There is no diplomacy? We have a New Endgame Crises but no diplomacy??? :Poll

[hebrux]

In X4: Foundations, you can start your journey from various game starts and take on different roles, from a lone pilot to an empire manager. You can fly every ship personally, build space stations, and upgrade your fleets to massive proportions. However, the lack of diplomatic mechanics makes it feel like your influence isn’t acknowledged.

While the game emphasizes trading, fighting, and building, the absence of diplomatic interactions leaves us players feeling disconnected from the larger universe.

Perhaps future updates will address this issue, but for now, we're left navigating the cosmos as wealthy pilots rather than a recognized empires...


TLDR:
What's the point in allowing us to build an empire if no recognizes me as an empire?
After I create a faction name, take over 5 sectors and have over 1 billion in assets from ships and stations, when I'm greeted by another faction they're like "Greetings Pilot" (-_-)
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Link to original Steam discussion: https://steamcommunity.com/app/392160/d ... 1719866935
Link to Reddit Discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/X4Foundations/ ... t/lgmqnji/
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*My suggestions:

• A new game metric would be tracked that follows the power or net worth of the player and how many sectors they own. This will be the player's "Faction Level"

• Once the player reaches a certain net worth and owns at least 1 sector and has at least 1 station, they should be considered a minor faction. "Faction Level" = Minor Faction

• Once the player reaches a certain higher net worth and owns at least 20 stations along with at least 5 sectors, they should be considered a Major Faction (like Argon). "Faction Level" = Major Faction

• In the Factions window, depending on the "Faction Level" of the player, the player has the options to negotiate with the other factions. Some options are disabled until an appropriate "Faction Level" is reached by the player.

*Potential Negotiations the player with the appropriate "Faction Level" can initiate with AI Factions:

• Trade agreements --- Both factions agree to trade their wares at discounted prices to each other and increase trade volume

• Trade sectors --- Factions can trade any extra NON-CORE sectors (Argon Prime is a Core Sector) that they have to each other.

• Non-Aggression-Pacts--- Factions are prohibited from attacking one another (if friendly fire accidentally occurs, an apology is automatically issued). Or maybe there is no damage until the Non-Aggression Pact is removed (kind of cheaty but friendly fire leading to wars is already an annoying mechanic in the game)

• Alliances --- Factions are joined at the hip. My enemies are your and your enemies are mine.

*Suggested Galaxy Update:

• Dynamic War system where old friends can become enemies and enemies can become friends (this functionality can be optional to the player - in the interest of maintaining galaxy balance)

• Ability to Totally Destroy a faction without them Necroing back to life after all their ships and stations have been destroyed. Any associated missions from the dead faction will also be disabled and unavailable to the player due to faction destruction.

• Add a "Maintain Maximum Fire Distance" option for fleets so that they don't try to get close to their enemy targets and take damage, when they could have safely engaged from a distance.

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Update:

I spoke to Bernd Lehahn, CEO and Founder of Egosoft (zav42) over Reddit and this is what he said:
"Thank you. Currently not in the office, but we have seen this thread and follow similar ones frequently. We have a long list of ideas for diplomacy related improvements in the future but I can not promise what exactly will be implemented (yet). Thanks for forwarding it to me!"

The goal was to bring this issue up to the change makers at Egosoft, and I'd say we accomplished this goal.

I just hope that Diplomacy is implemented in a sandbox friendly way like how I described in my OP.

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[adeine]

Ability to Totally Destroy a faction without them Necroing back to life after all their ships and stations have been destroyed. Any associated mission from the dead faction will also be disabled and unavailable to the player due to faction destruction.

I've been thinking about this, and a simple yet effective solution might be to change it so when a faction has no sector ownership left they cannot hire builders from other factions except their own and the player.

This would allow the player to nurse a faction back to health from 0 if they're allied, but avoid factions from being in perpetual cockroach mode unless you wipe out literally every faction they're not hostile with.

[hebrux]

Ability to Totally Destroy a faction without them Necroing back to life after all their ships and stations have been destroyed. Any associated mission from the dead faction will also be disabled and unavailable to the player due to faction destruction.

I've been thinking about this, and a simple yet effective solution might be to change it so when a faction has no sector ownership left they cannot hire builders from other factions except their own and the player.

This would allow the player to nurse a faction back to health from 0 if they're allied, but avoid factions from being in perpetual cockroach mode unless you wipe out literally every faction they're not hostile with.

That's a smart idea! It seems even possible with a mod too, though I'd prefer for this to be in the main game so a future update doesn't break the mod

[LameFox]

I'd set my expectations low. The Endgame "Crisis" didn't turn out to be all that much and it's arguably less complicated to pull off.

Personally I'd be happy if we could at least resolve some longstanding issues like having a way to de-escalate from accidental hostility, and avoid being blamed for repelling attacks against us, or for policing actions in our own territory. And I'd be genuinely very surprised if they even do that.

[Falcrack]

Rather than number of stations being the metric for faction levels, I feel it should be based on total station value. One single megafactory can be a significant amount of faction power.

[hebrux]

Rather than number of stations being the metric for faction levels, I feel it should be based on total station value. One single megafactory can be a significant amount of faction power.

That's a good point. Maybe overall Net Worth and atleast a single station and sector should be the determination factor.
There will have to be some algorithm that incorporates all properties yet accounts for the fact that some players will only have 1 or 2 mega stations with 1 billion net worth including their ships

[chew-ie]

No - there is diplomacy available to work on the subfractions. Additionally I'd rather not have a 4X-gamey dynamic systems that gives the player control over the main factions standing to each other.

The player shouldn't be omnipresent, X4 should stay a universe simulation which doesn't center around the player - no matter how many credits / assets he is able to get.

[ProjectDanny]

No - there is diplomacy available to work on the subfractions. Additionally I'd rather not have a 4X-gamey dynamic systems that gives the player control over the main factions standing to each other.

The player shouldn't be omnipresent, X4 should stay a universe simulation which doesn't center around the player - no matter how many credits / assets he is able to get.

Then Egosoft can make a toggle so those who don't want diplomacy can simply turn it off.

[LameFox]

No - there is diplomacy available to work on the subfractions. Additionally I'd rather not have a 4X-gamey dynamic systems that gives the player control over the main factions standing to each other.

The player shouldn't be omnipresent, X4 should stay a universe simulation which doesn't center around the player - no matter how many credits / assets he is able to get.

It crossed that rubicon already by moving to a full production sim IMO... we can violently wipe out the universe if we so choose. The '4X gamey' stuff makes sense in the context of us existing as a force of that kind within the sim.

Plus, they already let you control faction standings to each other, just in a less dynamic and highly scripted way. A big part of each game for me is setting up the universe to have the wars I prefer.

[chew-ie]

No - there is diplomacy available to work on the subfractions. Additionally I'd rather not have a 4X-gamey dynamic systems that gives the player control over the main factions standing to each other.

The player shouldn't be omnipresent, X4 should stay a universe simulation which doesn't center around the player - no matter how many credits / assets he is able to get.

Then Egosoft can make a toggle so those who don't want diplomacy can simply turn it off.

Stop being selfish and making the game static

How about just acknowledge my preference without calling me selfish? This is a poll after all!

[MKL81]

No - there is diplomacy available to work on the subfractions. Additionally I'd rather not have a 4X-gamey dynamic systems that gives the player control over the main factions standing to each other.

The player shouldn't be omnipresent, X4 should stay a universe simulation which doesn't center around the player - no matter how many credits / assets he is able to get.

What kind of diplomacy is available? As for X4 being "proper" universe simulation that doesn't center around the player - actually sooner or later the game centers more and more around the player, and the whole simulation is created from the very beginning in a way that player is almost supposed to step in and influence factions to help them and the economy. You can literally wipe out whole galaxy in you feel like it, how is that "universe simulation which doesn't center around the player"?

[chew-ie]

No - there is diplomacy available to work on the subfractions. Additionally I'd rather not have a 4X-gamey dynamic systems that gives the player control over the main factions standing to each other.

The player shouldn't be omnipresent, X4 should stay a universe simulation which doesn't center around the player - no matter how many credits / assets he is able to get.

What kind of diplomacy is available? As for X4 being "proper" universe simulation that doesn't center around the player - actually sooner or later the game centers more and more around the player, and the whole simulation is created from the very beginning in a way that player is almost supposed to step in and influence factions to help them and the economy. You can literally wipe out whole galaxy in you feel like it, how is that "universe simulation which doesn't center around the player"?

Basically all plots with ties to the Hatikvah plot / Dal Busta are part of the diplomatic subsystem of X4. It has a non-gamey interface and allows long-lasting effects on the subfactions without changing the main factions diplomatic status (which would be a tad over the top for a player to be able to destabilse the whole universe).

About that totally unrelated point of a player being able to annihilate the whole universe - this is a side effect of the x series not imposing rules on the player. Take it and leave it - it has nothing to do with the diplomatic settings between the races. You as a player faction can be an asshole and declare war on all. If one wants that - one can.

tl;dr: diplomacy is in the game, just no carbon copy of other systems and it has a non-gamey interface.

[Socratatus]

I'm all for diplomacy between AI factions.

The problem is doing it right. I've ran several games which have diplomacy and it's usually prettty bad and easily cheesed by the Player or the AI simply has a very one track mind to its decisions.

To do diplomacy right would take a LOT of work or watch the complaining that would ensue. It would be even harder for Egosoft than adding the modding ability to npc clothing!

[MKL81]

Basically all plots with ties to the Hatikvah plot / Dal Busta are part of the diplomatic subsystem of X4. It has a non-gamey interface and allows long-lasting effects on the subfactions without changing the main factions diplomatic status (which would be a tad over the top for a player to be able to destabilse the whole universe).

tl;dr: diplomacy is in the game, just no carbon copy of other systems and it has a non-gamey interface.

This is not diplomacy, it doesn't work like actual in-game mechanics. These are just just predefined, scripted story-telling events that you can complete in a way developers intend you to complete. Nothing to do with actual diplomacy feature. This is like saying X4 has a fully fledged racing game in it only because you have 1 or 2 predefined, scripted race missions.

[chew-ie]

Basically all plots with ties to the Hatikvah plot / Dal Busta are part of the diplomatic subsystem of X4. It has a non-gamey interface and allows long-lasting effects on the subfactions without changing the main factions diplomatic status (which would be a tad over the top for a player to be able to destabilse the whole universe).

tl;dr: diplomacy is in the game, just no carbon copy of other systems and it has a non-gamey interface.

This is not diplomacy, it doesn't work like actual in-game mechanics. These are just just predefined, scripted story-telling events that you can complete in a way developers intend you to complete. Nothing to do with actual diplomacy feature. This is like saying X4 has a fully fledged racing game in it only because you have 1 or 2 predefined, scripted race missions.

This is diplomacy in X4 - it was envisioned as diplomacy feature and advertised that way back when it was introduced. X4 is no off-the-shelf 4X - and it never should be one IMHO.

[MKL81]

This is diplomacy in X4 - it was envisioned as diplomacy feature and advertised that way back when it was introduced. X4 is no off-the-shelf 4X - and it never should be one IMHO.

Well, let's agree to disagree then

[jlehtone]

This is not diplomacy, it doesn't work like actual in-game mechanics. These are just just predefined, scripted story-telling events that you can complete in a way developers intend you to complete. Nothing to do with actual diplomacy feature.

First, I do agree in principle with that; couple switches that can be toggled at most once, in one direction, and irreversibly are not quite "diplomacy". The relationships between NPC factions do have only couple possible states and those "stories" are the only way to jump from initial state to some other state. For example, game has HOP and PAR and if player does one specific thing, then there is something else.

However, what we call "diplomacy" should be more accurately defined. Is it the mechanism how NPC factions can change their relationships (ally, quit alliance, start war, surrender) between each other?



And then there is player. IMHO, the player is not a faction. We can raze and "own" every sector, but that does not make us a faction. The OP seems to agree with that.

However, the player is not a member of any faction either. If you were a HOPlite, then your actions were the actions of HOP. If you would gain love of PAR and ARG, then HOP would make peace with PAR and ARG. Alas, we are not members of HOP, let alone influential members, like Cardinals of HOP. If we shoot a Terran, it does not make Terrans to hate HOP more.

[GCU Grey Area]

Voted no. Seems like a complex thing to add which would absorb a lot of dev time that I'd prefer used on other aspects of the game. Also have a strong preference for X4's current plot-based approach to adjusting relationships between factions. In this regard would very much prefer dev time to be used to create more plots with which to influence factions, particularly TEL and/or MIN since neither faction currently has a plot based around them. It's much more in keeping with the way I play X4, more as an RPG than a 4X game; the plots provide surreptitious means to mess with the factions, rather than clicking on buttons when certain thresholds have been achieved (frankly the latter sounds rather dull).

[mr.WHO]

I'd love diplomacy and espionage system from X3:FL.

[Falcrack]

The game needs a sandbox mode, without the regular campaigns, where ideas like this can be incorporated without worrying about affecting storylines. A game mode where things are allowed to go nuts and become imbalanced, where chaos is allowed to happen.