. Don't put words into peoples' mouths. What you describe as "exquisite details" is just clutter. You can still design beautiful and unique ships without blowing up the polygon count.

[Nerwesta]

Destroyers are L ship that can be accessed fairly easily, Battleships shouldn't.
Destroyers can be spammed, Battleships shouldn't
Destroyers can even be accessible easily from other races, Battleships shouldn't.

Asgard can be spammed. Erlking not, but no faction uses Erlking. Do we want ships for factions, or for player?

If Asgard happens to be spammed, it's a design mistake to me, the keyword from my message is " shouldn't ".
People should make their own mind, if Asgard is already "I WIN" ship, then it shouldn't be spammed.

All battleships could be weaker than the Asgard, but they should still be unique—and it seems like most people agree on that.

Egosoft has shown an intention to differentiate faction ships since the first DLC. The Rattlesnake, for example, stands out from other destroyers with its higher speed, weaker shields, and shorter weapon range. However, it doesn’t fully define a faction’s tactics. The Ray is definitely unique, but it’s also the only destroyer distinct enough to build a strategy around.

In other words, the release of the Enhanced base game Destroyers did miss a window of opportunity to differentiate them?

Btw, HOP does not use Carriers. Granted, it is not a "main faction" ... (perhaps TRI could take a "Battleship" into use, so all access to it would be locked behind a plot choice )

We both know pefectly well that this "issue" can be updated so it reflect the change some are asking, which is to have that class of ships on every races.
We shouldn't split hairs on such mundane issues but stick to the general point, so the core of the debate shouldn't get derailed.

Do you agree that a ship more powerful than Destroyers has been asked for? The Terrans and Xenon do now have some lead on power (although the Xenon still get a beating from factions' "weak ships"). By lore they want to keep that "advantage". Therefore, if other factions build more powerful ships, then they should do that too, to "maintain superiority".

From the first part of your sentence, I agree to that.
From the other, I absolutely not. A class of ship is just ... a class of ship, that is XL Fighter here.
Xenons could even spam the I and Terrans still have the most powerful main gun on the universe, it doesn't really change the equilibrium if other races get the means to build a Battleship.
Again, please tell me how the hell do you attack a station with a Ray ? How this Destroyer is anything close to the Behemoth or the Rattlesnake, despite bearing the same class. ( Destroyer ! )

It takes roughly a month for the devs to create a large detailed ship, such as the Asgard. If all the other five factions now get one, it would clog the workload of the devs for almost half a year just for that alone. And for what? Gameplay-wise there's little to gain from it, other than having faction flavor. That, and I could argue that the Raptor already is kind of a battleship, just classified as a carrier.

I'm actually happy with the current approach to factions, which is to give each something that is unique to them. TER have their battleship, BOR have their light carrier, SPL have their battleship/carrier hybrid, and I wish TEL had an XL freighter, ARG an XL miner, and PAR could also get something that only they are really good at. I think this is the direction the devs should go into.

Because what's next, does TER also need a super-heavy carrier? Does ARG and SPL also need a fast L-sized carrier? Do we really want everyone to have everything? There is no need for everyone to have a copy of everything, that is imho redundant.

I want to believe those designing the ships aren't those working on some other tasks, and vice versa.
Which means people working on Boron station design, and the general feeling of their ships, didn't necessarily craft everything Kingdom's End had to offer, but I agree it could take a valuable time that's for sure.
The " what's next " thingy is really a fallacy at this point, you're expecting something that didn't happen and perhaps shouldn't from the basis of this debate.

Asgard is in the game for years already, it has the most powerful weapon lore-wise, however it's not far fetched to think an entire class of ships should be available elsewhere, that's it.

[flywlyx]

Some kind of arms race with the Asgard isn't really necessary IMO. It has its own very specific gimmick that lets it occasionally kill another ship of essentially any size—basically it's the sniper class of XL ship. This can easily co-exist with other kinds, as it already does with the Xenon I, which serves as more of a heavy close range brawler.

I still don’t understand why people are so fixated on this power creep assumption when no one here is asking for battleships as strong as the Asgard.

In other words, the release of the Enhanced base game Destroyers did miss a window of opportunity to differentiate them?

Btw, HOP does not use Carriers. Granted, it is not a "main faction" ... (perhaps TRI could take a "Battleship" into use, so all access to it would be locked behind a plot choice )

PAR works reasonably well with blitz tactics, but ARG and TEL have been quite disappointing in that regard.

The new Hyperion might give us insight into how Egosoft plans to implement these DLC ships—perhaps the decision will ultimately be up to the player.

In such a case why do we need XL battleships for all races then?
Firstly, Split already has the Raptor XL Battlecarrier so they are out.

In my view, battleships will be the easiest to sell. Carriers and drone carriers can be frustrating to fly, and while I’m not sure how many people would be interested in that kind of DLC, I personally wouldn’t be—unless it’s a light carrier for VIG. A unique destroyer could also work, but aside from the Springblossom, I don’t think any destroyer could realistically compete with the ARG Titan.

S/M ships would struggle to meaningfully impact a faction’s overall strategy, and I really don’t want to see super fighters becoming a thing in the future.

[GCU Grey Area]

Again, please tell me how the hell do you attack a station with a Ray ? How this Destroyer is anything close to the Behemoth or the Rattlesnake, despite bearing the same class. ( Destroyer ! )

I just use several of them, albeit a few more than if I was using Behemoth or Rattlesnake, etc. In my current Boron-only game the business end of my demolition fleet consists of 14 Rays, in 2 groups of 7, which work their way around enemy stations in opposite directions. If I was playing with other destroyers I'd need fewer of them (typically 8-10) but the approach I use would be identical. If I recall correctly when I was playing as a Terran my demolition fleet consisted of 4x Osaka & 4x Syn. Did try adding a couple of Asgards to the fleet but they were so slow to manoeuvre into position that they'd generally only fire a couple of shots while the rest of the fleet did the bulk of the work. Found them too annoying to work with & ended up repurposing them as permanently docked turret batteries for my HQ instead. Rays however are my firm favourites for demolition work. Their main gun may be a bit on the weak side but their instant travel drive make them exceptionally swift to reposition as the demolition job progresses.

[LameFox]

I still don’t understand why people are so fixated on this power creep assumption when no one here is asking for battleships as strong as the Asgard.

tbh I suspect a lot of it is working backwards from "I don't want battleships". The idea that people will pour out of the woodwork to insist on Terran supremacy if other races develop a battleship seems pretty baseless given that Terrans have been a faction for ages and a lot of what they have isn't all that great. The big advantage they did have mostly lay in shields and now Boron are highly competitive there, so much so that Terrans no longer have the tankiest ships. Their fighters aren't great—even their own breakaway subfaction outdoes them there. This isn't to say nobody cares about the lore at all, and I do recall some threads over the years asking for Terrans to be stronger across the board (and not always baselessly IMO) but there wasn't that much support for it and Egosoft never did it, so frankly, I just don't think the arms race is a serious concern.

Also, a minor faction who fly around in ships made from literal scrap cobbled together a battleship that is probably the most powerful single ship in the game.


Likewise the lack-as-variety argument doesn't ever seem to come up with the huge majority of ship types, most of which are shared just fine without complaint. In the cases where those common ships fail to show up in a new faction it's not entirely uncommon to see people lament its absence. I think it's not particularly outlandish to assume that people just want more of the ship types they enjoy, whether that is a battleship or a fighter or a self-propelled landing pad.


One concern here that I see as valid is that if you don't like battleships, then yes, they represent effort spent on something you would not enjoy. That is pretty straightforward. I do however think it's a bit unrealistic to expect the devs won't sometimes work on ships you aren't interested in. Happens to me all the time, but I don't really care, because even if I don't fly it it's some extra variety to watch my fleet in combat with (and this is why I like to insist that new ships should actually be used by factions).

[Nanook]

I still don’t understand why people are so fixated on this power creep assumption when no one here is asking for battleships as strong as the Asgard.

Sure they are. That's exactly what most players who want them would expect. The Asgaard is a battleship and that's what some people want for the other factions. They aren't asking for battlecruisers.

tbh I suspect a lot of it is working backwards from "I don't want battleships". The idea that people will pour out of the woodwork to insist on Terran supremacy

It's not "people will pour out of the wordwork", it's that people want the lore to be consistent. Every other major faction suddenly possessing such ships without the Terrans responding goes against all the lore. Maybe in a future game set much further in the future, the other races could have the time and tech to build their own. But expecting them suddenly to possess battleships in X4 is lore-breaking, IMO.

[LameFox]

It's not "people will pour out of the wordwork", it's that people want the lore to be consistent. Every other major faction suddenly possessing such ships without the Terrans responding goes against all the lore. Maybe in a future game set much further in the future, the other races could have the time and tech to build their own. But expecting them suddenly to possess battleships in X4 is lore-breaking, IMO.

I mean sure, some people want that, but the lore/balance disparity is not new nor restricted to this particular class of ship. Even if it was, the Erlking already flies in the face of that, with RIP apparently making a battleship so advanced that nobody is able to replicate it. I'd further argue that both Split and Boron have essentially demonstrated the ability if not the willingness. If you can design a Raptor or a Shark you can put more guns and fewer fighter bays on it.

Also, if you look at the in-game description for the Asgard's spinal mount, it would seem to suggest that's the advanced technical aspect of it—and even then, it implies there was a concern that if the information got out it could be replicated.

All of that is to say that whatever external lore claims about Terran technical supremacy, it's already not borne out in the game, and not much ever came of that. A few people asked for Terrans to be stronger, and it didn't happen.

[Raptor34]

It's not "people will pour out of the wordwork", it's that people want the lore to be consistent. Every other major faction suddenly possessing such ships without the Terrans responding goes against all the lore. Maybe in a future game set much further in the future, the other races could have the time and tech to build their own. But expecting them suddenly to possess battleships in X4 is lore-breaking, IMO.

I mean sure, some people want that, but the lore/balance disparity is not new nor restricted to this particular class of ship. Even if it was, the Erlking already flies in the face of that, with RIP apparently making a battleship so advanced that nobody is able to replicate it. I'd further argue that both Split and Boron have essentially demonstrated the ability if not the willingness. If you can design a Raptor or a Shark you can put more guns and fewer fighter bays on it.

Also, if you look at the in-game description for the Asgard's spinal mount, it would seem to suggest that's the advanced technical aspect of it—and even then, it implies there was a concern that if the information got out it could be replicated.

All of that is to say that whatever external lore claims about Terran technical supremacy, it's already not borne out in the game, and not much ever came of that. A few people asked for Terrans to be stronger, and it didn't happen.

Erlking is trash anyway, in more ways than one. So is the rest of VIG, their heavy fighter being the best in the game anyone?
As for just stripping fighters out of the carrier and replacing them with guns... Yeah, that's a good idea. New designs of course, but the basic concept is sound.
Though again I wouldn't give it to all of them, Split already has a battlecarrier, and players already use it that way, do they need more?
ARG/TEL could use one, they are so vanilla after all, but PAR feels like they have a niche and should lean further into it as I previously suggested.

[LameFox]

To be clear I'm not suggesting Boron and Split should actually convert their carriers to battleships, I'm just saying that within the context of X4 the ability to make such a ship is already demonstrated not to be exclusive to Terrans. Other races' versions may not have a massive kill-anything gun on the front, but then neither does the I.

[capitalduty]

It's not "people will pour out of the wordwork", it's that people want the lore to be consistent. Every other major faction suddenly possessing such ships without the Terrans responding goes against all the lore. Maybe in a future game set much further in the future, the other races could have the time and tech to build their own. But expecting them suddenly to possess battleships in X4 is lore-breaking, IMO.

I mean sure, some people want that, but the lore/balance disparity is not new nor restricted to this particular class of ship. Even if it was, the Erlking already flies in the face of that, with RIP apparently making a battleship so advanced that nobody is able to replicate it. I'd further argue that both Split and Boron have essentially demonstrated the ability if not the willingness. If you can design a Raptor or a Shark you can put more guns and fewer fighter bays on it.

Also, if you look at the in-game description for the Asgard's spinal mount, it would seem to suggest that's the advanced technical aspect of it—and even then, it implies there was a concern that if the information got out it could be replicated.

All of that is to say that whatever external lore claims about Terran technical supremacy, it's already not borne out in the game, and not much ever came of that. A few people asked for Terrans to be stronger, and it didn't happen.

Erlking is trash anyway, in more ways than one. So is the rest of VIG, their heavy fighter being the best in the game anyone?
As for just stripping fighters out of the carrier and replacing them with guns... Yeah, that's a good idea. New designs of course, but the basic concept is sound.
Though again I wouldn't give it to all of them, Split already has a battlecarrier, and players already use it that way, do they need more?
ARG/TEL could use one, they are so vanilla after all, but PAR feels like they have a niche and should lean further into it as I previously suggested.

There is an important observation about why we should introduce a split faction battleship. All battle wreckages left during xenon and split wars includes big chunks of python battleships this is because its a main ship for their combat operations, second, in lore the split developed an improved version of it call Pethadoron that we got to enjoy at X3 Albion Prelude , another more pragmatic approach is that nowaday split faction cannot defend or attack effectively, that's one of the reasons its one of the most underwhelming factions even in late game scenarios, it cannot compete against Argon, Xenon and now Boron attacks, they urgently need a buff at least in lategame....for me the inclusion of a battleship should be the answer, specially after completing their plot or helping them get their economy back on track. This vessel should make this faction fight and win more sector and expand aggressively as innate to their faction.

While Raptor is a great battle carrier, it underperforms in its role as a key assault ship during sector incursions and war escalation, it gets mauled by AI easily. I have seen one argon behemoths destroyer taking it out quite easily. Yes in players hand I would say is a beast, but almost any ship directly controlled by player outperforms egosoft combat AI.

[jlehtone]

I still don’t understand why people are so fixated on this power creep assumption when no one here is asking for battleships as strong as the Asgard.

Lets kill that statistics. While I don't want battleships for factions and definitely not for the player, adding more battleships for the Xenon is something that I can happily ask for. Not just more Is, but also something to outrange even the Asgards.

---

Is Asgard even a "battleship"? Isn't it just an oversized Elite? One gun on the nose, fixed. If we harken back to the Xbtf-X3 days of "big powerful ships", there were no fixed frontal guns, just good turret coverage. That was awesome.

If we go for naval ships (where submarines and motor torpedo boats had "fixed hardpoints"), the BB had armoured core, unpenetrable by lesser weapons. (Last of them had cruise missiles too?) These ships went distinct when a single, "tiny", airplane got the power to wipe them out.

What does the "XL-sized military ship" supposedly have?

a minor faction who fly around in ships made from literal scrap cobbled together a battleship that is probably the most powerful single ship in the game.

Only such minor faction is the player.

I mean sure, some people want that, but the lore/balance disparity is not new nor restricted to this particular class of ship. Even if it was, the Erlking already flies in the face of that, with RIP apparently making a battleship so advanced that nobody is able to replicate it.

Erlking, X-Shuttle, Hyperion. These are clearly all "for the player" ships. Rather than "lore", I'd call the "backstories" an excuse to hand out the candy and cheese. Most of them follow Tolkien's "long lost art" of crafting rings/blades/whatever by "somebody". (Ok, don't know yet how Hype will be sold.)

Is it good design to give player toys that the NPC do not have or use?

[LameFox]

a minor faction who fly around in ships made from literal scrap cobbled together a battleship that is probably the most powerful single ship in the game.

Only such minor faction is the player.

Erlking was designed/built by RIP and confiscated by VIG according to lore, we just steal it and apply their blueprints.

I mean sure, some people want that, but the lore/balance disparity is not new nor restricted to this particular class of ship. Even if it was, the Erlking already flies in the face of that, with RIP apparently making a battleship so advanced that nobody is able to replicate it.

Erlking, X-Shuttle, Hyperion. These are clearly all "for the player" ships. Rather than "lore", I'd call the "backstories" an excuse to hand out the candy and cheese. Most of them follow Tolkien's "long lost art" of crafting rings/blades/whatever by "somebody". (Ok, don't know yet how Hype will be sold.)

How is a backstory not part of the lore? Maybe it's an excuse to do something but frankly, so is most lore. It gets written and re-written to justify what gets put in games all the time.

Is it good design to give player toys that the NPC do not have or use?

I am not a fan of it in most cases personally, but, it sure seems like they like to do it.

[jlehtone]

a minor faction who fly around in ships made from literal scrap cobbled together a battleship that is probably the most powerful single ship in the game.

Only such minor faction is the player.

Erlking was designed/built by RIP and confiscated by VIG according to lore, we just steal it and apply their blueprints.

True, but neither RIP not VIG does use the ship. They do not "fly around" with. It would be different, if we could see Erlking in action.

We could as we claim that the Erlking did drop from a lorry, without stating whose lorry it was.

[flywlyx]

tbh I suspect a lot of it is working backwards from "I don't want battleships". The idea that people will pour out of the woodwork to insist on Terran supremacy if other races develop a battleship seems pretty baseless given that Terrans have been a faction for ages and a lot of what they have isn't all that great. The big advantage they did have mostly lay in shields and now Boron are highly competitive there, so much so that Terrans no longer have the tankiest ships. Their fighters aren't great—even their own breakaway subfaction outdoes them there. This isn't to say nobody cares about the lore at all, and I do recall some threads over the years asking for Terrans to be stronger across the board (and not always baselessly IMO) but there wasn't that much support for it and Egosoft never did it, so frankly, I just don't think the arms race is a serious concern.
...
One concern here that I see as valid is that if you don't like battleships, then yes, they represent effort spent on something you would not enjoy. That is pretty straightforward. I do however think it's a bit unrealistic to expect the devs won't sometimes work on ships you aren't interested in. Happens to me all the time, but I don't really care, because even if I don't fly it it's some extra variety to watch my fleet in combat with (and this is why I like to insist that new ships should actually be used by factions).

TER has the best S-class weapons, with the Meson Stream being a standout. A Gladius equipped with four Meson Streams can one-shot any S-class fighter in the game. The recent update adding gimbals to Meson Streams makes this S-class death beam even more deadly. Saying they don’t have one of the best fighters in the game is simply unfair.

The idea that TER doesn’t have supremacy is simply too biased. They have the best weapons, shields, and engines. Complaining that other factions having just one comparable component would undermine their dominance is unfair. There’s no reason to compromise for such an unbalanced perspective.

Even if players don’t want to build them, battleships are still the best damage sponges in the game. Compared to other options, battleships are probably the most performance-friendly solution, as each faction only gets one or two additional ships.

Sure they are. That's exactly what most players who want them would expect. The Asgaard is a battleship and that's what some people want for the other factions. They aren't asking for battlecruisers.

If you look at the Wikipedia of battlecruiser, you will find

By the end of the war, capital ship design had developed, with battleships becoming faster and battlecruisers becoming more heavily armoured, blurring the distinction between a battlecruiser and a fast battleship.

The USN never adopted a battlecruiser classification because it simply didn’t make sense. The Admiral-class battlecruiser had thicker armor than the New York-class battleship, making it impossible to clearly distinguish between battlecruisers and battleships.

Let’s face the facts: the Yamato is a battleship, and the New York is also a battleship. Nothing would stop the Yamato from one-shotting the New York, yet both are still classified as battleships.

If you can find someone who truly hates battleships that are weaker than the Asgard, I’d love to see an example because I haven’t seen anyone here with that mindset. Since you claim that most players want battleships share that mindset, let’s create a poll on the forum and see how many actually agree with you.

Lets kill that statistics. While I don't want battleships for factions and definitely not for the player, adding more battleships for the Xenon is something that I can happily ask for. Not just more Is, but also something to outrange even the Asgards.

---

Is Asgard even a "battleship"? Isn't it just an oversized Elite? One gun on the nose, fixed. If we harken back to the Xbtf-X3 days of "big powerful ships", there were no fixed frontal guns, just good turret coverage. That was awesome.

If we go for naval ships (where submarines and motor torpedo boats had "fixed hardpoints"), the BB had armoured core, unpenetrable by lesser weapons. (Last of them had cruise missiles too?) These ships went distinct when a single, "tiny", airplane got the power to wipe them out.

What does the "XL-sized military ship" supposedly have?

I'm not sure where you got the idea that a single airplane could wipe out battleships. In reality, it took 384 fighters and two hours to sink the battleship Yamato, which endured 12 bomb hits and seven torpedo hits before going down.
Battleships became extinct primarily because they were too expensive—just like in X4. Nothing beats a fighter swarm, which is realistic, but not exactly fun.
For my defination of the battleship, I will just reference my previous comment here:

In my view, the battleship should be the cornerstone of the faction's tactics. For instance, since Asgard has the Death Beam, other TER ships should focus on protecting it during its cooldown by specializing in anti-air and anti-surface capabilities.

If I were to design a battleship for SPL, aside from its usual traits of high hull durability, low shields, high speed, and short range, its main weapon should have a unique effect that drains the target’s shield or hull while simultaneously restoring its own. This would allow it to absorb more damage, creating a frontline presence that enables its subordinates to close in on enemies more safely.

While fully realizing this concept would require significant AI improvements, even without them, it would still introduce diverse combat styles and encourage players to experiment with different strategies.

[Thomas2052]

Is it good design to give player toys that the NPC do not have or use?

True, but neither RIP not VIG does use the ship. They do not "fly around" with. It would be different, if we could see Erlking in action.

That could be good - giving some of the player exclusive goodies to the ai.

Ships that are fun to fly should be fun to fight, right?

Would be interesting to see VIG kitted out with some Erlkings.

Maybe the Quettanaughts should field the Cutlass, Sapporo and X-shuttle (plus the M that escapes me right now).

I would welcome the new Hyperion being fielded by the ai as well - I have a vague memory of a Paranid ship in x2 that was only capturable from the ai, and that made it rather coveted.

Have I missed any?

Regards