How about a boost gauge separate from shields? Or a mod for this...

[Submarine]

Boost is a new mechanic in X4 and needs special attention to make it work but has not had enough.

Nope, already been there in Rebirth

Really? Didnt play it. Was disaffected by the absence of cockpits in X3 and poor reviews for XR.

I liked X4 better than X3 and its not boost itself which is the problem with X4 but the lack of controls for the player fleet relating to boost.

[vvvvvvvv]

Really? Didnt play it. Was disaffected by the absence of cockpits in X3 and poor reviews for XR.

I liked X4 better than X3 and its not boost itself which is the problem with X4 but the lack of controls for the player fleet relating to boost.

There is some control. When you issue attack order, you can go to behavior tab, unfold order, and t here will be checkbox to disable boost. However, you cannot set default, cannot quickly issue "no boost attack" order, cannot specify how much ships are going to boost, etc. AI also seem to fire boost in fixed durations. That results in situations where AI ship with modded boosters that can reach 8...16 km/s blasts 25 kilometers away from combat zone while trying to boost.

Rebirth... rebirth is a huge mess, story focused. You have cockpits, but you're locked into a single ship. Supposedly you can make it better with mods, but I tried to get into it several times and couldn't. The game also tries to follow bladerunner aesthetic, which to me doesn't make a whole lot of sense in space. There are several mechanics there which later made way into x4. For example, you can walk on stations in person, there's small area in the ship you can wander, but entering the cockpit triggers cutscenes, plus you get a chatty sidekick you never needed.

That's obviously, a personal opinion. Some people manage to get into it.

[JasonX2000]

Really? Didnt play it. Was disaffected by the absence of cockpits in X3 and poor reviews for XR.

I liked X4 better than X3 and its not boost itself which is the problem with X4 but the lack of controls for the player fleet relating to boost.

There is some control. When you issue attack order, you can go to behavior tab, unfold order, and t here will be checkbox to disable boost. However, you cannot set default, cannot quickly issue "no boost attack" order, cannot specify how much ships are going to boost, etc. AI also seem to fire boost in fixed durations. That results in situations where AI ship with modded boosters that can reach 8...16 km/s blasts 25 kilometers away from combat zone while trying to boost.

Rebirth... rebirth is a huge mess, story focused. You have cockpits, but you're locked into a single ship. Supposedly you can make it better with mods, but I tried to get into it several times and couldn't. The game also tries to follow bladerunner aesthetic, which to me doesn't make a whole lot of sense in space. There are several mechanics there which later made way into x4. For example, you can walk on stations in person, there's small area in the ship you can wander, but entering the cockpit triggers cutscenes, plus you get a chatty sidekick you never needed.

That's obviously, a personal opinion. Some people manage to get into it.

Well, besides the cockpit thing, "Conquest and War in Rebirth"-Mod did its job pretty well, making the game way better. I enjoyed XR with that mod a lot. Without that mod, its fine as long a s the story goes. But after its finished you are haning there with "erm what do i do now?". And at some time i did not hear the sidekick anymore. Just like i don't hear betty in x4 anymore. But i would never want bett to be gone. ^^

[Scoob]

Would not be better for me. Most of the time I use boosters aggressively, to rapidly close the distance to an enemy ship, while minimising the amount of fire I take during that manoeuvre. This approach would no longer be viable if using boosters to get on the tail of an enemy meant that weapons could no longer fire.

I'm thinking more for effective use by the AI. If they're evasive they're NOT trying to shoot. At a given moment, all ships bar ONE (at most) are flown by the AI, so it has potential to prevent needless ship deaths.

Of course, I'd rather have a separate boost capacitor, as that works perfectly for both player and AI. However, I'll take a solution that's more readily implemented over one that, to be frank, isn't likely to happen sadly.

[GCU Grey Area]

I'm thinking more for effective use by the AI. If they're evasive they're NOT trying to shoot. At a given moment, all ships bar ONE (at most) are flown by the AI, so it has potential to prevent needless ship deaths.

Don't care. My enjoyment of playing the game is my first priority. No amount of AI improvement from such a change could make up for the game becoming less fun for me to play as a consequence. Would make boosters essentially useless for me if every time I used them to get onto an enemy's tail it stopped my guns from working. Anyway, I'm generally happy with how the AI use boost as it is now. During fleet battles I like to fly one of the S fighters personally - I see what my AI controlled fighters are doing all around me. I like to see them use boost for the purposes of evasion, even if that does mean they're not shooting at that precise moment (they'll be back in the fight before long) & think it's great when they use boost after an attack run to rapidly get back into position for the next. Their guns generally need a moment to cool down at this point anyway, so doesn't really matter if this manoeuvre prevents them from attempting to shoot at a target that's now behind them.

Of course, I'd rather have a separate boost capacitor, as that works perfectly for both player and AI. However, I'll take a solution that's more readily implemented over one that, to be frank, isn't likely to happen sadly.

Would not work perfectly for me. I actively enjoy having to assess whether a given situation is best handled by using boost to rapidly reposition, or if it's better to conserve my shields. It's part of the Think aspect of the game as far as I'm concerned. The change proposed in this thread would rob me of that tactical decision & would make the fighter combat in this game substantially less fun.

[Scoob]

Don't care. My enjoyment of playing the game is my first priority. No amount of AI improvement from such a change could make up for the game becoming less fun for me to play as a consequence. Would make boosters essentially useless for me if every time I used them to get onto an enemy's tail it stopped my guns from working. Anyway, I'm generally happy with how the AI use boost as it is now. During fleet battles I like to fly one of the S fighters personally - I see what my AI controlled fighters are doing all around me. I like to see them use boost for the purposes of evasion, even if that does mean they're not shooting at that precise moment (they'll be back in the fight before long) & think it's great when they use boost after an attack run to rapidly get back into position for the next. Their guns generally need a moment to cool down at this point anyway, so doesn't really matter if this manoeuvre prevents them from attempting to shoot at a target that's now behind them.

You might not, but others would. Improving AI behaviour has consistently enhanced the overall game experience for me. I want AI controlled ships to have comparable options to me when I'm piloting. I suspect having a separate boost pool would make things much easier for the AI, making it look smarter than it actually is. From a player perspective, it'd still be a resource that needs to be carefully managed. Perhaps one that's vulnerable to Ion-class weapons - i.e. it can be depleted by weapons fire potentially. That's make "don't get hit" even more important, a good challenge for the player perhaps.

I very much doubt things will change with the boost mechanic. So, an AI better able to work with what it's got is essential. No more "I think I need to run away now, but I'll just slow to a stop and ponder life, the universe and everything for a moment before I do". As players we exclusively fight AI-controlled ships, and I want them to be a challenge.

[Submarine]

I liked X4 better than X3 and its not boost itself which is the problem with X4 but the lack of controls for the player fleet relating to boost.

There is some control. When you issue attack order, you can go to behavior tab, unfold order, and t here will be checkbox to disable boost. However, you cannot set default, cannot quickly issue "no boost attack" order, cannot specify how much ships are going to boost, etc. AI also seem to fire boost in fixed durations. That results in situations where AI ship with modded boosters that can reach 8...16 km/s blasts 25 kilometers away from combat zone while trying to boost.

Rebirth... rebirth is a huge mess... Supposedly you can make it better with mods... That's obviously, a personal opinion....

Well, besides the cockpit thing, "Conquest and War in Rebirth"-Mod did its job pretty well, making the game way better. I enjoyed XR with that mod a lot. ...

Having an opinion is the prerogative of an enlightened mind.

The good thing about X4, there is always something to do if you use your imagination.

The boost control in attack orders unfortunately is not enough to make the squad game playable, in my opinion. The micro of tweaking every attack order breaks up the flow of play too much. Which is a shame as I feel otherwise the game creates perfect conditions for a small squad play, apart from this lack of persistent boost controls.

This is based on empirical tests, multiple replays of combats from the same saves. Same squad, same battle e.g. escort missions etc which are made for squad play. If I micro boost off, all survive. If I don't, one or two ships out of a wing of six will die, every time. That is 33% losses at the start of the game when those ships are all personally captured from pirates. So I micro boost off but cannot play like that, its unbearable going through the whole wing every thirty seconds and microing boost off for newly generated attack orders.

Squad play is a whole way of experiencing the game which is not viable because the AI doesn't boost right and there are no persistent controls. You have to either play with one ship or a very limited squad to reduce micro, or stop caring when ships and pilots die which means you have to go large with a big fleet and manufacturing base to replace "attrition".

It seems obvious there could/should be a progression from small beginnings to massive power passing through intermediate squads and fleets. Currently the game prepares a play path which is oblivious to the intermediate stage and directs players to scale manufacturing and build a disposable armada in that order.

The lack of boost controls and a dysfunctional AI effectively obstruct squad play and low reward squad sized missions, like escort, because of this. Why make that kind of mission if you don't want to encourage squad play?

[jlehtone]

What is "squad play"? I reckon, the Timelines out-of-box missions had "tiny squads". I'm not fond of restrictive missions, but those squads did perform surprisingly well. Did they boost? I had no time to watch.


There are two questions:

• What can we do with what we have now?
• What could we do if we had something else?

Both are valuable, but present very different attitude. The first makes the best of the duct tape. The other strives for "better" future. The "better" is subjective.


Would ability to change/set default boost behaviour of AI orders be "a better future" (that does not hamper the fun that some of us see in the current game)?

[Submarine]

What is "squad play"? I reckon, the Timelines out-of-box missions had "tiny squads". I'm not fond of restrictive missions, but those squads did perform surprisingly well. Did they boost? I had no time to watch.


There are two questions:

• What can we do with what we have now?
• What could we do if we had something else?

Both are valuable, but present very different attitude. The first makes the best of the duct tape. The other strives for "better" future. The "better" is subjective.


Would ability to change/set default boost behaviour of AI orders be "a better future" (that does not hamper the fun that some of us see in the current game)?

Squad is short for squadron. A naval squadron has 3-10 vessels. An RAF squadron in WW2 had around 12 aircraft, Bomber Harris combined five squadrons into bigger "wings".

In X4 the emergent result of defending your traders against pirates is a small group of captured S and M ships, between the very beginning of the game and early mid game, before you cap a DD! Smaller than a fleet or wing, bigger than Ace Rimmer's fighter escort. Smoke me a kipper I'll be back for breakfast etc. Its fun to play as a rag tag fleet, except for the boost micro thing which thoroughly ruins small ship combat and ensures gratuitous losses if victory is not secured by massively overwhelming firepower and numbers. Its a subtle kind of gameplay, more evenly matched, on the edge of survival. e.g. Engaging the smaller Xenon raiding squads of a P plus a couple of Ns and Ms with your squad of half a dozen heroes can feel like an accomplishment.

Adding the ability to set boost default for player owned ships piloted by AI would be much much better and very easy for egosoft to do, since global orders for similar controls already exist. Unfortunately we cannot mod it because apparently it is not exposed to modders, that would also be worth doing.

It would not change anything for those who wanted the default to stay the way it is, always "ON" because they could just leave it on.

For those who want it off it would make the game playable, by ending the need to micro it off for every attack order individually. I haven't played X4 since Nov 2022 because of this.

Truth be told boost controls are an anomaly in not providing a global setting, this is why I assumed it was on the to do list and have stopped playing until it is done. Just needs a new entry on that global page or even just for the ship to remember its last setting. The fixes are trivial, the payoff is the squad game becomes playable.

[JasonX2000]

There is some control. When you issue attack order, you can go to behavior tab, unfold order, and t here will be checkbox to disable boost. However, you cannot set default, cannot quickly issue "no boost attack" order, cannot specify how much ships are going to boost, etc. AI also seem to fire boost in fixed durations. That results in situations where AI ship with modded boosters that can reach 8...16 km/s blasts 25 kilometers away from combat zone while trying to boost.

Rebirth... rebirth is a huge mess... Supposedly you can make it better with mods... That's obviously, a personal opinion....

Well, besides the cockpit thing, "Conquest and War in Rebirth"-Mod did its job pretty well, making the game way better. I enjoyed XR with that mod a lot. ...

Having an opinion is the prerogative of an enlightened mind.

The good thing about X4, there is always something to do if you use your imagination.

The boost control in attack orders unfortunately is not enough to make the squad game playable, in my opinion. The micro of tweaking every attack order breaks up the flow of play too much. Which is a shame as I feel otherwise the game creates perfect conditions for a small squad play, apart from this lack of persistent boost controls.

This is based on empirical tests, multiple replays of combats from the same saves. Same squad, same battle e.g. escort missions etc which are made for squad play. If I micro boost off, all survive. If I don't, one or two ships out of a wing of six will die, every time. That is 33% losses at the start of the game when those ships are all personally captured from pirates. So I micro boost off but cannot play like that, its unbearable going through the whole wing every thirty seconds and microing boost off for newly generated attack orders.

Squad play is a whole way of experiencing the game which is not viable because the AI doesn't boost right and there are no persistent controls. You have to either play with one ship or a very limited squad to reduce micro, or stop caring when ships and pilots die which means you have to go large with a big fleet and manufacturing base to replace "attrition".

It seems obvious there could/should be a progression from small beginnings to massive power passing through intermediate squads and fleets. Currently the game prepares a play path which is oblivious to the intermediate stage and directs players to scale manufacturing and build a disposable armada in that order.

The lack of boost controls and a dysfunctional AI effectively obstruct squad play and low reward squad sized missions, like escort, because of this. Why make that kind of mission if you don't want to encourage squad play?

Don't know why you quoted me there. I just wrote that i liked Rebirth with that mod i mentioned xD

[Eyeklops]

Plus, if you use them for turrets, they are a logistical nightmare. Did you see how long it takes for a destroyer to dock at an aux ship?

I've always felt that cap ships requesting an "ordinance only" resupply could be handled better.

1. Cap ship requests a "resupply" and moves to close-ish proximity to aux ship.
2. Aux ship sends drones to deliver ordinance.
3. Cap ship flies away saving 5+ minutes of dock/undock time.

Ideally, a more advanced system would have the aux ship follow the cap ships around and automatically send drones on resupply missions to the fleet caps in close proximity keeping them "topped up".

[Ragnos28]

Plus, if you use them for turrets, they are a logistical nightmare. Did you see how long it takes for a destroyer to dock at an aux ship?

I've always felt that cap ships requesting an "ordinance only" resupply could be handled better.

1. Cap ship requests a "resupply" and moves to close-ish proximity to aux ship.
2. Aux ship sends drones to deliver ordinance.
3. Cap ship flies away saving 5+ minutes of dock/undock time.

Yeah, that would be ideal. One of the characteristics of an aux ship is that they carry lots and lots of drones, might as well use them.
And I'm not crazy about destroyers having to dock for repairs either. The destroyers service crew can repair all dmg on systems and bring the hull to 97%, those 3%, that require like you said 5+ minutes per ship to be manded, are not exactly essential for them to perform their duties.
In fact, I would consider removing aux ships from my fleets compositions, if not for the fact that I use them as "anchors" for my M ships (if I asign M ships to carriers, they would try to land on them, and that is extremly time consuming).

Ideally, a more advanced system would have the aux ship follow the cap ships around and automatically send drones on resupply missions to the fleet caps in close proximity keeping them "topped up".

Aux ships movements are always a lotery for me, when they are part of the main fleet, they either travel drive on top of my flagship, or sit 3 quarters of a sector away.

[jlehtone]

Adding the ability to set boost default for player owned ships piloted by AI would be much much better and very easy for egosoft to do, since global orders for similar controls already exist. Unfortunately we cannot mod it because apparently it is not exposed to modders, that would also be worth doing.

It would not change anything for those who wanted the default to stay the way it is, always "ON" because they could just leave it on.

There should be less players opposing such additions.
Adding to UI something that we can already do (in very difficult way) is not against "the design", is it?
The only question is, how feasible is it to implement?

[Submarine]

Adding the ability to set boost default for player owned ships piloted by AI would be much much better and very easy for egosoft to do, since global orders for similar controls already exist. Unfortunately we cannot mod it because apparently it is not exposed to modders, that would also be worth doing.

It would not change anything for those who wanted the default to stay the way it is, always "ON" because they could just leave it on.

There should be less players opposing such additions.
Adding to UI something that we can already do (in very difficult way) is not against "the design", is it?
The only question is, how feasible is it to implement?

Thank you jlehtone, that is an eminently reasonable perspective. I dont know if there is a technical obstacle to implementation of global default or ship memory but from what little I do understand about X4 I dont think it would be difficult at all for an egosoft dev.

Global setting would mean adding a line to the global settings interface page with a checkbox to toggle a flag consulted at the generation of every attack order for player properties only. I believe from previous dev input the flag already exists and is set to always on with no way for players to switch it off. So it appears to be set up as a stub to allow a control, which has not been completed.

Ship memory would require a flag added to ship properties. I don't know if that would cause game save issues if the game tries to parse data from a save without the flag but common sense suggests not, as surely the game could read the data present and assume a zero or default value for any fields without data and the next save would then contain all fields.

The only thing mods have achieved is to completely disable boost for all objects which includes the player's ship.

My enjoyment of playing the game is my first priority ... I actively enjoy having to assess whether a given situation is best handled by using boost to rapidly reposition, or if it's better to conserve my shields. It's part of the Think aspect of the game as far as I'm concerned. The change proposed in this thread would rob me of that tactical decision & would make the fighter combat in this game substantially less fun.

And these sentiments apply to the idea of shutting down boost completely which is all that mods can currently do. It is no fix because it is no fun.

[GCU Grey Area]

And these sentiments apply to the idea of shutting down boost completely which is all that mods can currently do. It is no fix because it is no fun.

Agree with that, I wouldn't want to shut down boost entirely either - my approach to S/M dogfighting in X4 is heavily dependent on rapid repositioning using boost. I am fine, by the way, with your suggestions about introducing greater & more convenient control over when AI ships are allowed to use boost. Wouldn't use it myself (I love seeing my AI controlled ships boosting around), however it would certainly be a preferable solution to boost itself being dumbed down to a 'boost whenever the gauge is off cooldown' mechanic (which is generally the optimal strategy in games where boost has no immediate negative consequences).

[Submarine]

And these sentiments apply to the idea of shutting down boost completely which is all that mods can currently do. It is no fix because it is no fun.

Agree with that, I wouldn't want to shut down boost entirely either - my approach to S/M dogfighting in X4 is heavily dependent on rapid repositioning using boost. I am fine, by the way, with your suggestions about introducing greater & more convenient control over when AI ships are allowed to use boost. Wouldn't use it myself (I love seeing my AI controlled ships boosting around), however it would certainly be a preferable solution to boost itself being dumbed down to a 'boost whenever the gauge is off cooldown' mechanic (which is generally the optimal strategy in games where boost has no immediate negative consequences).

I use and enjoy the same method,which leads to careful timing of fire to take down the enemy shield and catch them, sit on their tail and prevent them boosting away which is assisted by having an ion cannon in the mix. It is also handy for capping as it does not take down the hull as much but keeps rolling the dice. I would call that emergent, if you think about it and get into it, study the problem, it is the logical course of action given the game rules. So its a case of great minds thinking alike and min maxing combat if you like.

It is also what you expect if testers played the game and advised development. It is bound to be playable somehow, one needs faith in the designers that there is a way to win, so one tries to sniff it out. TBH I feel like maybe those who cannot get to grips with boost play as a pilot have not made that commitment and leap of faith to understood the rules that it can work to their advantage. X games are full of extraordinary player advantages like this and that is fine. So like yourself I am quite happy for boost to stay the way it is. Just needs better AI usage, especially when they are fighting for you! Which means we need those controls.

I would say the need for boost controls is just self evident if you try to play with a small squadron and emerges from the way egosoft set up the game. Its not really my idea, it is egosofts in the way they put a boost control in all attack orders, I am just trying to remind them what they were thinking. Only recently there was another thread on exactly this by another player, had exactly the same suggestions because these are self evident if you get into playing the fight game, which not all players do I grant you and thats cool as everyone plays X4 according to their own lights, but those who do need the boost controls which egosoft did not finish adding yet, is all.

viewtopic.php?t=467426
And that was referencing a Steam discussion about the same problem. Its not just me, is what I am trying to say but many years of camping egosoft development have taught me a little verbal persuasion sometimes helps things along so you will often find me chipping in to such discussions. It does not mean the problem is me, just saying, not to you but to those who have tried, don't shoot the messenger.

TLDR IMHO boost is playable but has a learning hump and fleet boost controls which must have been planned, are needed.

[Submarine]

PS it would be nice if while attending to boost, it was exposed to modders so that a modder could achieve what the people in this thread desire, a separate boost capacitor.

just make it possible

I think the AI probably wont know the difference tbh but may use it inappropriately and there may be minor tweaks required like what variable the script interrogates before deciding whether to use boost, so it would be good if the AI was moddable as well.

Is the AI moddble in X4 at the moment? I don't know.