[Improvement] Patrol/Policing behavior

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Xkuka
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[Improvement] Patrol/Policing behavior

Post by Xkuka »

Both commands are of very limited use for the player. Many players do not even own their own sectors, and even if they do, mining ships most often travel to faction owned sectors.

The role of the patrol is incredible useless as they only engage hostiles they stumble upon. In no world I could imagine the lack of response this role has to events in the sector. A patrol should respond to distress calls from allied ships.
The defend position command is way to limited in its range for effective response to events. You can basically see that a patrol in a Khaak infested sector Never responds to Khaak attacks, never react to pirate activity.

The role of the police to scan for illegal Items is even more useless. The player can only employ police in owned sectors and then what should they do? If the player owned police engages faction ships the only result is a loss of the relationship.
The police also does not respond to distress calls and only acts on events they stumble upon.

Instead, the police should look out for events and activate patrols to engage to threats. Even if a player has a patrol force in NPC territory and the relation is good enough, the player patrols should help the local faction to respond to threats, and vice versa.

Of course there need to be some settings. Having a light fighter patrol engaging a Khaak station of Xenon K would be incredible pointless. There would have to be settings as to what kind of theat a patrol force is allow to engage.



I know this is a complex issue and has deep balancing implications. It also touches on piracy and other things. But I would say if you look into this you might find it also interesting to make piracy a better feature, a real threat instead of randomly spawned Minotaur's magically dropping traders out of the travel drive and make them using a flee command that most often is so bad that the trader would be better off to just ignore the dumb and slow Minotaur... Piracy is just an annoyance and lacks any grounded logic. The police force is not uncovering pirate ships even if it is obvious that a Boron would not fly a Minotaur around.
Pirates should have their challenges too, and therefore also should pose a challenge. Regular raid attacks on poorly defended stations should be a thing. Piracy in core sectors should be almost impossible on the other hand. But often you can see that a SCA ship mindlessly kills a trader only to get wiped from the strong patrol right next to it.
With a proper patrol and police force you can make piracy great again as well.

And I miss the good ol pirat asteroids in the outskirts of some sectors...


Perhaps all this is too much of a change for X4, but at least put it on the list of things that have to better in X5. :roll:

Thanks.
Caedes91
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Re: [Improvement] Patrol/Policing behavior

Post by Caedes91 »

They introduced the "postion-patrol" behaviour for carrier fleets in 5.0 or 6.0 patch. Don't remember exactly when. For years many (me included) wondered, whether they were unable or unwilling to fix the normal patrol behaviour. But then I read somewhere from an actual dev, that the patrol behaviour is working as intended. The patrol ships only engaging targets in their own radar range is intended. The reasoning was, that the Faction-AI is just like the player, they notice an attack and react like the player, by directing their ships there. It's not their patrol ships reacting on their own to an attack from outside their radar range, but the AI themself sending them there.

Only difference is, that the AI is a computer working without delay, while you the player are lesser organic being. This is why it seems wrong to you. I believe it was on the steam forum. Their advice at that time was, to spam more ships to a patrol fleet, so they spread out more and therefore increase the probability to engage hostiles. Or use the new behaviour for carrier groups.

To me, this was a lazy copout, since for some reason, your ships comm you from across the galaxy when under attack or something else, but are not able to comm the patrol from your own faction in the SAME sector just 10km outside their range. Imagine this behaviour from your own police in the real world.

TLDR: I wouldn't get my hopes up.
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Xkuka
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Re: [Improvement] Patrol/Policing behavior

Post by Xkuka »

Caedes91 wrote: Mon, 15. Jul 24, 21:16 ...since for some reason, your ships comm you from across the galaxy when under attack or something else, but are not able to comm the patrol from your own faction in the SAME sector just 10km outside their range. Imagine this behaviour from your own police in the real world.
Agree. Also the fact that you somehow lose faction relationship if you attack a ship that is not visible to anyone. But if you manage to board an Asgard without damaging any modules for some reason this goes totally unpunished... :gruebel:

Just a few ingame hours earlier I have delivered 3 39million worth Osaka's to the Argon in a Xenon mission to deliver combat ships, equipped with missile launchers only, but no ammo, and a full crew of service members, only to send my marines on the ships right after I delivered them and re-aquired them. That's a raw profit of 60 millions and the police ships of the Argon were watching. (Just sending maintenance crews, nothing to see here... :D )
Actually the Osaka's went on police patrol them selves.
Yes, boarding the leader of a police patrol turns every sector patrol leader red, but as long you avoid actual combat they calm down again and nothing happens. And boarding a subordinate causes no reaction besides the boarded ship.

I think such should be possible, maybe if the respective ships were outside of the home territory. Like an expeditionary force. Either way, it is incoherent and in my books these things should have at least some resemblance with real life logic.
Zaihbot
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Re: [Improvement] Patrol/Policing behavior

Post by Zaihbot »

Since the patrol behavior is somehow "working as intended" I'd like to have at least one or two checkbox for "attack stations" and "attack capital ships".

Patrolling is okaaaay until the fighters find an enemy station (Kha'ak...) and decide to attack it.
LameFox
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Re: [Improvement] Patrol/Policing behavior

Post by LameFox »

Would be interesting if there was a way to coordinate patrolling ships. Sort of like position defence, in that you have something that unifies them, but unlike it in that they retain the normal patrol behaviour that moves around instead of relying on pre-defined locations. Maybe a station module you can build on your defence platforms and assign them to patrol for that station, so that it coordinates between them and they all respond if any of them detects something.
***modified***
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Xkuka
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Re: [Improvement] Patrol/Policing behavior

Post by Xkuka »

Zaihbot wrote: Tue, 16. Jul 24, 03:15 Since the patrol behavior is somehow "working as intended" I'd like to have at least one or two checkbox for "attack stations" and "attack capital ships".

Patrolling is okaaaay until the fighters find an enemy station (Kha'ak...) and decide to attack it.
Absolutely!
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Xkuka
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Re: [Improvement] Patrol/Policing behavior

Post by Xkuka »

LameFox wrote: Tue, 16. Jul 24, 03:27 Would be interesting if there was a way to coordinate patrolling ships. Sort of like position defence, in that you have something that unifies them, but unlike it in that they retain the normal patrol behaviour that moves around instead of relying on pre-defined locations. Maybe a station module you can build on your defence platforms and assign them to patrol for that station, so that it coordinates between them and they all respond if any of them detects something.
I was talking with a friend about such an option and how static defence stations just don't cut it. In the sort of a hangar bay for fighters that can go anywhere in the sector where they are needed and return for rearming and repairs. Or some sort of functionality carriers have with position defence. But I am afraid that sort of thing is way over the top for what Egosoft is intending to do for the game.
Or we are just not asking for that stuff loud enough... :D
flywlyx
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Re: [Improvement] Patrol/Policing behavior

Post by flywlyx »

Caedes91 wrote: Mon, 15. Jul 24, 21:16 The reasoning was, that the Faction-AI is just like the player, they notice an attack and react like the player, by directing their ships there. It's not their patrol ships reacting on their own to an attack from outside their radar range, but the AI themself sending them there.
NPCs have sector security, but players have to handle everything themselves.
They should at least provide sector security for player-owned sectors.

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