Manticore Tug return range

[Scoob]

Hi,

There appears to be a threshold at which a Manticore Tug, after collecting some scrap, with either sit in place waiting for a free Processor or return to the proximity of the station and wait. Of course, the latter is preferable as scrap collection often happens in hostile areas.

For example, I've set up a scrapping operation in Silent Witness XII to take advantage of the vast scrap fields there. I also deployed a Teuta (behaviour) to break up larger wrecks into Cubes. When the Teuta is operating within 40-50 km or so of the station, the Tugs can be seen collecting Scrap Cubes and just sitting there. Only when a Processor becomes free do they start to return to the Station, which leads to excessive Idle times for the multiple Processors on the station. I'd estimate in this situation the Processors are idle 50% of the time.

As a test, I manually ordered the Teuta to break down wrecks a good 100km+ away from the station, but still in the same sector. Now, those Manticore Tugs will collect a Scrap Cube and IMMEDIATELY return to the proximity of the station to wait for a free Processor. Now the Processors are regularly 100% active with very little idle time as the Tugs are really close, so can drop off quickly. This leads to a better production rate of Scrap Metal when the Manticore Tugs have FURTHER to go to collect the scrap, which is a little counter-intuitive of course.

I'd previously set a Teuta (default behaviour) and set it working near the station. The scrap field is so dense that it can operate for days while not moving far from the station. This is GOOD as this means the Teuta is regularly within the station's patrol radius, so station forces automatically intercept any Kha'ak or other hostiles that approach. However, with a greater travel distance hugely improving Processing efficiency, having the Teuta more distant has its benefits too.

I think Manticore Tugs should ALWAYS try to return to the proximity of the station, the current threshold distance for "wait here" or "return to station" is way too far. Tugs waiting where they collect the Scrap Cube (or regular S/M-sized wreck) is where I lose most of them to hostiles. They need to collect, and head back right away.

Thoughts? Anyone else noticed this?

[Alan Phipps]

"Anyone else noticed this?"

[Scoob]

I reported this as an issue previously too, quite some time ago now before v7.0, but wanted to share it with the wider community this time. The key bit of information I've added is the distance threshold. Under it (it's at least 40-50km) the Manticore will sit in place and not even attempt to return. Over it (I went over 100km away) and they WILL return right away and NOT wait for the free Processor before starting to head back.

I was chatting with another player about this, and we had totally opposing experiences. His Manticores were all returning promptly, mine were waiting in place. Turns out the key was that his were gathering from a greater distance than mine, hence why I did what I did, proving that this threshold value exists. Over it, a Tug will collect, return then wait for a free Processor, under it the Tug will collect, wait, and only start to return once a processor is free - leaving it idle for several minutes.

[Alan Phipps]

The only problem with that as an ironclad theory is that in my 6.20/7.00 vanilla game, some loaded Manticores were returning to near the Processors to wait, and others were waiting by the Teuta and wrecks a sector away (all travelling from the same Teuta location). I suspect the difference was in which of many busy Processors had been selected by/allocated to the Manticore and how quickly their turn at it was likely to come up.

The time that I really notice almost all loaded Manticores waiting elsewhere and have to direct them to come back is when the Processors have run out of storage for more scrap metal despite the efforts of the trade-allocated station miners and the Scrap Recyclers. That's when I do some manual scrap metal trading further afield and all quickly returns to a more normal situation for the gatherers.

[Scoob]

The only problem with that as an ironclad theory is that in my 6.20 vanilla game, some loaded Manticores were returning to near the Processors to wait, and others were waiting by the Teuta and wrecks a sector away. I suspect the difference was in which of many busy Processors had been selected by/allocated to the Manticore and how quickly their turn at it was likely to come up.

In earlier game versions I certainly saw Manticores waiting wherever they picked up the wreck. They only travelled back when a Processor was free it seemed, but the whole experience was pretty clunky back then due to them not picking an actually free Processor, but picking a random one as then failing if it wasn't actually currently free. Indeed, I changed my approach to build several separate stations each with just ONE Processor, which actually helped. I.e. Four stations with a single processor worked better than one station with four processors. v7.0 addressed that specific issue, which is great, so Tugs are picking only Processors that are actually free, but still have that travel time slowing things down. This distance-related thing seems to be new for v7.x. So, for the person I was originally discussing this with, things seemed MUCH improved, yet they were not for me. It was that discussion that helped us understand why our experiences were different.

Note: I do sometimes still see the odd Tug waiting near the collection point, but it's far more normal to see a stream of Tugs returning to wait near the station. Since moving the collection point further away, processors are far far less likely to fall idle for more than a moment or two and my scrap production rate can clearly be seen to have increased by looking at the graph. I've added no more Tugs to collect scrap, and I've added no more M-Class Miners to (repeat order) move the scrap metal to the recycler.

At the end of the day, v7.0 works better overall that v6.2 because of the fix to check for Processors that are actually free. The weird proximity return then wait vs. wait then return based on distance (if it is indeed truly based on distance as observed) is the last remaining wrinkle.

[Scoob]

Just to add. I notice that once the Scrap Processing station becomes near full, then I start seeing tugs waiting where they collect a scrap cube again. So, there's a delay returning again, despite the distance. Certainly needs more investigation I think, but hearing other's experiences does help paint a better picture of exactly what's happening here.

[TheDeliveryMan]

Just to add. I notice that once the Scrap Processing station becomes near full, then I start seeing tugs waiting where they collect a scrap cube again. So, there's a delay returning again, despite the distance. Certainly needs more investigation I think, but hearing other's experiences does help paint a better picture of exactly what's happening here.

Yes, a processing station wants to have just as much raw scrap as is needed to fill the allocated scrap metal storage. If the there is enough raw scrap incomming to fill the scrap metal storage, then no buy offer for raw scrap is created. Without buy offer tugs cannot deliver salvage.

[Scoob]

Yes, a processing station wants to have just as much raw scrap as is needed to fill the allocated scrap metal storage. If the there is enough raw scrap incomming to fill the scrap metal storage, then no buy offer for raw scrap is created. Without buy offer tugs cannot deliver salvage.

Yes, they cannot deliver Salvage, that's expected. However, when they cannot deliver they don't even bother to return. In my view they should still return, and wait near the station until the demand is there.

[TheDeliveryMan]

Yes, a processing station wants to have just as much raw scrap as is needed to fill the allocated scrap metal storage. If the there is enough raw scrap incomming to fill the scrap metal storage, then no buy offer for raw scrap is created. Without buy offer tugs cannot deliver salvage.

Yes, they cannot deliver Salvage, that's expected. However, when they cannot deliver they don't even bother to return. In my view they should still return, and wait near the station until the demand is there.

I usually don't use station assigned ships. What do miners and traders do when they have nothing to do, do they return home? I'd expectd them to behave the same in this situation.

[Scoob]

I usually don't use station assigned ships. What do miners and traders do when they have nothing to do, do they return home? I'd expectd them to behave the same in this situation.

You don't assign your Manticores to the station? You have them running the "Salvage at position" or Salvage behaviour?

Miners and Traders - those assigned to Stations at least - will do as follows:

- A Miner that's mining for a Station will offload what it can, then go back to mining. If totally full, it will idle around, not returning to the station until it can offload at least something.
- A Trader (any Container/Solid/Liquid class) will just idle near its location after undocking, until it gets another order.

[TheDeliveryMan]

I usually don't use station assigned ships. What do miners and traders do when they have nothing to do, do they return home? I'd expectd them to behave the same in this situation.

You don't assign your Manticores to the station? You have them running the "Salvage at position" or Salvage behaviour?

I use repeat order for almost everything. It's a lot more micromangement, but in return I have pretty good control of their behaviour. Usuall I include at least one Fly to Position command in their loop, this is their "safe zone" where they can idle. For my tugs the safe zone is right in front of the processor. Construction site suppliers (Hull Parts and Claytronics) wait just in front of the recycler in Windfall. My energy suppliers have two Fly to Position commands on the Windfall side of the gate to Avarice, so they will idle in Windfall, not in Avarice.

[Scoob]

I use repeat order for almost everything. It's a lot more micromangement, but in return I have pretty good control of their behaviour. Usuall I include at least one Fly to Position command in their loop, this is their "safe zone" where they can idle. For my tugs the safe zone is right in front of the processor. Construction site suppliers (Hull Parts and Claytronics) wait just in front of the recycler in Windfall. My energy suppliers have two Fly to Position commands on the Windfall side of the gate to Avarice, so they will idle in Windfall, not in Avarice.

I do like repeated order as it's one of the times we're 100% in control of what happens. I use it to move Scrap Metal from a Processing station to a recycling station. Regular traders would not be able to do this, as it's over five sectors away. I wish we could copy an existing repeat order and apply it to another ship. Perhaps Mimic works? Though it didn't seem to work for me when I last tried it.

So, you repeat order a collect scrap in area, then a move to, then a deliver scrap? That might work. I noticed that if I use the default Behaviour Autosalvage, my Teuta will just sit in one place, never moving yet churning out scrap cubes. If assigned to the station, it'll move around - sometimes dozens of km - between wrecks. It's like it NOT going to the next closest wreck to break it down.

Since manually moving the Teuta much further away, Tugs are reliably returning to the proximity of the station to wait - except when it gets near full output of course.

[TheDeliveryMan]

So, you repeat order a collect scrap in area, then a move to, then a deliver scrap? That might work.

Yes, two or three Slavage at Position commands, in case the first spot is empty. Then a Fly to Position command to near the processor and finally a Deliver Salvage command.

[Scoob]

Yes, two or three Slavage at Position commands, in case the first spot is empty. Then a Fly to Position command to near the processor and finally a Deliver Salvage command.

Nice. I can see how that would ensure the Tug returns reliably to the proximity of the station, whereas the station-assigned version does not, based on distance.