Why don't xenons have missiles?

[LameFox]

Is it possible you have accidentally loaded that save at some point while VRO or similar was still on? Maybe that would have added some things to it but in a way that is not readily noticeable, since the save would already be "modified" because it is creative, and (IIRC) VRO requires a new game to work properly so you wouldn't see all of it.

[JasonX2000]

He just said its a custom start. He did not say it was creative. Could also be a budgeted start.

[LameFox]

He just said its a custom start. He did not say it was creative. Could also be a budgeted start.

You can't remove highways in budgeted starts AFAIK.

[BitByte]

I wonder which Xenon ship is even capable shoot missiles? So far the ones what I have seen don't contain such weapons / turrets.
Didn't happen in long term game (started 3.00 and been upgraded to 7.10hf3) nor recent start (7.10HF2 upgraded to HF3). I don't own Timelines so if that is the key...

[JasonX2000]

I wonder which Xenon ship is even capable shoot missiles? So far the ones what I have seen don't contain such weapons / turrets.
Didn't happen in long term game (started 3.00 and been upgraded to 7.10hf3) nor recent start (7.10HF2 upgraded to HF3). I don't own Timelines so if that is the key...

There where no Xenon turrets/weapons capable of missiles since 1.0 and in timelines they still don't have missle turrets/starters.
IMHO Scoop has or had some mod running in the background he is not aware of.

He just said its a custom start. He did not say it was creative. Could also be a budgeted start.

You can't remove highways in budgeted starts AFAIK.

And since he uses a custom creative start, there could be a problem seeing a running mod in the background because its flagged as modded from the beginning.
Also if there was a mod running once for a short time not noticed, the xenon build ships with rocket launchers/turrets and if you remove the mod, they still have them and maybe are able to use them. Even if the mod does not exist anymore. And if the xenon build 200 of that loadouts, you have 200 xenon ships flying around your space for as long as the get shot down. So even after 30-100hrs you still could meet xenon with rocket launchers.
So the game is no longer considered vanilla even without running mods after disabling the accidently running mod.

I once made a mod that made you able to research Xenon BP and build Xenon weapons and ships. After i removed the mod, the ships and weapons still where present.

[Scoob]

To be clear, the game in question is 100% vanilla. No modified files have ever been present. I also clear out the saves folder and back them up. As the instance has never had mods, I'd be unable to load any of my modded saves. I have the GoG version of the game, so creating entirely separate instances is trivial. I used that game for bug reporting during Betas, and the saves have been accepted as vanilla by the devs themselves. The only reason for the "Modified" tag is due to my use of the non-budgeted custom start, which invaluable for creating test cases.

I cannot explain why others don't see Xenon using missiles, I just know that in my vanilla game they did. With a VRO-modded game, they of course go nuts, but we're not talking modded game here.

To be clear, I maintain a 100% vanilla game instance managed by GoG Galaxy at all times. I then take that and create a NEW folder for the game I actually play. Currently, I have several instances; the aforementioned 100% vanilla game, a regular VRO + other mods game, a Star Wars Interworlds game and, my current game which is based around the Reemergence Mod.

I don't know if I still have the saves from Beta testing, but I've not played that game since the last Beta. If I get bored, I might see if I can dig it up, and load it in that vanilla instance.

You know, I wasn't making this up. Xenon were using missiles and I thought nothing of it at the time. One of the key points of my original observation was linked to a BUG I'd been investigating. Subordinate ships were not returning to a player-owned Equipment Dock (S/M Ship Maintenance Bay) for repair and re-arm. This led to them running out of Countermeasures and subsequently falling to Xenon missiles. I watched ships get blown up. This was a while ago now and the bug I was originally investigating has long been fixed.

[Falcrack]

A much more intriguing is why Xenon do drop ammo crates on destruction?

Because they have missile perhaps? They're certainly firing missiles in my game and, as mentioned, it's totally vanilla, started in v7.0 Beta 1, continued in (currently) v7.1 Beta 4.

I think you are simply mistaken in your observation.

[Scoob]

I think you are simply mistaken in your observation.

No. Xenon could clearly be seen using missile against my ships. Game was 100% vanilla, and I used saves from it in several bug reports. Game install instance never had mods present.

Look, this is old news now. If indeed Xenon are intended to NOT use missiles - which is a little silly really - then they WERE doing so in that specific Beta version of the game. Perhaps it was an unintended "feature" on one or more of the new Xenon ships, that was subsequently changed. Regardless though, at the time there were Xenon ships that used missiles.

[jlehtone]

If you say: "did happen in beta", that does not invalidate statement: "does not happen in any officially released version of the game".

[BitByte]

I think you are simply mistaken in your observation.

No. Xenon could clearly be seen using missile against my ships. Game was 100% vanilla, and I used saves from it in several bug reports. Game install instance never had mods present.

Look, this is old news now. If indeed Xenon are intended to NOT use missiles - which is a little silly really - then they WERE doing so in that specific Beta version of the game. Perhaps it was an unintended "feature" on one or more of the new Xenon ships, that was subsequently changed. Regardless though, at the time there were Xenon ships that used missiles.

If you have clearly seen Xenon using missiles against your ships then you should be able to tell what ship type it was?
And if you still have beta then you should be able to reproduce the scenario and tell what weapon they are using in that specific ship.

Other whom could confirm this are devs if it was even possible during the beta there was Xenon ships equipped with missiles.
On the other hand I think in this forum there's multiple users whom have played same beta as you and would expect they could also say something about that.

[Scoob]

If you have clearly seen Xenon using missiles against your ships then you should be able to tell what ship type it was?
And if you still have beta then you should be able to reproduce the scenario and tell what weapon they are using in that specific ship.

Other whom could confirm this are devs if it was even possible during the beta there was Xenon ships equipped with missiles.
On the other hand I think in this forum there's multiple users whom have played same beta as you and would expect they could also say something about that.

No, I wasn't paying attention to exactly which Xenon ship was firing missiles. I wasn't interested in that at all. The fact that my ships were countering with Flares until they run out and didn't return for repair and rearm was the bug I was investigating and providing feedback and saves for at the time.

Do xenon still use missiles in the current vanilla game version? I don't know and I really don't care. They WERE using missiles in that Beta version though, why would I remark on it if they weren't? I'm not here to scam people or mislead in any way, I was simply reporting a bug during a Beta and someone though it interesting that Xenon were using missiles in my game - and clearly so - and referred me to this thread. My take was basically, new ships, new rules, perhaps it was the newly-added Xenon ships firing missiles.

I'm running a modded game currently, where Xenon missile use is the norm. The game is far better for it. Perhaps Egosoft experimented with making Xenon use missiles, perhaps it was unintended, perhaps they reversed the choice because people complained. I don't know, ask Egosoft why Xenon were capable of using missiles in that Beta.

I have got some backup saves from later v7.1 beta testing. It's the same game continued, unless I overwrote it with another test case. However, loading that proves nothing if something's been changed since. I might load it out of interest. It's possible a few missile-using Xenon are still around, spawned earlier during the v7.0 beta. What if there are though? What if anyone can load it and clearly see some older Xenon firing missiles? Doesn't change anything if Egosoft ended up removing Xenon missile use again.

[JasonX2000]

I'm running a modded game currently, where Xenon missile use is the norm. The game is far better for it. Perhaps Egosoft experimented with making Xenon use missiles, perhaps it was unintended, perhaps they reversed the choice because people complained. I don't know, ask Egosoft why Xenon were capable of using missiles in that Beta.

If that have been the case they had announced it in the patchnotes they release with every new Beta iterration. So They never used them at all. So the problem could not be the beta.
The second thing would have been people would have complaint about that feature or its removal in this forum. But there are no topics regarding missile using xenon besides yours, so that means it never was a feature in beta or added accidentaly in beta.
No one says you are making things up. But the source for the missile using xenon has to be something else but the game itself.

[Scoob]

If that have been the case they had announced it in the patchnotes they release with every new Beta iterration. So They never used them at all. So the problem could not be the beta.
The second thing would have been people would have complaint about that feature or its removal in this forum. But there are no topics regarding missile using xenon besides yours, so that means it never was a feature in beta or added accidentaly in beta.
No one says you are making things up. But the source for the missile using xenon has to be something else but the game itself.

Well, this is THE game as provided by the developers (in that specific Beta), there are no mods or external files. The instance has always been 100% vanilla, no mods ever present. If Xenon missile use was not intended by the developers, then it must be a bug of that particular Beta that granted them this ability. I pretty sure the Devs won't include unknownbugs in the patch notes. As mentioned, this game was used in various bug reports and a Dev would be all over it if mods were present.

The only action I took outside of a regular game start was to chose the Custom no-Budget start option. This does mark the Save as "Modified" which is silly, as it's NOT modified with third-party files, it's just a "Feature" of using that Custom start option. I assume because it's possible to "Cheat" a load of assets at game-start - a great aid to beta testing if used that way.

If people don't want to accept these facts, fine. It was fully reproduced in the Saves I submitted at the time - albeit to report a different issue - and could clearly be seen happening, if someone were to simply watch for it. However, that was in an older version of the game, during the Beta. Suggesting an issue never exited in a a specific version of the game simply because it didn't happen before that version and doesn't happen in newer versions isn't logical.

As mentioned, the Saves I submitted at the time clearly showed Xenon using missiles. I would load these saves, watch the combat, observe my ships NOT returning for repair and rearm (the bug I was testing) when running out of their own missiles or Flares, or taking damage. Once out of Flares - which they were using to counter missiles fired by Xenon - I was observing them falling quickly, unable to counter said missiles. All clearly shown by loading the various saves I uploaded. The fact that ships were falling to missiles was secondary, and not my concern at the time. The bug being reported was ships not returning for repair and rearm, which was subsequently fixed. It was in that thread that people commented about Xenon missile use, or lack of it, and pointed me here. As I was i) Beta testing and ii) NEW Xenon ships had just been added, it wasn't unreasonable to assume that the new Xenon ships were intended to make use of missiles. It made them a much more dangerous foe that's for sure, as my ships experienced when they ran out of Flares and didn't return for more.

[Alan Phipps]

I think it is fair to say that only Scoob can say with any authority what happened in their own game, and that what was seen there is not present in subsequent vanilla release versions. It remains currently difficult to explain why that game was so different. (Whether it was some uncleared vestige in the game installation or save left over from a mod such as VRO, or instead a failed dev experiment that was quickly discontinued, is all rather immaterial now.)

Let's end that particular niche debate and move along with on-topic discussion about current vanilla and whether or not Xenon *should* have missiles.

[LameFox]

I would not mind them having some... provided that automated resupply is improved. All factions seem to be bad at this, and even the tools available to players require more manual control than I'd like, but Xenon don't even have the tools to do it well in theory: no carriers, nor supply ships, nor EQ docks. All their missile equipped ships are presumably going to be flying all the way back to their wharves/shipyards for missiles, assuming they did resupply them at all.

[Alan Phipps]

That's a good point - and I have always wondered if and how the Xenon minelayers restock mines when depleted.

[Falcrack]

Yes, Xenon should have missiles. I mean, why not? Would make it more interesting to defend against swarms of torpedo bombers from Xenon. But if they do get missiles, maybe Egosoft should give them a resupply ship as well. Maybe a carrier also (bring back the J maybe).

[Scoob]

I think the Xenon should certainly have missiles available to them, making them on-par with other factions in that regard. Sure, their ability to resupply when out would then become a potential issue of course, though that is true of any ships sent out to invade another sector - they do need support. However, current Xenon logic means they'll often not survive that long to start with. They'd be sort of alpha-strike, arrive, fire their missiles and perhaps kill a target out-right before they in-turn are destroyed. Implementation of a proper Xenon Carrier which moves with / a little behind the invasion fleet and can resupply subordinates, as well as any nearby ships would be quite cool. Carriers can be devastatingly effective in player hands, so perhaps it was considered a bit too challenging for the player who's wanting to fight the Xenon?

Speaking of my modified Game where Xenon still have missiles, it certainly makes them a more challenging opponent, on-par with other missile-using factions. From Fighters using missiles through to missile destroyers, it really changes their threat level. The player needs to think a bit harder re: load-outs. I.e. a "heavy" destroyer with anti-capital ships weapons would fall quickly to a missile destroyer firing off multiple volleys from range without some active anti-missile turrets. While the Missile Defence Turret command has been much improved, it's far from a perfect counter, but still essential to have some missile defence at least. Before, having several turrets on larger ships dedicated to missile defence was a must, now we can use "Shoot Missiles first" which works, but doesn't seem quite as responsive as pure Missile Defence. Obviously, like regular missiles, how well a missile resists countermeasures or how my hits it can take (hull points) are a major balancing factor.

So, that short stint where my vanilla Beta game saw Xenon using missiles certainly upped the difficulty. Whether the player base in general would welcome that, I don't know. Personally, I use mods to make things HARDER for me, meaning I have to work to support my allies. I can see why some might not like that. My defence platform with supporting Fighters (many with their own missiles) certainly struggled with Xenon missile use, however, a large part of that was due to them not returning to repair and resupply Flares and their own missiles of course. A bug long fixed thankfully.

Speaking personally, it's usual for me that the Xenon are the enemy in my game, as I generally organically become on good terms with the major factions. As they are my main foe, I'd like them to have a few more tricks available to them. Missiles seem a logical choice.

One more thought re: Xenon using missiles. It does highlight certain existing weaknesses in the game. For example. While Stations can have their turrets set to an of the current commands, Shoot Missiles First and Missiles Only does nothing. It doesn't work. Even if it did, we'd ideally need a bit more control on which turrets try to shoot missiles first and which should never even try. Also, the Drone Missile Defence Command doesn't appear to work either. Having Combat Drones permanently patrolling around a station or Guarding a ship, intercepting missiles would be cool. I feel that, in general, missiles are a bit of an underdeveloped feature. Mods, add more missiles, which is great, but things can still be a little clunky at times.

[LameFox]

That's a good point - and I have always wondered if and how the Xenon minelayers restock mines when depleted.

I think that kind of ship just recycles itself when it runs out. I see a lot of things like "combat engineer" flying with a recycle order when I get high enough rep.

[Raptor34]

That's a good point - and I have always wondered if and how the Xenon minelayers restock mines when depleted.

I think that kind of ship just recycles itself when it runs out. I see a lot of things like "combat engineer" flying with a recycle order when I get high enough rep.

Now that's an idea. Missile drones. Drones that go out, dump their missiles then go back to recycle.
I'm just not sure how useful in terms of simplifying logistics that would be, maybe like how any station can apparently generate their own missiles and drones out of resources, the same can be done here? And the drones should be cheap enough it doesn't matter if we skip the recycle part.
Not just for Xenon of course, but for everyone. Maybe then drone carriers can reach the next level.