Cutlass and Odachi still missing MK2+ weapons, engines and shields

[Caedes91]

The Cutlass is still missing MK2 and higher shields and engines as well as weapons.

Please add them in the the next update. Same goes for the Odachi, though it has up to Mk3 shields at least.

[Alan Phipps]

In previous threads on this topic, at least two different devs stated that this was as intended. These ones are, after all, old relic ships that have been 'rediscovered' and considered as collectors' trophies and little more and so have restricted blueprints and upgrades.

[Caedes91]

...old relic ships that have been 'rediscovered' and considered as collectors' trophies and little more and so have restricted blueprints and upgrades.

Of course, this explains why I can apply modern day ship mods to them.

But seriously: Any chance of changing this stance? I mean, should'nt be too much work to just add more icons better stats. Due to the new ship design philosphy, you don't have to make new models for surface parts anymore.

I have the complete blueprints of some last gen ships. They get built in my own shipyards, all the way from the power core down to the last screw. Shipyards that also have the ability to pop out freaking Asgards and carriers by the way. So why can't I deviate from these "old" blueprints to customize or improve existing hardpoints on ships, that -again- I myself build completely from scratch? Even if they are "old models". In the real world, exisiting frames get retrofitted or upgraded all the time. So why not here?
Instead of always inventing reasons for limitations and restrictions, why do the devs then not just replace them with new lore/excuses like: "Ship-schematics, based on rediscovered blueprints of old relic ships, that have now been reworked and updated to fit modern day standards and equipment as well as optimized for mass production by the genius scientist, Boso Ta" or something like that.

Such a waste. Create some of the only few good looking ship models in your entire history ever, then restrict them with arbitrary reasons that do not enhance the gameplay experience in any way.
I don't care about the lore, however I like the hull design, but you won't let me customize it. In some cases even not allowing to build more than one for no reason. This trend has been ongoing for years now, since Tides of Avarice DLC to be precise. And I hate it. Astrid, Cutlass, Odachi, Sapporo, the new Xenon ships or the X-shuttle. All of them wasted.

Is ship modularity and customization or the sandbox experience just not worth anything to Egosoft anymore?

[vvvvvvvv]

But seriously: I have the complete blueprints of some last gen ships. They get built in my own shipyards, all the way from the power core down to the last screw. Shipyards that also have the ability to pop out freaking Asgards and carriers by the way. So why can't I deviate

One could handwave this away, by comparing a shipyard with a 3d printer. You pop in a file, it outputs the result. However, to DESIGN things to print, you need another tool and different software. And in the game you do not have ability to design ships. Player can't even design a paintjob. Apparently it is a lost art.

Not a perfect explanation, but better than nothing.

Personally I would be very happy if there was some sort of compatibility connectors for all the new guns. Or converted guns that could be installed onto new models. Imagine Sable with split engines, terran shield and Argon Bolt Repeaters. It doesn't have to be pretty, and could look like the gun being awkwardly attached with blue duct tape.

[Pejot]

Why would they add better stuff for those ships? They arre historical ones and already better then most others in case of stats. Cutlass has better speed, dps and heat management then Kukri that has more weapons. Not even mentioning odachi that is basically heavy fighters in M class. On top of that player is the only one that can have those so another advantage over AI.

Mos of the ships are already terribly unbalanced so You have 1-2 choices in each class. Don't need another OP ship that would take the spot.

[vvvvvvvv]

Why would they add better stuff for those ships? They arre historical ones and already better then most others in case of stats. Cutlass has better speed, dps and heat management then Kukri that has more weapons. Not even mentioning odachi that is basically heavy fighters in M class. On top of that player is the only one that can have those so another advantage over AI.

Mos of the ships are already terribly unbalanced so You have 1-2 choices in each class. Don't need another OP ship that would take the spot.

Mixing and matching stuff and making "builds" is part of a the fun for many people. Having more options and more combinations is good. See what Elite did with it.

[blackphoenixx]

Why would they add better stuff for those ships? They arre historical ones and already better then most others in case of stats. Cutlass has better speed, dps and heat management then Kukri that has more weapons. Not even mentioning odachi that is basically heavy fighters in M class. On top of that player is the only one that can have those so another advantage over AI.

Mos of the ships are already terribly unbalanced so You have 1-2 choices in each class. Don't need another OP ship that would take the spot.

Pretty much this. The S EM gun is already at least on par with Mk2 proton barrage in terms of anti-fighter performance, it doesn't need an even better version.
And the M EM Cannon and HEPT are similarly powerful.

[jlehtone]

... already better then most others in case of stats

Pretty much this. The S EM gun is already at least on par with Mk2 proton barrage in terms of anti-fighter performance, it doesn't need an even better version.

Mixing and matching stuff and making "builds" is part of a the fun for many people.

In other words, there is no need to make OP more OP, but adding option to make less efficient "builds" with these chassis would add fun (for some players)?

[Pejot]

... already better then most others in case of stats

Pretty much this. The S EM gun is already at least on par with Mk2 proton barrage in terms of anti-fighter performance, it doesn't need an even better version.

Mixing and matching stuff and making "builds" is part of a the fun for many people.

In other words, there is no need to make OP more OP, but adding option to make less efficient "builds" with these chassis would add fun (for some players)?

Looking at what original post asks for it's exactly about making OP more OP not diverse.

[mr.WHO]

In previous threads on this topic, at least two different devs stated that this was as intended. These ones are, after all, old relic ships that have been 'rediscovered' and considered as collectors' trophies and little more and so have restricted blueprints and upgrades.

OK, but still doesn't make sence that later on, mk.2/3 shields have been added to Odachi, but not to Cutlass (in open world gameplay).

[Raptor34]

I'm not seeing any numbers here. And the against party is saying they are already better anyway so...
Here's a tip to Egosoft, next time you do this, make the Mk.3 the current Mk.1. Then introduce Mk.1 and 2 which are that but worse. You'll get less complaints that way. No need new art either, or just something light and simple. After all the sport ships that comes with Timelines don't even have art for their equipment.

[vvvvvvvv]

In other words, there is no need to make OP more OP, but adding option to make less efficient "builds" with these chassis would add fun (for some players)?

"OP" is a matter of a viewpoint and a matter of opinion. Why would it even matter if something is "OP"? It is single player title.

Ideally a game would want a system where there's a couple trillion of combination of gear, an you feel like there's a way to beat the system or reach some sort of perfection, but for every thing thing you try there's new hidden detail that emerges.

This is done fairly well in Elite, except that there are few edge cases where you can accidentally make ship completely invincible through coeffecients glitching. Swappable gears for slots, engineering on top, hidden formula for jump rnge, and it all costs money. That results on insane amount of hours spent on a perfect loadout.

X4 kinda does it partially with mods and turrets. There are a lot of turret types which give impression of being different. So to increase replayability you'd want to allow installing everything on everything. The most interesting gear to be allowed on other ships would be Boron one. Imagine Xenon ships with Paranid Engine, Boron turrets and Terran shield. Another possibility is adding more mod combinations.

This is an opinion.

[Caedes91]

"OP" is a matter of a viewpoint and a matter of opinion. Why would it even matter if something is "OP"? It is single player title.

Exactly. I will never understand the obsession of some players needing to always validate themselves by overcoming some sort of made up challenge. As if these "achievements" mean anything other than earning a pat on your shoulder, from yourself.

This in itself wouldn't be an issue, however wanting impose their idea of fun onto others is.

And for some reason, the balance team chooses to adhere to the 1% of "top" players.
The devs should just offer the player complete freedom and give them them their agency back.
It's a freaking SINGLEPLAYER SANBOX GAME. Nobody, not some meta or sorts, is forcing you to use things you feel are "OP"
Just exercise self control and limit yourself as you see fit then. Others, who like to build them in any number and truly customize their ships into their own, should have the ability to do so.
Simple concept, everybody wins.

You know like in the past, where modularity for ships, was a selling point of this game.
And especially in regards to ships that are paywalled. Unbelievable, paying real money for ships that are restricted to this extent.

[jlehtone]

This is done fairly well in Elite, except that there are few edge cases where you can accidentally make ship completely invincible through coeffecients glitching.

It is about four decades since I did play Elite. Cannot recall the details. The "coeffecients" sounds useful. Physics.

The devs should just offer the player complete freedom and give them them their agency back.

Yes, all the way. Mass, thrust, inertia, gigawatts, all the physics. No "base values", everything computed from the features of the components.

Your faction uses USB-C for connecting components. Alien chassis has only RS232. No problem, you (Boso, for a billion and some white crystals) invent adapter to hook your gun on it. It will add weight and eat some power, but will get the job done.


PS. How can one "tune" solid, face-hardened armor plate into nanotubes without essentially replacing all the plates, the entire chassis of the ship? Smells like replicator/nanobot technology. That never ends well in scifi. Anyway, if you can "build" a ship from nanotubes, then you should be able to build a ship from nanotubes ...

[vvvvvvvv]

It is about four decades since I did play Elite. Cannot recall the details. The "coeffecients" sounds useful. Physics.

I'm talking about Elite Dangerous. Coefficients are not physics.

Here's a very short overview. This is a streamlined configuration of a single Elite Dangerous ship, on one page. From coriolis, fan-made site. This is a... luxury yacht, a pale imitation of astrid, because you can't walk around.


Core Internal: Items that must be always present. Powerplant, life support, your armor
Optional Internal: Slots you can freely. If you remove everything you won't have even a cargo hold.
Hardpoints: Your weapons
Utility Mounts: Optional external tools that are not weapons. Shield boosters.

Above you can see ship resistances, hitpoints, etc. Ship does not auto repair, there's repair module, but it has mass and takes a slot. If your engines are blown up, you'll just spin uncontrollably in the void, until you perform "emergency repair" which will cannibalize half your modules. Weapons that overheat, overheat often, going above powerplant capacity shuts everything down, and stuffing ship with every cool weapon and every highest grade module you can get easily will easily go above the maximum power. Things also radiate heat with overheats your ship, heat makes you easier to detect if your ship overheats above 100C (and probably boil the pilot alive), it'll start losing integrity, etc, etc.

So, with that dolphin. I can turn it into a people hauler. Stuff every internal slot with cabins (for people I'll never see). Or I can install a FSD Booster there and turn it into a suboptimal explorer. I can turn it into a flying indestructible brick with more HP than stock military "L" ship. For example, people who like exploration used to buy an Anaconda (large powerful vessel), then they'd remove everything from it, install weakest power plant, weakest thruster, most powerful engine, and FSD Booster, and get maximum jump range. Because mass of installed stuff affects jump range, but the formula is unknown. So if you want to jump far, you want to have less mass, but then you'd get a fragile ship.

That's the point of such systems. There are insane number of combinations to try, you get a feeling you might be onto something, and some people really love making those "builds".

The system as is already allows plenty of customization, on top of that weapons, utilities, and all core components can be modded through engineers. Which is similar to X4 engine/shield/hull mods. Engineers are another time-wasting rabbit chase.

So.

The coefficients things I spoke of refers to situation where you, for example, collect specific equipment, engineer/mod it in certain way, that boosts your thermal resistance through the roof, and then it overflows. And that makes you immune to lasers. This glitch used to exist at some point, I'm not sure if they ever fixed it. "Pilot Reviews" channel spoke of it.

So, not physics.

[jlehtone]

Isn't thermal resistance, a counter to effect of laser, a "physical property"? The fact that you could overflow is with numerical (in)stability of the algorithm that models this property -- doing math with computer is less trivial than one can expect.

Compared to all those details and hence possibilities, the X4's Mk1 gun vs Mk2 gun is rather boring dps-price thing, isn't it?

[vvvvvvvv]

Isn't thermal resistance, a counter to effect of laser, a "physical property"? The fact that you could overflow is with numerical (in)stability of the algorithm that models this property -- doing math with computer is less trivial than one can expect.

Compared to all those details and hence possibilities, the X4's Mk1 gun vs Mk2 gun is rather boring dps-price thing, isn't it?

In real world thermal resistance does not make you immune to lasers by overflowing numerical value. Hence it is not physics.

Elite stat system does sound interesting on paper, but in reality it is largely a time-waster mechanic. Reasons:
* Upgrades are done by engineers.
* You have to do them in person. You can perform only one upgrade per engineers.
* You have to unlock engineer, by meeting t he condition.
* Then perform a mission chaing which is usually boring fetch quest, like ferrying 50 cargo of rare tea, from the a system that is 200 Ly away, and you'll have to do two trips, because the system only sell 21 tons at the time.
* Then you have to build up reputation with said engineers. Which can only be done by visiting engineer in person. By selling stuff to the station, giving out research data, etc. Or making engineers do upgrades you do not need.
* Then each upgrade has 5 tiers, requires materials, and ugprading from tier 3 to 4 requires several attempts at engineering.
* An attempt to mod equipment requires materials, which have to be collected.
* Unlike x4 you cannot get any of them back.

There are 25 ship engineers and 13 pilot suit engineers. Getting one to max relationship so you unlock level 5 upgrade can take hours. Then you can finally try this fun build idea you had only to find out it doesn't work.

The system, in practice acts as a red herring to make you distracted so you spend more time in the game and then maybe finally buy ARX(in-game currency), so you finally get a suite that does not look like a clown costume, or a paintjob.

Displaying ship name and number on the side costs arx, by the way. To unlock letters. There are several set of letters, you can pay for separately.

----

X4 could do more fun things with its modding system, loadouts and weapons. Allowing more mixing of weapons would be a good thing. Basically, ideally you should be able to install anything onto anything. I'd rather not have equivalent of ED system, because its main function seems to be artificially prolonging gameplay and padding content. That turns dealing with this into an unenjoyable chore.

P.S. The thing about "computing everything from base components" won't work in practice. It is dwarf fortress approach that takes eternity to make it work, and results in insane glitches. Example: "Swimming increases athletic value", that is correct. However, fish swim all the time. From that it follows that river carps become supreme athletes in the world. And so carps will jump out of rivers to wrestle dwarves into the water to eat them. ED overflow glitch is similar. Attempts at realism do not result in enjoyable experience, and a complicated system will result in complicated glitches people will of course find one way or another.

[MightyOdin]

so we cant make the odatchi and cutlass weapons without moding the game.

[LameFox]

so we cant make the odatchi and cutlass weapons without moding the game.

You buy the bps for the gear from terrans or argons afaik.

[MightyOdin]

so we cant make the odatchi and cutlass weapons without moding the game.

You buy the bps for the gear from terrans or argons afaik.

OH thanks you