Jump Drives - 6 Years Later, Still Nothing?

[lordmuck]

Big fleets, small fleets, is irrelevant, you still need way more ships that you would need if jumpdrives were present. You would have even more nice frame rates if jumpdrives were present, because you would need fewer ships...hmm, so the removal of jumpdrives actually decreased the game performance, because the player need more ships to position around the universe , one more reason for me to resent the change.

This did cross my mind, rather than have a few hundred S/M ships travelling through sectors etc as they would get to the area I need them in a few minutes rather than 20-30 minutes with a carrier/aux. FPS is like ROFL, "AI" is like ROFL faffaround and straglers. Having your ships "unloaded from render" (docked) and not moving does help.

I've not seen much reason to use carriers or aux ships due to this slowness, rather just select the S/Ms and click a station rearm/repair. But when you can have a carrier/aux jump in and do its job, that would be amazing to have as part of the fleet! Currently, they just seem to be an expensive paperweight :/. And like I said above its not a free thing, you need to place jump beacons + adv sat (defend them if in enemy territory) so you or an AI-controlled ship has to get there already, the spool time + CD after use, fuel. i get that the devs have their vision of how they want it to be and trying to fit it in with lore, but it just does not translate to good gameplay and now with timelines, it can be a good excuse to get a mission to bring back that lost tech and research it in our main game + make the DLC more attractive to buy.

I know I'm just wasting time on this subject :/

[Ragnos28]

I can understand many of the arguments for and against the jump drive, from the players point of view. But what would it do to the generic 'strategic' AI of the factions?

Where is the sense of defending fleets and even more defense station, if a hostile fleet can arrive without warning? Sure, there would be limits when, how and where you can jump to, but still...

In many (good) Science Fiction stories they have rules for anything like interstellar travel. Often used are the 'jump points', which are mostly outside the core of a star system, which then makes it necessary to fly (sub light) toward the point, before you can FTL travel. For stories this is nice, but how to optimize it for a game, where player time and action are a limiting factor. The jump gates are similar to the jump points, you have to fly toward the jump gate, before you can use it. If you can jump from (nearly) everywhere, there will be problems I think. But I have to admit, I never played any X game with a jump drive...

Well, like veterans of X3TC remember, the limiting rule of JP was that the exit point of the jump was always a gate. So, in theory the player could still "plug" gates of interest with defence stations and fleets, just like is possible atm.
And if only carriers would be able to use it, the traditional enemy, the Xenon, would not, and if hostile faction carriers would be able to use it, one, defence stations and fleets would still function as defence, plus the JP drive could be a targetable module, so no "but they pew pew me, then jump before I can retaliate, booo".

But again, this is more of a "fanfiction" talk, because the mind of the devs is set, it is what it is. So, I'm forced to "print " super carriers and their fighter complement, because I think is faster to build a new one, than having one move across the universe.

[Axeface]

My god this damn subject.
JD obliterates any sense of structure to the universe. It has to remain a thing of the past.

[Ragnos28]

I've not seen much reason to use carriers or aux ships due to this slowness, rather just select the S/Ms and click a station rearm/repair. But when you can have a carrier/aux jump in and do its job, that would be amazing to have as part of the fleet! Currently, they just seem to be an expensive paperweight :/. And like I said above its not a free thing, you need to place jump beacons + adv sat (defend them if in enemy territory) so you or an AI-controlled ship has to get there already, the spool time + CD after use, fuel. i get that the devs have their vision of how they want it to be and trying to fit it in with lore, but it just does not translate to good gameplay and now with timelines, it can be a good excuse to get a mission to bring back that lost tech and research it in our main game + make the DLC more attractive to buy.

Yeah, case in point, one of my Sharks is stationed in Ocean of Fantasy, the sector I have my HQ in. I get an alert, that my miners in Atreus Cloud are being attack by boron patrols because of a false positive for illegal wares (the second time that it happen, first time I dismiss it as a fluke). Miners start dying left and right, nothing I could do, if I want to send the Shark to defend them, well they be dead and buried by the time the Shark get there (Atreus Clouds is...in a galaxy far far far away ). So, here I am "printing" another Shark, "printing" fighters for it, and deploying it in Atreus Clouds "just in case"...yeah, being tactical by using the power of money.

Personally, I enjoy super carrier game play (when all the birds are in the "belly", out of sight out of mind, plus the other perks that automate the use of fighters), but like you said moving one across the universe is really slow, so I print "sister" super carriers in locations were I can get some xenon action and teleport there for my combat fun. At least the boron Shark with its instant travel drive reduce traveling time a bit, but like it can be seen from my funny story, is not enough.

I know I'm just wasting time on this subject :/

Yeah, this is just "fanfiction" from our part, the devs mind is set, the dye is cast, and so on.
Welp, at least I have the money to build the adittional ships required by the shift in paradigm.

[lordmuck]

My god this damn subject.
JD obliterates any sense of structure to the universe. It has to remain a thing of the past.

Just don't use it, its that simple don't deny it for others to use in their game. I don't even care if the factions use it or not, the pace of the game is killing me. Cigarettes are sold in shops, is anyone forcing you to buy them?

I've not seen much reason to use carriers or aux ships due to this slowness, rather just select the S/Ms and click a station rearm/repair. But when you can have a carrier/aux jump in and do its job, that would be amazing to have as part of the fleet! Currently, they just seem to be an expensive paperweight :/. And like I said above its not a free thing, you need to place jump beacons + adv sat (defend them if in enemy territory) so you or an AI-controlled ship has to get there already, the spool time + CD after use, fuel. i get that the devs have their vision of how they want it to be and trying to fit it in with lore, but it just does not translate to good gameplay and now with timelines, it can be a good excuse to get a mission to bring back that lost tech and research it in our main game + make the DLC more attractive to buy.

Yeah, case in point, one of my Sharks is stationed in Ocean of Fantasy, the sector I have my HQ in. I get an alert, that my miners in Atreus Cloud are being attack by boron patrols because of a false positive for illegal wares (the second time that it happen). Miners start dying left and right, nothing I could do, if I want to send the Shark to defend them, well they be dead and buried by the time the Shark get there (Atreus Clouds is...in a galaxy far far far away ). So, here I am "printing" another Shark, "printing" fighters for it, and deploying it in Atreus Clouds "just in case"...yeah, being tactical by using the power of money.

Personally, I enjoy super carrier game play (when all the birds are in the "belly", out of sight out of mind, plus the other perks that automate the use of fighters), but like you said moving one across the universe is really slow, so I print "sister" super carriers in locations were I can get some xenon action and teleport there for my combat fun. At least the boron Shark with its instant travel drive reduce traveling time a bit, but like it can be seen from my funny story, is not enough.

I know I'm just wasting time on this subject :/

Yeah, this is just "fanfiction" from our part, the devs mind is set, the dye is cast, and so on.
Welp, at least I have the money to build the adittional ships required by the shift in paradigm.
[/quote]

Yeah we can only fantasise xD

[gbjbaanb]

TBH I think there's a big disconnect bnetween the whole set of arguments.

The feel of making things big, this is still wrong. A feeling of vastness of space comes from viewing the sectors. if you see a planet in the distance in sector 1, go through a gate and the same planet is close while you're near a moon and then go through another gate and the same planet is vast and in your face as you orbit it, that's a sense of scale. Adding tedium by making a player stare at the screen while their ship slowly crawls to a distant object at a snails pace is not a solution. Nor is it good gamplay. And adding a highway that speeds up the whole process so that distant object can be travelled to significantly faster just destroys the initial idea of vastness. Everything is close suddenly. its 2 bad solutions that counteract each ther.

Travel drive isn't much of a solution either - its just a boost to go a bit faster. Its a helpful one as it reduces the tedium of travel but this could be resolved just by making ships faster or putting the stations closer together and the sector smaller. If distance to make things seem vast is desired, then making ships go very fast to ensure that distance is irrelevant makes the initial position invalid. You want something to be far away and also quick to get to, might as well make it closer.

Highways are a problem all in all, fast travel and you can be the other side of the galaxy in seconds. There is no sense of vastness, you can be in Argon space for breakfast and Paranid space for brunch, back to Argon space for lunch. I think highways were a mistake. Jumpdrives at least had a limitation of using energy to make the jumps! They also remove the sense of a living universe - in X3 there were many sectors you could see the trade route being travelled as NPC ships went about their business, the routes were cut by everyone moving from 1 gate to another naturally. I liked seeing those ant trails of traders and patrols. Highways, you can barely see any life in them. Occasionally a xenon will use them and that's the only time they appear to exist as activity. A good way of having the concept perhaps is to rework travel drives to be highway drives - in that a travel drive, after much calc and warm up, would then create its own invisible highway and travel along it. That might be a better solution to all long-distance travel without the boost mechanism.

I think absolutely the way to make the game appear big is to group sectors and have a distinction between solar system travel and between stars travel. One needs gates, its quick but it should be obvious you've gone somewhere else. In-system though, you can have distance via accelerators that can give you the jump between areas. So you have clusters of close stuff that your ships can traverse quickly for gameplay, and then have distance via these minigates to give the impression of the vastness of space. And note, each subsector here needs to be near something of interest, usually a moon or a planet - a station in the middle of nowhere is a bit meaningless.

I don't think there's any other way around this. But then jumpdrives, you can have them but in a manner that can take you from one gate to another even via several at once. You still have to "slowboat" it to a destination closer to a planet in a subsector, but at least you get to jump to the big sector entrance without having to fly to a gate or highway at the start. That might be the best compromise, particularly if you restrict it to larger ships. Maybe its even time to dump the lore and start again, only this time remove gates and have XL transport carriers (like ferries) take small ships from one sector cluster to another.

[StoneLegionYT]

6 Years later and we are still having to repeat ourselves that jump drives are not needed and even wanted. Sure might be fun mechanic, but would unbalance and unstable the universe. The Teleport system alone fixed the issue of wanting be part of a fight directly.

[flywlyx]

6 Years later and we are still having to repeat ourselves that jump drives are not needed and even wanted. Sure might be fun mechanic, but would unbalance and unstable the universe. The Teleport system alone fixed the issue of wanting be part of a fight directly.

A wrong decision is still wrong even after 6 years.
Teleportation is essentially fast travel in most sandbox games, and in X4, players can not fast travel with their equipments(ships). Isn't that strange?

The entire imbalance theory doesn't make sense. Teleportation will enhance the performance of L ships, meaning fewer ships are needed to run the universe. I'd call that hitting two birds with one stone.

[Petroph]

Jump drives were not "left out" of X4, they were removed for reasons that were explained in quite a lot of detail when X4 was first revealed. Rather than repeat that explanation in new words, I'll quote one of the lengthy posts I made about it at the time:

Very little has changed since then. There are still people who disagree with the decision, but from our point of view we are satisfied that it has had the desired effect and has improved the areas of gameplay that we set out to improve. We therefore have no plans to change that decision.

I totally understand the reasoning now, which is something I clearly missed during the initial release 6 Years ago. I can respect the decision to leave them out, though it is disappointing nonetheless. Based on the various replies it does seem I hit a sour topic. I tried asking about this on the steam discussion boards over the years and didn't get much of any feedback of anything since most players were new and didn't seem to even know it was a thing based on the older games. Guess I personally don't like features being cut that were a feature in all previous games only for them to be removed because of a design decision. I can respect that as the game overall is fantastic, I just wish that it was perhaps an option to enable, I enjoy my space fantasies my way .

Sense of scale, to me, is based on how long it takes to get from one end of the allowable galactic map to the other. When the game first came out, it wasn't a huge deal as there were much less sectors then there are now. But just seems like having an "option" for that would be a nice thing to have and would not be forced upon those who clearly dislike the notion of a jump drive.

I think my next question is whenever, in the distant future and potentially X5. Is this reasoning going to remain in place? I feel players should be able to enjoy their play styles they way they want within the fantastic universe that is the X Series. This is my feelings on the matter, feelings that clearly some don't really care for.

Edit: I should mention. If you make it a DLC just for jump drives. I'de buy it.

[humility925]

My god this damn subject.
JD obliterates any sense of structure to the universe. It has to remain a thing of the past.

Only way jump drive is remain of the past is there gameplay that help ship avoid lost in battle or quicker get there to help other allied or own ship, but people had issues in gameplay that they do not like lost personal ship, especially paintskin or custom upgrade ship that player had no desire to lost that, and not like to reload, so they just rather had jump drive to save ship or help other allied ship over reload the game any time.

We do not had that ability in gameplay that help lost personal ship, even travel mode don't help at all, like enemies shooting stop your personal ship flee, or even travel mode don't help get there faster to save life and death situation of ship.

Sure we do had teleport for personal use, but it's will not save your personal custom ship from battle or quick jump over to help your allied ship or your other personal custom ship, especially you do more for that ship by crafting and upgrade ship to 3 level that are very rare hard to find item for upgrade thing.

As long as some people had this issues of gameplay, they would keep pop up time to time.

Of course we could create new idea how to save your personal ship, like said one item allowed you to do travel mode even under enemies' fire/shooting, but it's only work for your personal ship, not your other ship that you control, I guess. but I guess people still bring up time to time, due this issues of gameplay, like would people enjoy gameplay more, by had jumpdrive/or allowed travel mode under enemies under fire, or face of gameover, reload game as travel back to time, or lost all that hard work upgrade custom ship even you person in the game teleport meaning captian go down with ship? Some people don't like that and just prefer jumpdrive or even travel mode under enemies's fire over reload as time travel, I think jumpdrive or allowed travel mode under enemies' fire seem more real, and more enjoyment more than reload the game.

sometime player do not had good favor of battle, this is where jumpdrive or allowed travel mode under enemies's fire make player more enjoyment in long term, much better than reload the game via as time travel something that some player do not like that kind of gameplay is why it's better to had jumpdrive or allowed travel mode under enemies's fire, but you had to buy and install, so that would gave people choice, if people want easy, they can just choice install jump drive, but if people think it's overpower, then don't buy and install jump drive, by choice, take that choice away would make some people not enjoy gameplay in long term, as everyone do not had same desire, same skill, same intelligent, is why had a jumpdrive as option would be better, it's just work in X2 The threat and X3 as well, if it work, why try make it worse?

You might not like jumpdrive or think jumpdrive overpower but not everyone had same mindset like your, to some people, some believe jumpdrive is balanced, not overpower, due different perspective and some people already taste of jumpdrive in X2 and X3 already and knew it's very good gameplay to save their personal ship, not only that but they enjoy it as well.

Funny thing that jumpdrive can be overpower and balanced, like it's very balanced for non-combat slow ship, it's not overpower at all, but if you use it on best of best ship, yes, it's overpower, but if you use on worse of worse ship, it's not overpower, depend on how one use it.

[lordmuck]

6 Years later and we are still having to repeat ourselves that jump drives are not needed and even wanted. Sure might be fun mechanic, but would unbalance and unstable the universe. The Teleport system alone fixed the issue of wanting be part of a fight directly.

If you don't need it or want it DONT USE IT how simple can that be? Why deny it for others who do?

Teleport is not the solution to get into a fight directly when YOU DONT HAVE ANYTHING IN THAT SECTOR. Teleport is just to quickly go talk to some trash npc IF you have a ship docked to said station and also what about players who wish to have a smaller footprint in the game? You are saying have a fleet at various locations in the system to tp to, so you are also saying, have billions of credits burned into ships...which takes days of gameplay, and then if you have all those ships where the hell is the balance if you can wipe sectors out with all those fleets.
Unbalance and unstable?? it's a single-player game and only to be installed on carrier/aux to make them properly useful. Also if you read the prep work idea to utilise JD that I posted you can see that it's not a simple click like teleport IF you have something in the sector to teleport to but now I'm just repeating myself.

Carriers/ Aux are trash without JD. The gameplay is far too slow to get a carrier/aux to a sector to even bother using unless you build it in that sector rofl, or make one per sector with all the fighter ships for it? hahahaha no. BTW if I want quick action Id just go buy the new timelines DLC isn't that its selling point.

JD is not for quick action its to stop people like me from slashing my wrists waiting for it go from A-B, to make carries and aux more attractive to use, that it also goes hand in hand with timelines DLC to retrieve lost tech

[chew-ie]

If you don't need it or want it DONT USE IT how simple can that be? Why deny it for others who do?

Pretty simple - it alters the whole game design. The AI with JD destroys missions by just jumping in (hello X³), the player using it destroys challenges (hello emergency jumps). Not integrating a feature like that and only let the player use it is as cheaty as sinza is.

Those who desperately need it should just mod it in. I'm very glad that Egosoft let the JD behind and evolved the game series in the process.

[lordmuck]

If you don't need it or want it DONT USE IT how simple can that be? Why deny it for others who do?

Pretty simple - it alters the whole game design. The AI with JD destroys missions by just jumping in (hello X³), the player using it destroys challenges (hello emergency jumps). Not integrating a feature like that and only let the player use it is as cheaty as sinza is.

Those who desperately need it should just mod it in. I'm very glad that Egosoft let the JD behind and evolved the game series in the process.

Who said the AI can have it xD I was strictly talking about player use only. Its something unique to the player to resarch+mission based/Timeline DLC. Simply due to the way it needs to be used with nav beacon to jump to etc... Mods brake the game/you get 0 support when modded and modders do not need to update the mod so it keeps working with future patches/updates/dlc

[BlackRain]

If you don't need it or want it DONT USE IT how simple can that be? Why deny it for others who do?

Pretty simple - it alters the whole game design. The AI with JD destroys missions by just jumping in (hello X³), the player using it destroys challenges (hello emergency jumps). Not integrating a feature like that and only let the player use it is as cheaty as sinza is.

Those who desperately need it should just mod it in. I'm very glad that Egosoft let the JD behind and evolved the game series in the process.

Who said the AI can have it xD I was strictly talking about player use only. Its something unique to the player to resarch+mission based/Timeline DLC. Simply due to the way it needs to be used with nav beacon to jump to etc... Mods brake the game/you get 0 support when modded and modders do not need to update the mod so it keeps working with future patches/updates/dlc

I am glad jump drives are gone and what is the point of this conversation? The decision from Egosoft isn't going to change.

[Ragnos28]

I am glad jump drives are gone and what is the point of this conversation? The decision from Egosoft isn't going to change.

Well, some players are not as glad as you that jump drives are gone, the discussion is about possible advantages/disadvantages of jump drive in regards of X4 gameplay, and even if the decision from Egosoft isn't going to change, we can still express our opinions about it, at least I think we do , if that is not allowed, please let us know.

[xant]

Jumpdrives were popular, but they pretty much completely destroyed both the feeling of size, and the tactical, territory-controlling element of the game. Sure, there are ways to mitigate some of their effect (jump target limitations, range limitations, fuel cost) but none of them remove the fundamental problem that you cannot place an obstacle in the way of an invading fleet in an interesting way. Note that adding another gameplay mechanism to prevent jumpdrives being used doesn't really count as interesting for these purposes; it just stops the jumpdrive from being useful, making it redundant. So, thinking again about which features of a jumpdrive we wanted in the game, and which we didn't, we realised that there were two separate scenarios. One was getting a ship or fleet from A to B, and the other was getting the player from A to B so that they could be "in on the action".

It's funny that you quote space geography as a reason for not having jumpdrives, talk about obstacles against invading fleets, when 7.0 introduces an event that simply ignores all that and spawns ships of all sizes on top of you and your stations.

Rules have to apply to everyone. If the AI gets jumpdrives now, you can't really make a convincing argument against that anymore.

[StoneLegionYT]

6 Years later and we are still having to repeat ourselves that jump drives are not needed and even wanted. Sure might be fun mechanic, but would unbalance and unstable the universe. The Teleport system alone fixed the issue of wanting be part of a fight directly.

If you don't need it or want it DONT USE IT how simple can that be? Why deny it for others who do?

Teleport is not the solution to get into a fight directly when YOU DONT HAVE ANYTHING IN THAT SECTOR. Teleport is just to quickly go talk to some trash npc IF you have a ship docked to said station and also what about players who wish to have a smaller footprint in the game? You are saying have a fleet at various locations in the system to tp to, so you are also saying, have billions of credits burned into ships...which takes days of gameplay, and then if you have all those ships where the hell is the balance if you can wipe sectors out with all those fleets.
Unbalance and unstable?? it's a single-player game and only to be installed on carrier/aux to make them properly useful. Also if you read the prep work idea to utilise JD that I posted you can see that it's not a simple click like teleport IF you have something in the sector to teleport to but now I'm just repeating myself.

Carriers/ Aux are trash without JD. The gameplay is far too slow to get a carrier/aux to a sector to even bother using unless you build it in that sector rofl, or make one per sector with all the fighter ships for it? hahahaha no. BTW if I want quick action Id just go buy the new timelines DLC isn't that its selling point.

JD is not for quick action its to stop people like me from slashing my wrists waiting for it go from A-B, to make carries and aux more attractive to use, that it also goes hand in hand with timelines DLC to retrieve lost tech

If you want it or need it MOD IT how simple can that be? Why force it for others who don't?

[Daemonjax]

While I of course miss the ability to use a jump drive, it arguably makes for better gameplay because you can't just build one blob fleet that can be anywhere at a moment's notice.

And this is something modders can add in along with various balancing options for the player and ai. I don't know how moddable this game is really, since I don't really mod games anymore that are in active development, but a jump drive mod does already exist -- it just hasn't been updated in years (which is why I don't make mods for games in active development, and I'm sure others feel the same).

[Petroph]

And this is something modders can add in along with various balancing options for the player and ai. I don't know how moddable this game is really, since I don't really mod games anymore that are in active development, but a jump drive mod does already exist -- it just hasn't been updated in years (which is why I don't make mods for games in active development, and I'm sure others feel the same).

This is why I'm thinking it really is a feature only wanted by the minority. If it were a mod on the workshop and it was the most subscribed mod of all time, I'm sure this entire thread would have a different general attitude towards the matter. It's pretty clear I'm part of that minority that wants the freedom to have Jump drives personally with my fleets. I am not expecting all the other factions to do it or all ships to have the capability. Would've preferred to research it at the player level and it would have limitations even if it were maby limited to adjacent sectors only with further research to go 2+ sectors adjacent only. Anyways, in the end not much us minority can do to affect a Dev decision.

[BlackRain]

I am glad jump drives are gone and what is the point of this conversation? The decision from Egosoft isn't going to change.

Well, some players are not as glad as you that jump drives are gone, the discussion is about possible advantages/disadvantages of jump drive in regards of X4 gameplay, and even if the decision from Egosoft isn't going to change, we can still express our opinions about it, at least I think we do , if that is not allowed, please let us know.

No one said it wasn't allowed, I just don't understand why the need to get so passionate for something that is not going to change but you do you.