Trump Presidency

[Vertigo 7]

You act as if this is some kind of snap decision. You do get we've been watching this madness build and build for nearly a decade now?

I dunno if you've ever served in a military, but I have and my oath is to "support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic". My "duty" didn't end when my service did. We can vote and rabble rouse till the cows come home but at the end of the day, clearly that isn't ending the threat. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but I also didn't seek your approval so, take from that what you will.

Besides, when did we start caring if a Nazi dies or not?

[CBJ]

Snap decision or not, it crosses the line as far as this forum is concerned. Tone down the violent rhetoric.

[Falcrack]

American democracy literally "dodged a bullet" when the bullet missed Trump. As much as I am opposed to Trump, the outcomes would have been far worse had Trump been killed or seriously wounded.

Instrad of being able to refute Trump and Trumpism at the ballot box, the twisted philosophy of Trump would live on and become strengthened. We would not have the opportunity to show the world and ourselves that we have made the choice to reject them. Trump as a martyr would be far more dangerous than Trump who is defeated in an election.

[felter]

Better with the devil that you know rather than the devil you don't.

If something happens to Trump, who and what would replace him, you have no way of knowing if they are going to be better or worse. Right now Trump is in trouble, he is losing massively to Harris and that actually proves the point as they wanted Biden to go, that has happened, and now they are facing the devil that didn't know they were going to face, and that devil is crushing them.

Just look at the weekend that just passed, you have big name Republicans going on National television and announcing that they were voting for Harris, saying it for only 4 years and over those 4 years they will get rid of Trump and things can hopefully get better. There was also a massive rally of golf buggies in Florida with over 500 buggies they were all Republicans in a deep red state and their flags and banners all read Harris not Trump. They came out with a saying RINO "Republicans In Name Only" it was meant to embarrass and attack Republicans who are not MAGA enough, well that has now backfired as it is now being used as a badge of honour as a Republican against Trump.

The UK recently had its own election, and it has shown one thing, and that is there is no such thing as a safe seat. Many Conservative MPs who supposedly held a safe seat are now unemployed, some of them have been in Politics for decades, but the people had had enough of them and have thrown them out of office. The same thing can happen in America but only if Americans want it and are ready to call for it, remember it's only for 4 years.

[Vertigo 7]

Sweet summer child, you should read back a few posts and tell us again its "only 4 years".

[fiksal]

Better with the devil that you know rather than the devil you don't.

As a generic saying, I disagree with it fully

Thinking like that prevents us addressing a real problem with everything at our disposal

[felter]

Sweet summer child, you should read back a few posts and tell us again its "only 4 years".

We are obviously talking about two absolutely different things, you are talking about Trump while I'm talking about Republicans who are voting for Harris and saying it's only for 4 years, but we get rid of Trump by doing so, the only 4 years is their reasoning.

Better with the devil that you know rather than the devil you don't.

As a generic saying, I disagree with it fully

Thinking like that prevents us addressing a real problem with everything at our disposal

I take it you don't understand what that saying means, there is no liking or disagreeing with it, you can either heed it or ignore it, what it is saying is that what comes next may not be better than what you already have and could be very much worse, while you can deal with what you have in the now, but can you deal with what could come.

Trump is a prime example of what could happen, there is a reason why when you google stupid you get a picture of Donald Trump, and that is because the man is as dumb as they come. All these ideas they are spouting the likes of Project 2015, have nothing to do with him, he never imagined any of it, others around him did, he is just parroting what they are saying to him. You can always tell when an idea is Trumps, sharpie pen weather predictions, infecting bleach to cure Covid these are the Trump ideas, not how to topple the US Government. Now what if Trump falls ill and is replaced tomorrow, who is he replaced with, it could easily be the person behind Project 2025 that will bring doom to one and all, or of course it could just as well be the best person in the world to replace him, no one knows all we do know is what we have in the now and there are ways of dealing with that, and dreaming of his demise is not an answer to that problem.

[fiksal]

Better with the devil that you know rather than the devil you don't.

As a generic saying, I disagree with it fully

Thinking like that prevents us addressing a real problem with everything at our disposal

I take it you don't understand what that saying means, there is no liking or disagreeing with it, you can either heed it or ignore it, what it is saying is that what comes next may not be better than what you already have and could be very much worse, while you can deal with what you have in the now, but can you deal with what could come.

I understand it, I disagree exactly with what it's asserting, that it's "better". It is not, there's no logical test that I can construct that consistently shows that it's "better". Because it's an opinion and not a statement of a fact. I don't think you can even show sufficient statistics for it.

I exactly disagree with the opinion as stated in those exact words

[Alan Phipps]

Back onto thread topic please. Like all such 'wise' sayings, it's about as useful and applicable as 'Be careful what you wish for'.

[jlehtone]

I don't think you can even show sufficient statistics for it.

In order to have statistics, we should collect data on cases, where someone did switch to yet unknown and what was the outcome?

Some colonists did switch from King George III into something. Some of them do now desire to change that something into Project 2025.
Only the former is a datapoint for the statistics (so far). Looking back, was that unknown devil "worse"?

When things are "bad", one can either be willing to take a risk to change the situation, or rather avoid risks by coping with current issue. The saying is from the latter mindset?


Trump is not exactly "unknown devil", but is unpredictable. Didn't Putin state preference to Biden due to Biden being predictable?
Who is now the "more unknown", Trump or Harris, and are voters more likely to take or avoid risks?

[fiksal]

Indeed.


We know what Trump voters want. What do other indifferent masses want is unclear.

If they don't care about stopping Putin's war, or abortion rights, or freedom of and from religion, maybe they will continue not voting

[humility925]

Indeed.


We know what Trump voters want. What do other indifferent masses want is unclear.

If they don't care about stopping Putin's war, or abortion rights, or freedom of and from religion, maybe they will continue not voting

There people won't vote as they might knew it's not helping anything especially they knew people in power corrupt, will lie to people anything for vote for long time, older/elder might more often not vote while young native think they make different by vote but older/elder with experience knew it's not help, at least for poor class, I don't know about rich class, they might care about vote more than poor class.

[fiksal]

Indeed.


We know what Trump voters want. What do other indifferent masses want is unclear.

If they don't care about stopping Putin's war, or abortion rights, or freedom of and from religion, maybe they will continue not voting

There people won't vote as they might knew it's not helping anything especially they knew people in power corrupt, will lie to people anything for vote for long time, older/elder might more often not vote while young native think they make different by vote but older/elder with experience knew it's not help, at least for poor class, I don't know about rich class, they might care about vote more than poor class.

Not voting leads only to one thing, you can see what happened in Russia in the last 25 years. People must be responsible and must vote, even if it's a protest vote, they still must perform the function in the democracy, or there's not going to be one.

[matthewfarmery]

Former President Donald Trump claimed Kamala Harris “turned Black” in an explosive on-stage interview at the National Association of Black Journalists Convention in Chicago.

“She was always of Indian heritage and only promoting Indian heritage,” Trump said. “I didn't know she was Black until a number of years ago when she happened to turn Black. And now she wants to be known as Black. So I don't know, is she Indian or is she Black?”

“I respect either one, but she obviously doesn’t,” Trump said.

ABC News’ Rachel Scott challenged Trump, and said that Harris had always identified as a Black woman, and had attended a Historically Black College. (Harris graduated from Howard University in 1986.)

I would say he been racist there. The BS that this guy's mouth is disgusting.

[fiksal]

some still remember the original "birther"

and would you know, it was also Trump

[Chips]

I dunno if you've ever served in a military, but I have and my oath is to "support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic". My "duty" didn't end when my service did. We can vote and rabble rouse till the cows come home but at the end of the day, clearly that isn't ending the threat. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but I also didn't seek your approval so, take from that what you will.

Besides, when did we start caring if a Nazi dies or not?

So the point you're making is that it is you and you alone who unilaterally gets to decide who should live or die in the name of the constitution. Right?

Sort of curious how this manifests when everyone has the same opinion, but about others of undefined names at present. It'd be chaos!

Hopefully we'll never find out as Biden stepped aside and it appears Harris is doing just fine; also, Trump and his cohort seem to become a bit unfocussed as they're not sure how to land a blow against her that chimes with the public. Meaning, losing ground...

[fiksal]

I think what Vertigo is implying is that he wasn't obligated to follow illegal orders, nor he is required now to take orders from a dictator. And if that dictator organizers a mob to storm the capital, it's in his oath to protect the constitution and its institutions.

Technically all Americans must follow a similar oath. Immigrants, like myself, also formally took this oath as well actually. While natural born do not, but it's implied.

In contrast to a position that a take over by dictators, American neo Nazis, or fascists should be only addressed at the polls

[Vertigo 7]

I think what Vertigo is implying is that he wasn't obligated to follow illegal orders, nor he is required now to take orders from a dictator. And if that dictator organizers a mob to storm the capital, it's in his oath to protect the constitution and its institutions.

Technical all Americans must follow a similar oath. Immigrants, like myself, also formally took this oath as well actually.

In contrast to a position that a take over by dictators, American neo Nazis, or fascists should be only addressed at the polls

This, 1000%. Pacificism didn't shut the Mango Mussolini up after his 2020 loss. It certainly won't do so now. Neither will it stop the cronies his faction have put in place to stop legal certification of the 2024 election results, IE making it so our vote doesn't matter and ensure his installation as emperor - what he tried to do in 2020 but this time they've had years to plan for his loss and put in mechanisms to circumvent it.

So you tell me, when what's just and right is made to fail, what do we have left to preserve our democracy?

[matthewfarmery]

I could very much see a coup / insurgence 2.0 if Trump loses. He will be desperate enough to rally those around him. Its like the Black convention that he recently went too, I think its probably desperation more then anything to stay relevant and to remain to the spotlight. Even though what he said didn't go down well. I think his handlers will prevent a rerun anytime soon. I think if he didn't have the fear of losing, then there would be no chance of him going there in the first place. But he is a desperate man.

So for that reason, he will be desperate to return, and do anything to get that power and protection back. Even if it means starting a civil war 2.0. The GOP won't mind.

But to protect democracy and to prevent him from retaking the WH, if voting doesn't work, I don't see any other alternative then something just more extreme. the problem is, the clean up will take a long time to heal.

If he does get back in, Democracy is finished. if he doesn't, a bloodbath. (probable) A very tight and thin tightrope to maintain what you have and maintain it for future generations.

I think, as things get closer to the election, and if the polls show that Harris is in the lead, he going to flip out more and more, and be ultra desperate and stupid. He won't know how to play it any other way. His mindset is about winning, so if it looks like he losing and losing badly, he will do whatever it takes to regain the limelight, even if others get hurt by that.

[notaterran]

Evangelicals continue to enthusiastically support Trump, that's a large bloc of voters that has always been important to conservative candidates. They're also gradually driving young people away from churches:

I don’t believe the evangelical world understands the massive damage they have done to the Christian cause. Their gross hypocrisy about Donald Trump (and many other things) has turned millions of people away from Christ and the church, especially young people. Christianity is in serious decline in America. One of the leading causes of that decline is the hypocrisy of the Religious Right.

Link

[...] the only major religious category experiencing widespread growth today is the religiously unaffiliated.

[...]

“After observing the growth of unaffiliated Americans for decades, our survey confirms that this trend is not slowing,” said Melissa Deckman, Ph.D., CEO of PRRI.

Link

Due to their fanatical nature I worry that they'll take up arms if Trump loses in November.