Power management wish for X5 - Removed Argument

[flywlyx]

Power management isn't an FPS/RPG element, though? It's pretty common in space sims.

Space sims? I’m pretty sure you mean space shooters.

I'd hate to see Egosoft MMO-ify X5 with skill trees, levelling or 'abilities' or anything like that.

That would be a game I would have zero interest in.

I’d recommend you guys start by hating X4's research and ship modification systems, because these are exactly what I’m talking about—just under different names.
What makes you view in-game resources like skill points differently from modification slots?

[vvvvvvvv]

What makes you view in-game resources like skill points differently from modification slots?

They're perceived differently, because they require resources and not experience/skill points. In practice that means that instead of killing six billion purple hedgehogs to level up, you build a factory that produces resources you need to unlock tech. For example, Factorio and Satisfactory have technology trees, but they are not RPGs.

Skill trees also operate using power of magic. A player has a gun but deals more damage with it, even though it is the same gun everybody uses. Why? Because the player is so very special. And because magic. Skill trees also often used to gate the player or artificially prolong playtime.

I absolutely wouldn't want any skill trees in X4/5/whatever. This was implemented in Starfield, and it was an absolutely disgusting experience.

[adeine]

Power management isn't an FPS/RPG element, though? It's pretty common in space sims.

Space sims? I’m pretty sure you mean space shooters.

No, I meant space sims. Energy management and similar systems are very much part of the simulation aspect, as opposed to a more arcadey game which might have MMO style 'abilities' or 'levelling'.

If you think about it, the origin of those systems traces back to flight sims, where you get to interact with a functioning cockpit and all manner of relevant controls/switches.

[vvvvvvvv]

Power management isn't an FPS/RPG element, though? It's pretty common in space sims.

Space sims? I’m pretty sure you mean space shooters.

No, I meant space sims. Energy management and similar systems are very much part of the simulation aspect, as opposed to a more arcadey game which might have MMO style 'abilities' or 'levelling'.

If you think about it, the origin of those systems traces back to flight sims, where you get to interact with a functioning cockpit and all manner of relevant controls/switches.

Could you list couple of games that have this feature? Because the only ones I remember to have power routing are Elite Dangerous and Starfield(horrible implementation and not much of a spacesim).

[adeine]

Space sims? I’m pretty sure you mean space shooters.

No, I meant space sims. Energy management and similar systems are very much part of the simulation aspect, as opposed to a more arcadey game which might have MMO style 'abilities' or 'levelling'.

If you think about it, the origin of those systems traces back to flight sims, where you get to interact with a functioning cockpit and all manner of relevant controls/switches.

Could you list couple of games that have this feature? Because the only ones I remember to have power routing are Elite Dangerous and Starfield(horrible implementation and not much of a spacesim).

A couple of the classics/most famous ones:

Wing Commander series
Freespace series
Star Wars space sims like X wing

[flywlyx]

They're perceived differently, because they require resources and not experience/skill points. In practice that means that instead of killing six billion purple hedgehogs to level up, you build a factory that produces resources you need to unlock tech. For example, Factorio and Satisfactory have technology trees, but they are not RPGs.

I’ve never mentioned anything about experience or leveling. I’d suggest refraining from assuming what others are discussing.
"Experience" and "resources" are simply different types of tokens used to unlock rewards, if you believe they are entirely separate concepts in game design, I’d suggest stepping back from this discussion, as it may be beyond your understanding.

Skill trees also operate using power of magic. A player has a gun but deals more damage with it, even though it is the same gun everybody uses. Why? Because the player is so very special. And because magic. Skill trees also often used to gate the player or artificially prolong playtime.

I absolutely wouldn't want any skill trees in X4/5/whatever. This was implemented in Starfield, and it was an absolutely disgusting experience.

The reality is that 99% of the X4 universe doesn’t use the modification system at all, so why should the player be an exception? Just because of magic.
At this point, X4 could be described as an absolutely disgusting experience by your standards.

No, I meant space sims. Energy management and similar systems are very much part of the simulation aspect, as opposed to a more arcadey game which might have MMO style 'abilities' or 'levelling'.

If you think about it, the origin of those systems traces back to flight sims, where you get to interact with a functioning cockpit and all manner of relevant controls/switches.

As I mentioned before, "energy systems" are typically designed as single-ship games, so applying them to fleet battles becomes overly complex.
In a similar way, X4’s modification system functions similarly; instead of using energy, it relies on modification parts to enhance specific functions of the ship.
It has the same limitation: most players don’t see the modification system as suited for fleet combat, as applying modifications individually to each ship is far too tedious.

A couple of the classics/most famous ones:

Wing Commander series
Freespace series
Star Wars space sims like X wing

Any non-space shooter？

[vvvvvvvv]

The reality is that 99% of the X4 universe doesn’t use the modification system at all, so why should the player be an exception? Just because of magic.
At this point, X4 could be described as an absolutely disgusting experience by your standards.

Skills use abstract points, unlocks use objects. Objects are better then points, especially if you can manufacture them, because in this scenario acquisition of objects becomes a puzzle. As demonstrated by Factorio/Satisfactory.

If you have skill tree, you have leveling system. Because player needs a way to get more points to unlock more things. That would be leveling.

There's also a difference between leveling tree and technology tree. X4 has technology tree.

In X4 modifications are used by BUC and MIN. That already is bigger than 1%. As to why... because player found HQ and Boso Ta and the rest of the world didn't.

[adeine]

They're perceived differently, because they require resources and not experience/skill points. In practice that means that instead of killing six billion purple hedgehogs to level up, you build a factory that produces resources you need to unlock tech. For example, Factorio and Satisfactory have technology trees, but they are not RPGs.

I’ve never mentioned anything about experience or leveling. I’d suggest refraining from assuming what others are discussing.
"Experience" and "resources" are simply different types of tokens used to unlock rewards, if you believe they are entirely separate concepts in game design, I’d suggest stepping back from this discussion, as it may be beyond your understanding.

Skill trees also operate using power of magic. A player has a gun but deals more damage with it, even though it is the same gun everybody uses. Why? Because the player is so very special. And because magic. Skill trees also often used to gate the player or artificially prolong playtime.

I absolutely wouldn't want any skill trees in X4/5/whatever. This was implemented in Starfield, and it was an absolutely disgusting experience.

The reality is that 99% of the X4 universe doesn’t use the modification system at all, so why should the player be an exception? Just because of magic.
At this point, X4 could be described as an absolutely disgusting experience by your standards.

No need to be confrontational for the sake of it.

There clearly is a difference between gaining an advantage through in-universe resources as opposed to unique attributes of the player avatar. It's not only a distinction in immersion or presentation (though that is certainly an aspect of it) but also in how it interfaces with the gameplay loop.

X4 is very much built around the premise that the player should not be special, with the living universe progressing with or without their influence. I do think the universe should make better use of mods, and for similar reasons feel inventory wares/crafting/similar game mechanics are not a particularly good addition to the X game formula.

No, I meant space sims. Energy management and similar systems are very much part of the simulation aspect, as opposed to a more arcadey game which might have MMO style 'abilities' or 'levelling'.

If you think about it, the origin of those systems traces back to flight sims, where you get to interact with a functioning cockpit and all manner of relevant controls/switches.

As I mentioned before, "energy systems" are typically designed as single-ship games, so applying them to fleet battles becomes overly complex.
In a similar way, X4’s modification system functions similarly; instead of using energy, it relies on modification parts to enhance specific functions of the ship.
It has the same limitation: most players don’t see the modification system as suited for fleet combat, as applying modifications individually to each ship is far too tedious.

A couple of the classics/most famous ones:

Wing Commander series
Freespace series
Star Wars space sims like X wing

Any non-space shooter？

You command fleets and wings both in Wing Commander and Freespace. The granularity of control is more or less the same as in X4, with you assigning overarching commands (attack target, defend target, fly to position, escort target, disengage, etc.) to single ships or groups of ships. You don't 'apply' energy management to anything other than your ship with any such handling, where necessary, performed by the AI. It's generally pretty basic, so you do have an advantage as a player if you choose to learn how to exploit the system to its fullest.

Not because you have a stat increase or skill tree, but because you can be a better pilot with the same resources and equipment available to everyone else

[flywlyx]

Skills use abstract points, unlocks use objects. Objects are better then points, especially if you can manufacture them, because in this scenario acquisition of objects becomes a puzzle. As demonstrated by Factorio/Satisfactory.

If you have skill tree, you have leveling system. Because player needs a way to get more points to unlock more things. That would be leveling.

There's also a difference between leveling tree and technology tree. X4 has technology tree.

Given your limited knowledge of game design, let me ask you a simple question:
What’s the difference between earning 1 skill point for defeating an enemy vs earning 1 set of modification parts for the same action?

In X4 modifications are used by BUC and MIN. That already is bigger than 1%. As to why... because player found HQ and Boso Ta and the rest of the world didn't.

Start a new game and check the save file—you'll find that only 110 modified modules exist in the entire universe, while there are 14,746 weapon modules alone. And that doesn’t even include shields, engines, or turrets.
The player could be the only god in the universe, lore is not important.

[flywlyx]

No need to be confrontational for the sake of it.

There clearly is a difference between gaining an advantage through in-universe resources as opposed to unique attributes of the player avatar. It's not only a distinction in immersion or presentation (though that is certainly an aspect of it) but also in how it interfaces with the gameplay loop.

X4 is very much built around the premise that the player should not be special, with the living universe progressing with or without their influence. I do think the universe should make better use of mods, and for similar reasons feel inventory wares/crafting/similar game mechanics are not a particularly good addition to the X game formula.

I never said anything about how the skill system is structured; skill systems based on loot aren’t a new concept.

You command fleets and wings both in Wing Commander and Freespace. The granularity of control is more or less the same as in X4, with you assigning overarching commands (attack target, defend target, fly to position, escort target, disengage, etc.) to single ships or groups of ships. You don't 'apply' energy management to anything other than your ship with any such handling, where necessary, performed by the AI. It's generally pretty basic, so you do have an advantage as a player if you choose to learn how to exploit the system to its fullest.

In these games, players can only issue basic, tactical-level commands. In contrast, X4 functions more like an RTS, allowing players to implement complex strategic and tactical commands.
The level of detail and effort required between these two types of command systems is not comparable.

Not because you have a stat increase or skill tree, but because you can be a better pilot with the same resources and equipment available to everyone else

You clearly have a stat advantage over the AI, as it lacks the ability to manage energy efficiently.
The energy system you mentioned isn’t much different from adding mods to all NPC ships in X4. I hadn’t realized this was a popular idea.

[flywlyx]

• As vvvvvvvv pointed out, one is an in-game object, the other is not. Objects that exist within the universe which can be traded, manufactured, used as a resource, or lost are not the same as an abstract player specific tally mark.
• Mod parts are installed into a ship. This ship will perform the same way whether you're flying it or someone else is, distinct from other ships. A skill point is nebulously attached to the player and follows the player into any ship.
• Modification parts scale indefinitely, skill points do not. You can create an infinite number of mods and outfit an infinite number of ships. If you were to do the same thing with skill points, you'd either run out of skill tree, or become omnipotent in a single ship.

Just to name a few of the main ones.

It’s unfortunate that you seem to have limited experience with RPGs. There are games where players can purchase skill points directly from shops, games where skill trees are linked to equipment, and games that allow infinite skill point investment. As I mentioned before, I never commented on how the skill system is structured.

The commands are very comparable.

Freespace in particular actually allows you to be a lot more dynamic in what other ships do. The only real difference is the map interface, which is both a blessing and a curse. For example, unlike in X4 you can seamless use complex commands while taking part in fights yourself as the command interface is quick, keyboard driven, and does not rely on a separate screen. In X4, this is impossible without pausing the game, opening the map, issuing commands, closing the map, and unpausing.

In terms of detail, X4 also loses out in some respects. For instance, how would you get AI ships to target incoming missiles/torpedoes in X4? How would you have them target one specific turret/subsystem of a ship?

Either way, I'm not sure what any of this has to do with power management being a thing or not.

The most crucial aspect of a tactical command system is positioning the right unit in the right place to engage the right enemy. Without a map view, this becomes nearly impossible. Lacking a full view of the battlefield means players can’t effectively issue commands within a 3D space.Whether a unit can target missiles or subsystems is just a minor detail that doesn’t really matter.
As I mentioned, due to the complexity of the RTS elements in X4, issuing effective commands is already challenging for players. Adjusting energy levels would only add extra micromanagement with minimal benefit.

No, the stats are exactly the same whether you or the AI pilots the ship. It's more accurate to think of ship stats as a resource (power), and you can manage the same amount of said resource in a more efficient way. This is different from adding mods to ships as mods have no gameplay/skill aspect to them and are just fixed stat modifiers.

Another way to think of it is that power management is more like turning off flight assist: a powerful tool in capable hands when the situation calls for it.

In current X4, ships has modification slots as a resource, and you can mange same amount of said resource in a more efficient way.
As I mentioned previously:

The energy system you mentioned isn’t much different from adding mods to all NPC ships in X4. I hadn’t realized this was a popular idea.

[vvvvvvvv]

Given your limited...

Except my game design knowledge is not limited at all, so you're starting your argument with a false premise.

Given you're being confrontational for no good reason, there will be no further discussion. In the future, when you want a chat with someone, kindly behave in a civil manner - a discussion is a two-way street.

[flywlyx]

Except my game design knowledge is not limited at all, so you're starting your argument with a false premise.

Given you're being confrontational for no good reason, there will be no further discussion. In the future, when you want a chat with someone, kindly behave in a civil manner - a discussion is a two-way street.

Just so you're aware, the "discussion" ends when I say :

I’d suggest refraining from assuming what others are discussing.

Attacking a straw man you've imagined is neither a discussion nor a civil manner.

[adeine]

It’s unfortunate that you seem to have limited experience with RPGs. There are games where players can purchase skill points directly from shops, games where skill trees are linked to equipment, and games that allow infinite skill point investment. As I mentioned before, I never commented on how the skill system is structured.

I'm not sure what makes you think that...? Either way, none of this addresses what I said.

Sure, if you show me an RPG where both you and NPCs can produce/gather, buy and sell skill points in a simulated economy, carry them as a physical item which may be stolen, lost or equipped to specific AI characters, then yes, you've recreated what a resource based game would do. So what, exactly?

Skill trees being linked to equipment is still player centric, they don't logically transfer to other characters. If you want an equivalent idea in RPGs, what you're looking for is item upgrades.

And yes, there are games that allow infinite skill point investment, allowing your character to become infinitely strong. This is part of the issue with such a system existing in a game like X4. It doesn't scale in a way that works.

The most crucial aspect of a tactical command system is positioning the right unit in the right place to engage the right enemy. Without a map view, this becomes nearly impossible. Lacking a full view of the battlefield means players can’t effectively issue commands within a 3D space.Whether a unit can target missiles or subsystems is just a minor detail that doesn’t really matter.
As I mentioned, due to the complexity of the RTS elements in X4, issuing effective commands is already challenging for players. Adjusting energy levels would only add extra micromanagement with minimal benefit.

Except the feature is completely orthogonal to said RTS elements. It's like saying you should not be able to toggle flight assist because the game has a map allowing you to command other ships.

You don't 'micromanage' this for any ships other than your own.

On the tactical command aspect, X4 is not great for RTS style micromanagement in the first place. I think you'd be surprised at just how effective a non-map based system can be. Having it as the only way to issue commands obviously would not work for an X game as the universe is larger than the player's immediate vicinity, but it would honestly be a great addition for engagements that directly involve the player.

In current X4, ships has modification slots as a resource, and you can mange same amount of said resource in a more efficient way.

I think you're missing the point of what I was trying to say. Here is an example of the difference just limited to X games: Weapon/turret loadouts in X3 vs X4:

In X3, you can carry spare equipment at the cost of credits and cargo space, and switch it out strategically during engagements (some mods like MARS allow you to automate this behaviour to some extent, even for AI ships). As the AI doesn't fully make use of this capability, you have an advantage as a player if you do so. It is an active part of skill-based gameplay.

In X4, equipment is set and can only be changed at docks. You have some control over turret groups and can enable/disable select weapons, but it's fairly limited in comparison.

In much the same way, you cannot swap out modifications in the middle of a fight or get more out of them through skill.

[Alan Phipps]

@ flywlyx: No matter how 'correct' you think your arguments to be, please refrain from making personal and even aggressive comments in your posts. They just curtail what might have been interesting discussions when other posters leave the thread rather than continue whilst feeling abused.

[flywlyx]

@ flywlyx: No matter how 'correct' you think your arguments to be, please refrain from making personal and even aggressive comments in your posts. They just curtail what might have been interesting discussions when other posters leave the thread rather than continue whilst feeling abused.

So you believe that labeling someone else's opinions as disgusting is less abusive?

[Alan Phipps]

Actually they said that their experience in another game was disgusting and nothing about your opinions being so. Also, you should know by now that discussion of moderation in open forum is against the forum rules.