I need a Xenon wildlife preserve

[LameFox]

Started a new vanilla game in 7.0 and am 3 and a half days in, no SETA. Like most of my custom games I use the same seed: Freki. There is nothing very special about it, it's just the character name I use and I like being able to compare.


So far in this game I have barely contributed to the economy. I took a few SCA ships for money, have 2 L traders and a few L miners working for a station. Most of what I do is manual trade of Silicon Wafers.

Despite that, Xenon have already lost:

-all of Faulty Logic
-all of Scale Plate Green
-Matrix #451.

Savage Spur II is contested. The only faction they're even holding their own against seems to be ZYA, who are doing better than normal, but their normal is to be a complete wet noodle of a faction. Somehow they also held onto the end of Tharka's Ravine, which is weird because all it contains is one station and some S and T. I guess FRF just aren't interested.

I do see Xenon attacks coming into other factions' space, so it's not like they've gone idle or something. The attacks seem about as destructive as expected. I think the difference might be something in the economy, since with my traders I've been finding very few gaps in production, other than the eternally deficient advanced electronics. Apparently they're getting by with regular electronics, though. Normally with this same seed anyone outside of Terran space is struggling to even produce ships at this point, but post 7.0 they aren't. Which is not a bad thing per se, but the simplified economy is probably what saves the Xenon most of the time, and I guess they've lost their edge.

This is a bit disappointing, honestly. I wanted to take this save a bit easier, but it looks like I run the risk of losing the Xenon completely if I don't gear up to actively defend them. It's kind of a weird position to be in so early and without having caused it myself.

[Valkertok]

Do some quests and cause all the factions to start fighting eachother

[LameFox]

I generally do try to maximize conflict, but 3 days into a game where I wasn't focused on economy I really only have access to the Terran/Argon war at short notice due to the costs of the other quest lines. Might try it to see if I can salvage this save, but it's mainly TEL and HOP who have been dealing serious damage to the Xenon, so I'm not even sure it will change anything.

[Alan Phipps]

Just a guess but I would suspect that the randomised outcomes in the start of your current game saw the Xenon with difficult access to mineral resources and/or with hazardous routes for their miners and energy suppliers trying to deliver to build sites and ship building.

[LameFox]

Just a guess but I would suspect that the randomised outcomes in the start of your current game saw the Xenon with difficult access to mineral resources and/or with hazardous routes for their miners and energy suppliers trying to deliver to build sites and ship building.

How much is actually random using the same seed? It's seemed pretty consistent before.

[mediacenter]

Do some quests and cause all the factions to start fighting eachother

already do that, xenon still die


in my game
teladi rule over scale plate green and have a joint ownership of the matrix under free family space
argon have traveled to and conquered the xenon sector above zyarth space and after a while get pushed back by split that have gained those sector
hop is no more, wipe out by antigone force that conquered theyr sector and xenon sector
emperor mine as been conquered by the paranid forces alone

all of this without my intervention, in fact as a pirate i steal and destroyed hundreds of faction ship, and i use trade ship only if needed to complete story mission


the only xenon sector alive are the one in tharkas cascade that lead to savage spur 1
savage spur 2 is under terran dominion


i want to finish the yaki plot line but i cant without destroy the last xenon force and with them my save
i want to have fun guiding my force against the xenon but yet again i cant

i need the xenon to be more strong, if not in general at least in their sector
or
some kind of xenon revive protocoll

[LameFox]

Although this thread title was a joke, it would genuinely be kind of neat to have. Imagine a hybrid of Savage Spur and Leap of Faith with Xenon inside. The player can go in via an anomaly if they want to kill them off for good, but otherwise ships can only come out.

[GCU Grey Area]

This is my Xenon preserve: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/laa9429u ... 9wczd&dl=0
That's where almost all of the Xenon in my current game live. Only exception is a non-functional shipyard in Matrix #9 (no logistical support ships). Xenon population seems to be stable - Xenon ship production appears to exceed loss rate to raids by ANT/ARG forces. Terrans too busy fighting ANT/ARG to interfere. HOP have been eliminated.

[LameFox]

This is my Xenon preserve: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/laa9429u ... 9wczd&dl=0
That's where almost all of the Xenon in my current game live. Only exception is a non-functional shipyard in Matrix #9 (no logistical support ships). Xenon population seems to be stable - Xenon ship production appears to exceed loss rate to raids by ANT/ARG forces. Terrans too busy fighting ANT/ARG to interfere. HOP have been eliminated.

Did you claim Mists of Artemis to make them take it? They've ignored it in my current game and I figured it was one of those neutral sites the AI hold sacred. Then again half that spot is dead in my current game.

I think if I manage to save them anywhere it might be the Tharka's Cascade to Savage Spur area. Only because of the one-way highway keeping Terrans out and ARG/ZYA hostility (potentially) preventing either side from advancing in.

[GCU Grey Area]

Did you claim Mists of Artemis to make them take it?

No, only thing I've done in Mists was to explore the sector & deploy a sat grid so I could keep an eye on what happens in the sector. Xenon in neighbouring sectors were in a very healthy state though (LOTS of logistical support ships), which is probably what made the difference in their rapid expansion into the sector. Does not appear to be a permanently neutral sector. HOP were early casualties my the current game, long gone by the time the sector appeared. They were on my Embargo List trade rule from the start, while I was supplying all of their enemies (including the Duke). Outbreak of TER v ANT/ARG war also helped, for several weeks all participating factions have been too busy fighting each other in Getsu Fune & The Void to do much Xenon hunting.

I think if I manage to save them anywhere it might be the Tharka's Cascade to Savage Spur area. Only because of the one-way highway keeping Terrans out and ARG/ZYA hostility (potentially) preventing either side from advancing in.

They were doing quite well there in my game too. Was considering making that their sanctuary, however in the end decided to clear them out of the region so I could bring the Borons into the fight against the Terrans (have built a shipyard for them in Savage Spur).

[Alan Phipps]

@ LameFox: "How much is actually random using the same seed?" Nothing initially is different if you use the same seed, it will only diverge as you play on. The whole point is to use a different seed to get a different pseudo-random galaxy situation at the start (like starting resource and station locations).

[Damian Swift]

That is because the Xenon in 7.0 are fundamentally broken. They do not expand (problem making defence stations) which has been reported in the bug section of the forum by several people.

My current game, less that 24 hours in and the Xenon have already lost Matrix 451 and have bases set up in Matrix 9, Parinid have taken over all of faulty logic and to the top of the map, the Xenon have hardly touched Family Kritt or Family Zhin.

This bug is also posted on most of the social media platforms, the Xenon are just broken, then stick a defence station in a sector but never build it.

Sadly, i'd advise to leave the game until the bug is fixed otherwise you'll have a very boring Universe.

[LameFox]

Hm... I guess that would explain why they didn't take Mists of Artemis then. Guess I will wait for it to be patched and see if I feel like continuing with them half dead or starting over.

[LameFox]

Currently doing a bit of science.

I have switched back to the beta, and set up a creative start where I am friends with everyone and have full satellite coverage. I'm using the same seed again and just being a passive observer here to see how things go and maybe figure out what has changed.

I note that after only a short time I can see my Xenon *are* building stations, at least in that the sites exist and they are delivering resources, and the hull % is increasing. The obvious exception of course being Tharka's Ravine IV which simply spawns without a full economy and has no clear path to obtaining one. A strange sector.

Now, I can also see already that factions are *aggressively* attacking them. Intervention Corps have taken out a defence platform, ZYA, HOP, and PAR are sending ships into Xenon sectors, TEL already has a defence platform in Matrix 451 and several destroyers fighting Xenon there. And while the Xenon wharves and shipyards start out full of resources, several of them are spending these faster than they get them back, so their ability to fight is likely to taper off in the future. It will be interesting to see if, when that happens, they also stop being able to deliver wares to stations. The competition for resources might be a bit much.



UPDATE: 8 game-hours in with SETA, I am still not seeing a clear single point of failure. Though I will point out, even when fully supplied, their stations build VERY SLOWLY. Other than that, it looks like their economy overall is just weaker now relative to the rest of the universe. They are building ships and stations, harvesting resources, launching attacks. They killed the TEL defence platform from before, but more are springing up. TEL are also being quicker to claim sectors in the south-east that begin neutral.

The Xenon have failed to take Frontier Edge despite having a station in progress there almost since the start of this scenario—it got a small number of supplies delivered to it, and has not apparently seen much support since. Curiously, ANT haven't taken it either. ARG/ANT don't show the same kind of aggression I am seeing in other main factions, but I'm mainly watching Xenon, so it could be they've focused on HOP.

UPDATE 2: so far it seems like Ore is the limiting factor for them. If they run out of anything, it is Ore. If they aren't running out of Ore, they are still lower in Ore than any other resource. Between that and their supplied (i.e. build storage bar has gone all the way right in all three resources) stations building quite gradually, I guess they just can't keep up.

[MKL81]

That is because the Xenon in 7.0 are fundamentally broken. They do not expand (problem making defence stations) which has been reported in the bug section of the forum by several people.

My current game, less that 24 hours in and the Xenon have already lost Matrix 451 and have bases set up in Matrix 9, Parinid have taken over all of faulty logic and to the top of the map, the Xenon have hardly touched Family Kritt or Family Zhin.

I think the issue with Xenon not building stations as they should predates 7.0 update, such issues were raised already more than a year ago, I think. Granted, in my game, which I continue from 6.20, they never managed to establish themselves in any new sector, but lost 4 of them already (I helped with 2 of those).

[MKL81]

Currently doing a bit of science.

I have switched back to the beta, and set up a creative start where I am friends with everyone and have full satellite coverage. I'm using the same seed again and just being a passive observer here to see how things go and maybe figure out what has changed.

I note that after only a short time I can see my Xenon *are* building stations, at least in that the sites exist and they are delivering resources, and the hull % is increasing. The obvious exception of course being Tharka's Ravine IV which simply spawns without a full economy and has no clear path to obtaining one. A strange sector.

I find Tharka's Ravine to be pointless sector from Xenon ownership POV and wonder if it also influences number of jobs the Xenon have, while owning so many disjointed sectors. Not only that, but with 7.0 factions became more agile and competent overall. The cherry on top is the fact that somehow OSS simulation really hates the Xenon. This is not a secret I guess, but oftentimes I get very different results when letting the Xenon encounter play by itself when OOS vs being IS. This is very true for fights between Xenon and Terran Protectorate forces i.e. in Getsu Fune.

[LameFox]

One thing I'm noticing, due to being friends with them (I can see their orders and trades). Although the Xenon Defence platform in Frontier Edge has a higher buy order for Ore (63cr), miners filling up with Ore just south in Atiya's Misfortune I prioritise selling to the wharf there (47cr). It is however getting filled up with Silicon, presumably because the building facilities don't presently need Silicon. So this is further cementing my belief that this is a deficiency in resources, which was maybe always there but has become more apparent now because the Commonwealth aren't struggling as much as they used to. The Xenon might find it very hard to expand because not only do they build really slowly but if there's any space in the wharf (or presumably shipyard) the resources go there first.

I find Tharka's Ravine to be pointless sector from Xenon ownership POV and wonder if it also influences number of jobs the Xenon have, while owning so many disjointed sectors. Not only that, but with 7.0 factions became more agile and competent overall. The cherry on top is the fact that somehow OSS simulation really hates the Xenon. This is not a secret I guess, but oftentimes I get very different results when letting the Xenon encounter play by itself when OOS vs being IS. This is very true for fights between Xenon and Terran Protectorate forces i.e. in Getsu Fune.

Fortunately they don't have much in Tharka's Ravine. I'm really confused why it's set up the way it is, though. They literally cannot do anything. I mostly end up going there and find nothing besides the defence platform and that one K left which makes me think they probably deconstruct their own stations. FRF never seem to show any interest in it so I doubt it's their doing.

[LameFox]

Total Time has just hit 14 hours. Some key points:

- a Xenon "factory" that started building near the beginning of the game, and was fully supplied early on, still hasn't finished building yet. It almost feels like their build speed has a decimal point in the wrong place.
- Emperor's Pride and Matrix #598 have both run out of Ore in their Wharves. The fact Xenon have no L miner is probably doing them no favours here, because they rely fully on the wharf.
- Matrix #9 is bucking the trend and being slightly shorter on energy cells than other resources. It isn't trying to expand though so I can't tell if that helps it much.
- Teladi are taking Turquoise Sea. The Xenon there have the resources to fight back but they never made much of an effort in that area, only starting to build a defence platform they never completed (it was destroyed). They tried to build in Company Regard but lost that one, too.
- Atiya's Misfortune is well stocked to build ships, but still hasn't put any Ore in the defence platform in Frontier Edge. Luckily for them ANT isn't building there yet.
- There's a (supplied) Xenon Defence Platform in Getsu Fune, but at the rate they build, I expect it will be killed first because TER have that sector.
- Savage Spur is well stocked, but Matrix #79B has less than 50% Ore in both Wharf and Shipyard. Its other resources are plentiful.



UPDATE:

Now at 21 hrs.

- They FINALLY turned that factory into a Solar Power Plant, and even sent Ore to the Defence Platform in Frontier Edge. Neither station is finished yet but the first module of the Defence Platform completed, so they've technically taken a sector.
- There has been some kind of inversion in Atiya's Misfortune: Energy Cells are now scarcer while Ore is more plentiful. Unclear why. Whatever happened, it presumably facilitated building the Defence Platform at last.
- Lost the foothold in Getsu Fune as predicted.
- Matrix #598 occasionally gets SE reinforcements from other Xenon sectors, but Emperor's Pride appears too remote for this. It's down to a single Power Distribution SE, which I've also observed mining, presumably out of desperation.
- Other Xenon regions appear unchanged.

UPDATE 2:

Hit the 1 day mark.

- Xenon have fairly abruptly decided to take Mists of Artemis, which is quite strange because they hadn't bothered with it three days into my 7.0 game.
- Likewise, despite using the same seed, I'm seeing the Commonwealth factions have more issues sourcing hull parts than they did before.
- Emperor's Pride still only has a single SE, which is now back to distributing power as its name suggested it was originally made for.

Other than that, things are looking pretty stable. It's actually better than I expected: maybe my minimal operations in 7.0 had more of an impact on the economy than I thought, and by being completely outside of it like this, the commonwealth failed to break the Xenon in their initial period of fragility. On the other hand, that game was 3 days in, so maybe things will stabilize in the Commonwealth and the Xenon will start to suffer again.

[LameFox]

Well, a final update.

I started a new 7.0 game (same seed, again) with the intent of being totally hands-off so that the Xenon might survive. While I did notice more of a hull parts shortage within the Commonwealth, the Xenon were still losing systems extremely rapidly in a way I didn't see during the previous test. I didn't even need to use SETA during my few hours of play to quickly see them losing systems in 7.0 while in my 7.10 test they were still holding out after the first day. I don't know what about 7.10 is making this difference but the contrast was stark.

Consequently I'm just going to abandon my current saves and wait until 7.10 is out of beta.

[PersonyPerson]

I did a test of the Xenon in 7.10 Beta 3 with an AI Only save, because I was trying to figure out the cause of the "Xenon defence station not being built and preventing Xenon Expansion" issue.

The core of the issue is that the Xenon stations are not getting Ore, which is why they're not building.

I initially assumed that the issue was caused because the Xenon miners are strictly prioritising Ore for their Ship building facilities above station construction (in where it really gives the impression of a strong correlation of this happening REALLY well) as I personally witnessed stations on one front initially get neglected, but then all filled with Ore as soon as the Wharf/Shipyard was full of Ore. However, when I raised the issue with the devs, they said it's down to more specific issues unique to the Xenon that mimic that kind of behaviour, but it's not that behaviour itself. I didn't ask to elaborate, but it would probably be hard for them to explain and the answer would probably involve a lot of technicalities that would be beyond my understanding anyway.

They are also hesitant to make changes in this area because "fixing" the issue has the potential to cause huge ramifications for the entire gate network. The existing balance is delicate and anything that makes the Xenon significantly stronger has to be done carefully and at a slow pace, and looking at some of the results of a strong Xenon, I don't blame them. There really isn't a lot of leeway to have which determines if the Xenon snowballs or if they get squashed early. Very slight changes can have THAT much of an impact.

Speaking of strong Xenon's, here's the map of this particular AI Only save, 129 in-game hours in (on SETA):
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... rbox=false
The Xenon took Heretic's End, are wiping out Morning Star III from the North and are contesting Hatikvah's Choice I from Tharka's Cascade XV, so they essentially have a circular dominion over the NW quadrant of the map.

This is atypical from the saves and reports I made during the 7.00 beta, which I made on this thread:
viewtopic.php?t=461932
In where most of them resulted in mostly Status quo gate networks, or a slight retraction of the Xenon. Nothing that's inherently game breaking.

The 7.10 AI Only save is without a doubt the strongest Xenon I've seen without direct player intervention. The only thing I changed was that I made Heretic's End available to contest, but aside from Heretic's End itself and the Xenon getting Morning Star III from the NW rather than the SE, it hasn't made much of a difference. I still plan to continue watching it, because it still hasn't stalemated yet. The Xenon are still pushing into Family Nhuut and are having fights with the Boron.