When are we implementing the Boron ship landing system for other ships?

This forum is the ideal place for all discussion relating to X4. You will also find additional information from developers here.

Moderator: Moderators for English X Forum

Raptor34
Posts: 3549
Joined: Sat, 12. Jun 10, 04:43
x4

When are we implementing the Boron ship landing system for other ships?

Post by Raptor34 »

After witnessing, and still witnessing the farce that is my Elite Sport trying to land on a Tokyo, when are we finally rolling out the brand new system that comes with the Boron ships? After 7.0 and all these years, I think relying on the Artificial Intelligence to demonstrate some Intelligence is a fool's hope.
Imo some kind of landing script, where ships fly into a box of some sort and then it does a completely scripted landing would be the better option at this point, and would make carrier ops a pleasure instead of a pain to watch, or use.
At least that way players who do not have teleportation can make use of and see their carriers too.
Scoob
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu, 27. Feb 03, 22:28
x4

Re: When are we implementing the Boron ship landing system for other ships?

Post by Scoob »

You know, there was a time when I hoped that the then new "Boron way" of docking would be retro-fitted to other ships. However, I was marvelling last night how quickly and cleanly dozens of Fighters were docking at my Raptor - so the "old" way can work really well. Fighters docking at a Colossus though are a bit of a disaster, while my own Tokyo is pretty good - far better recalling fighters than I expected, far better than the Colossus for sure.

The issue with the Colossus seem to be when multiple Fighters return at once - like a returning Intercept Wing -and them clump around the Carrier, seemingly unsure where they should be waiting. Some are near clipping each other, some decide to be the opposite side of the ship, they're all over the place. A total disaster, if under fire. With the Raptor, I see two streams of fighters approaching from each side (port/starboard) of the docking area, they then perform a role and proceed down the slope. It's almost elegant how cleanly they dock. For me, the Tokyo was similar, if not quite as graceful, with ships seeming to organise better (vs. the Colossus) outside the entrance, before entering the ship.

I was exclusively using Colossus for Carriers - I have the BP - as their quick-launch ability is excellent for Intercept wings. Their major weakness is when those Wings return of course. With the Colossus, I usually have just ONE Intercept group active, with 12 ships. That's the regular setting, I set other groups to "Launched" as needed. However, even with just 12 ships returning, things get cluttered. With the Raptor on the other hand, I was deploying two groups of 20 Fighters in the intercept roles, and they were all returning at once, so very cleanly. It's night and day how much BETTER the Raptor's fighter docking control is.

So, I don't think the manual docking approach is inherently bad - the Raptor shows how elegant and efficient it can be - but it IS badly-implements on ships such as the Colossus.

With Egosoft looking at AI-related things, I hope how quickly and efficiently multiple ships can dock is something that's looked at. They totally nailed it with the Raptor, that ship is a true joy to use. I often stand on the M-Class Bay, where I can over look the Fighter Bay entrance observing the returning ships. The contrast between the two ships is vast. The Raptor was the newer ship, so perhaps it benefited from that when it comes to improved fighter docking. However, the Colossus is of course the Colossus E now - a refreshed ship - but it's fighter recall sucks. Deployment, excellent, docking is terribad.
Raptor34
Posts: 3549
Joined: Sat, 12. Jun 10, 04:43
x4

Re: When are we implementing the Boron ship landing system for other ships?

Post by Raptor34 »

I think it's one of those it depends on how the AI is feeling thing. I spent 5-10 minutes waiting for one (1) ship to dock on a Tokyo while not in combat and it spent the whole time just spazzing out. I stopped bothering then and teleported to my next destination since I just wanted to see it dock.
They really should just add scripted docking to well, everything imo. Rather than having each AI slowly path to the dock, just fly into a holding box and traffic control brings them in automatically. Not for the player of course, the player can land manually because they are intelligent.
Scoob
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu, 27. Feb 03, 22:28
x4

Re: When are we implementing the Boron ship landing system for other ships?

Post by Scoob »

I reckon you're right. I've certainly had my fair share of "what the hell are they doing?" moments when observing returning Fighters. Pretty much a staple at a Colossus for sure.

Once the script takes over, docking is generally quite smooth. With the Raptor, the script seems to kick in easily and cleanly and can handle multiple ships at once. The Colossus is just a mess by comparison. I am a little surprised you've observed such issues with a Tokyo, as they've definitely been one of the better ones for me, second only to the Raptor. Returning Fighters clump a bit near the entrance when many return at once, but the script seems to take over quite quickly.

These things are very variable though, I suspect it just takes a ship being slightly (or not so slightly) out of position and the script not triggering for it then to get stuck in a "get to the waypoint" state where it actually has to try to fly to a marker it's already missed due to reasons. Moving ships of course make things harder.

I would suggest that the Raptor seems to be THE example of Carriers done right when it comes to Fighter docking. I don't know what they've done different, but the channel ships fly down to dock, and the scripted manoeuvres to enter than channel cleanly, really seem to work well.

Wait for it, after posting all this, my Raptor's going to turn into a disaster area for returning ships... you just wait lol.
Raptor34
Posts: 3549
Joined: Sat, 12. Jun 10, 04:43
x4

Re: When are we implementing the Boron ship landing system for other ships?

Post by Raptor34 »

Do they even have a script? They always seem to be flying in manually.
When I say scripted I mean it should be clearly scripted. No jerking around, crashing into other ships or anything... Then again considering I've seen AI land my corvette while clipping through the landing pad when they are already clearly in the locked in scripted portion... Maybe I'm asking too much.
adeine
Posts: 1446
Joined: Thu, 31. Aug 17, 17:34
x4

Re: When are we implementing the Boron ship landing system for other ships?

Post by adeine »

In my experience how well ships do or don't dock is heavily related to the orientation of the target relative to the ecliptic. It seems like the AI tendency to align itself with and level out with it doesn't particularly mix well with trying to manoeuvre around obstacles at a distance or some angles.
Raptor34
Posts: 3549
Joined: Sat, 12. Jun 10, 04:43
x4

Re: When are we implementing the Boron ship landing system for other ships?

Post by Raptor34 »

adeine wrote: Sun, 24. Nov 24, 01:23 In my experience how well ships do or don't dock is heavily related to the orientation of the target relative to the ecliptic. It seems like the AI tendency to align itself with and level out with it doesn't particularly mix well with trying to manoeuvre around obstacles at a distance or some angles.
Interesting. This is something a scripted docking system would help with. Well, it'll help with a lot of things because it's scripted...
Scoob
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu, 27. Feb 03, 22:28
x4

Re: When are we implementing the Boron ship landing system for other ships?

Post by Scoob »

Raptor34 wrote: Sun, 24. Nov 24, 00:17 Do they even have a script? They always seem to be flying in manually.
When I say scripted I mean it should be clearly scripted. No jerking around, crashing into other ships or anything... Then again considering I've seen AI land my corvette while clipping through the landing pad when they are already clearly in the locked in scripted portion... Maybe I'm asking too much.
I assumed it was scripted once they hit a certain point purely because how cleanly and smoothly things go from that point. There is indeed no bumping or anything. Ships - I'm using Falcon Vanguards FYI - approach the docking entrance diagonally from the front of the ship. They then always do a roll-turn into the entrance "ramp" area. Each ship doing the exact same move. Be aware that these ships are almost colliding, but never actually do. I speculate that once the "script" takes over, they basically go no-clip mode with each other, making it look even smoother. That said, even their initial approach is better with no obvious clumping - that's with 40 Fighters all returning to dock at once remember. The fact that they do arrive and start to dock right away, certainly can't hurt things, less chance of things backing up - like they do with the Colossus. If it's NOT scripted, well, then I'm impressed that ships can actually navigate like that. Try a Raptor, if you are able, I've been thoroughly impressed by how cleanly returning Fighters dock. I build Raptors exclusively now, no more Colossus for me. The Raptor really does appear to be THE example of Fighter docking done right. I don't recall it being quite this good when I've had a Raptor in the past but, as mentioned, I usually go for the Colossus as my Carrier of choice.
adeine wrote: Sun, 24. Nov 24, 01:23 In my experience how well ships do or don't dock is heavily related to the orientation of the target relative to the ecliptic. It seems like the AI tendency to align itself with and level out with it doesn't particularly mix well with trying to manoeuvre around obstacles at a distance or some angles.
All my observations are on an AI-Controlled Carriers - so, the Colossus and the Raptor alike - so they will have oriented themselves to be level aligned to the ecliptic. They're also NOT moving, which obviously helps to. I basically park my Carriers in a location, have Fighters set to Intercept, Defend or Bombard based on their load-out. I have subordinate Destroyers using Position Defence. Keeping a Carrier stationary has always made Fighter docking cleaner. Though not that much cleaner on the Colossus, which always gets messy it seems.
Raptor34
Posts: 3549
Joined: Sat, 12. Jun 10, 04:43
x4

Re: When are we implementing the Boron ship landing system for other ships?

Post by Raptor34 »

Well, looking at it I realised the Colossus is just a vertical version of the Shark, with the ships needing to go down instead of from the sides.

But anyway, looking into this more, and by that I mean getting a new Shark for a garage instead of a Tokyo for the more M slots, I wonder if the issue is that these Sport ships just suck instead. I transferred them over and despite having a clear flight path, they decided that wobbling outside was more fun instead. The F I sent to dock at the same time had no issues. Incidentally when transferring over some M ships, the Astrid was another one which decided to just point their nose at the landing bay and just refused to dock... Perhaps there is something to these ships performance that just makes them docking iffier and that regular combat ships have no such issues.
Scoob
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu, 27. Feb 03, 22:28
x4

Re: When are we implementing the Boron ship landing system for other ships?

Post by Scoob »

I did a little more "testing" - aka, just playing the game - with the Raptor, and I remain really impressed by how cleanly ships are docking. This is a different Raptor, it has several Wings. Falcon Vanguards for Intercept Duty and Eclipse Vanguards for Bombard.

24 Falcons and 24 Eclipses are currently returning from a deployment - dozens of Fighters and a Xenon Capital destroyed, no losses (nice!) - AND the Raptor is currently rotating and moving forwards to go to a new location. Despite 48 ships coming in to dock and them having different flight characteristics, they all appear to be approaching smoothly before getting into (what we suspect is) the scripted park of their docking process and landing perfectly.

For me, watching the Raptor, it's the GOOD approach vector and positioning that's making the final docking part clean. Ship are approaching on the upper face of the Raptor, where the dock entrance is, they're approach from two sides and entering their own left / right docking channel to land. It's great. Contrast this with the Colossus, where ships approach from mostly the front-ish, but they might be above, below or level with the Colossus. They're not lining up nicely on the dock, like with the Raptor. Now, the Colossus doesn't have a docking tunnel like the Raptor of course, but is there any reason why it cannot have a virtual one? I.e. approaching ships queue to the left/right of the Colossus dock, before travelling down a "scripted" path to cleanly approach the eight S-Class Docks. From there, they can glide to the next free dock.

It's seems that for the Raptor, everything works in sync. Ships approach and enter an orderly twin queue at a certain point. They then travel at a certain speed to enter the docking tunnel. The time they take to traverse the tunnel allows for ships already on the Pads to be brought inside in ample time for a dock to be available for the next ship. It all looks so well choreographed.

I think that the dev or worked on the Raptors Docking paths should have a look at other ships. This doesn't stop additional ships gaining the Boron docking method of course, certain mods already utilise this on new ships, it's great. However, "regular" docking can work really well, and the Raptor is the perfect example of this. I've conducted lots of operations on Raptors this game, and I've not seen any obvious issues thus far.

Edit: And then the Raptor engaged it's travel drives... There was a brief wobble and some slight collisions between several of the docking ships, but, they recovered quickly and docked smoothly. Docking speed slowed down, as the remaining queued ships were now being "dragged" of course, by the Carrier, but they did still dock smoothly. Impressed.
Raptor34
Posts: 3549
Joined: Sat, 12. Jun 10, 04:43
x4

Re: When are we implementing the Boron ship landing system for other ships?

Post by Raptor34 »

Well, I also did further "testing" as I picked up more of the Timeline ships. And I wonder if it's just the sport ships that suck.
Even on a Shark, every single ****** sport ship takes forever to dock. I don't even know if they are still attempting because I just teleported out. They just kept jerking around above the docking bay.
Even the Cutlass and X-Shuttle felt a bit weird, but they docked in okay time. Odachi otoh jerked around a bit but docked okay-ish unlike that damned Astrid.
All with 5 star piloting pilots btw. I wonder whether the AI just couldn't handle it if ships goes above a certain speed/agility stat. Those ships were all modded with nanotubes and Slingshot.
User avatar
Duncaroos
Posts: 719
Joined: Wed, 4. Jan 12, 22:23
x4

Re: When are we implementing the Boron ship landing system for other ships?

Post by Duncaroos »

Scoob wrote: Sat, 23. Nov 24, 23:11 However, I was marvelling last night how quickly and cleanly dozens of Fighters were docking at my Raptor - so the "old" way can work really well.
Woah Woah Woah, hold on here. Everytime I look at my Raptor there's always issues and all S docks aren't being used to move ships into internal storage to make way for more ships.

Maybe this is a VRO problem, but I don't think Shuulo touched any AI scripts other than re-balancing ships, weapons, and equipment.

I am pulling my hair out as to how ineffective the Raptor is in my game with docking S ships. Way too slow; I had a fleet of destroyers go and bombard 2x Khaak hives spaced 3 sectors away, and that Raptor only just finished docking and moving back to its patrol.

Do you use subfleets for ships on your Raptor? I do - maybe that's my issue?
Playing X4+All_DLC on:
CPU: Ryzen 5 5600X; RAM: 4x8GB DDR4 3200MHz; GPU: GTX 1070 8GB, Driver v536.23, DirectX 12.0; OS: Win10 Home 22H2 (19045.4780); Monitor: Single Acer S232HL 1920x1080

Duncaroo's Empire Logistics Tool (v0.23 Beta) - {{Vanilla Economy - Direct link}} {{Economy Overhaul Mod Version - Direct link}}
Raptor34
Posts: 3549
Joined: Sat, 12. Jun 10, 04:43
x4

Re: When are we implementing the Boron ship landing system for other ships?

Post by Raptor34 »

Scoob wrote: Tue, 26. Nov 24, 23:21 For me, watching the Raptor, it's the GOOD approach vector and positioning that's making the final docking part clean. Ship are approaching on the upper face of the Raptor, where the dock entrance is, they're approach from two sides and entering their own left / right docking channel to land. It's great. Contrast this with the Colossus, where ships approach from mostly the front-ish, but they might be above, below or level with the Colossus. They're not lining up nicely on the dock, like with the Raptor. Now, the Colossus doesn't have a docking tunnel like the Raptor of course, but is there any reason why it cannot have a virtual one? I.e. approaching ships queue to the left/right of the Colossus dock, before travelling down a "scripted" path to cleanly approach the eight S-Class Docks. From there, they can glide to the next free dock.
This. That's precisely what I mean by scripted docking. Just have the ships fly into a box and traffic control automatically brings them in. It makes more sense too while reducing the burden on the AI.
Definitely would look way better than letting the AI handle everything.
Scoob
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu, 27. Feb 03, 22:28
x4

Re: When are we implementing the Boron ship landing system for other ships?

Post by Scoob »

Duncaroos wrote: Wed, 27. Nov 24, 01:10 Woah Woah Woah, hold on here. Everytime I look at my Raptor there's always issues and all S docks aren't being used to move ships into internal storage to make way for more ships.

Maybe this is a VRO problem, but I don't think Shuulo touched any AI scripts other than re-balancing ships, weapons, and equipment.

I am pulling my hair out as to how ineffective the Raptor is in my game with docking S ships. Way too slow; I had a fleet of destroyers go and bombard 2x Khaak hives spaced 3 sectors away, and that Raptor only just finished docking and moving back to its patrol.

Do you use subfleets for ships on your Raptor? I do - maybe that's my issue?
I have seen issues in the past, on the Colossus specifically, where it randomly seems to stop using some of the eight S-Class Docks for returning fighters. I.e. fighters will return, but they will ALL go for the same couple of docks. I haven't seen that recently. I think I did a bug report on it some time back, it's an issue that appears in a 100% vanilla game.

I'm actually running a VRO game currently. As far as I'm aware, the scripts that control docking are totally vanilla these days, perhaps I'm wrong. I seem to recall that as some point in the past VRO did address some docking issue, but that fix was removed when vanilla started getting it right. Memory is fuzzy, only Shuulo would be able to 100% confirm that.

I generally just have the Raptor, with the first four groups being Fighters set to Intercept (Falcon Vanguards) and the next two groups set to Bombard (Eclipse Vanguards) and potentially some destroyers too. Nothing special. I'm on one of my Raptors as I type this... Fighter Group size will usually be between 12 and 20, though I'd traditionally match group size to the number of docks.

HOWEVER. I just added some kukri to reinforce the Raptor - I'm operating in TER space, cut off from my Shipyards - so I ordered 20 locally. They've come in to dock - the Raptor is parked - and their docking really isn't that clean. There are many factors at play here though, they're approaching having come from a dock - they tend to be in a line when doing so - so have approached more spaced-out, rather than clumped. They do seem to "snap" into a scripted movement sequence at a certain point though - they do a roll and turn into the docking channel like other ships. There is more going on here though, the Raptor was attacked, there's a battle going on close-by, so there are several factors at play.

I'll observe how the Kukri's return when they're deployed as part of an Intercept group.
Raptor34 wrote: Wed, 27. Nov 24, 01:32 This. That's precisely what I mean by scripted docking. Just have the ships fly into a box and traffic control automatically brings them in. It makes more sense too while reducing the burden on the AI.
Definitely would look way better than letting the AI handle everything.
Yeah, I assumed it was scripted rather than AI due to how smooth it was consistently being. Not Boron dock scripting, that's a more jarring drag to the pad thing. Those Kukri's, mentioned above, were a bit more messy, but it's not comparing like for like. Ship still docked fine though, but it wasn't quite such an orderly approach. I mean, after an Intercept deployment the ships are all quite close together, but still dock well. The Kukri's are a bit more spaced out, so it looks less organised, but still worked.
LameFox
Posts: 3645
Joined: Tue, 22. Oct 13, 15:26
x4

Re: When are we implementing the Boron ship landing system for other ships?

Post by LameFox »

My experience with carriers is that, these days, the docking is more functional than it used to be. However, it is UGLY to the extreme. Sitting in my Tokyo's flight deck while its interceptors come and go has them hitting each other and the ship constantly. They are bouncing off the walls, they are getting rammed into by the carrier itself as it goes about its orders. Sometimes they launch while it's in travel drive and not all of them make it out—some get smacked into the back of the bay and only later fall out with half their shields taken off.

They do still work, and that's a step up from what it used to be. I guess the game at some point gets tired of their natural pathfinding and just kind of shuffles them to the pad. But I'd much rather it was more direct and orderly like the newer Boron ships do it, even if the pad doesn't become some hologram out the side of the ship (this should have been part of the HUD for the landing fighter IMO). Especially for launching I wish it would just pick them up and put them elsewhere. Maybe not directly in the path of the ship, though, because they do launch while it's in motion and that whole forward launch thing seems like a design flaw in light of that.
***modified***
S!rAssassin
Posts: 440
Joined: Sat, 7. Aug 10, 10:31

Re: When are we implementing the Boron ship landing system for other ships?

Post by S!rAssassin »

If we get Hyperion as X-mas DLC, bet on it's will have two S-docks with Boron landing mechanics.
flywlyx
Posts: 1597
Joined: Sat, 15. May 21, 03:45
x4

Re: When are we implementing the Boron ship landing system for other ships?

Post by flywlyx »

LameFox wrote: Fri, 29. Nov 24, 02:56 They do still work, and that's a step up from what it used to be. I guess the game at some point gets tired of their natural pathfinding and just kind of shuffles them to the pad. But I'd much rather it was more direct and orderly like the newer Boron ships do it, even if the pad doesn't become some hologram out the side of the ship (this should have been part of the HUD for the landing fighter IMO). Especially for launching I wish it would just pick them up and put them elsewhere. Maybe not directly in the path of the ship, though, because they do launch while it's in motion and that whole forward launch thing seems like a design flaw in light of that.
I really don't understand, why this kind of docking(https://youtu.be/inj6nNZ2VZ8?si=zcsln_LRRvssS8Me&t=374) is still not possible in X4.
But anyway, I am using Carrier warp to skip this hassle.

Return to “X4: Foundations”