Complex planning

[Sovereign01]

With the newest patch being stated to fix the "add to existing complex" problem I decided to plan my first one, a closed loop designed to provide materials for TOAs. I discovered something I did not expect- having chosen exactly what factories I was going to use in this complex I clicked on the XXL for upgrade level to see what would happen. The result was a catastrophic shortage of Silicon wafers, the XXL mines suddenly being unable to keep up with demand even before the increased energy needs of the extra food factories demanding more crystals and hence still more silicon needed. Since there were no more silicon roids in that system I was SOL.

So for the end products I decided to see what would happen if I was to switch from 5 S-sized factories to 1 XXL one (microchip/computer component/quantum tube), and the numbers added up at XXL. When I decided to see what would happen if I dropped the size to default, the result was a complete shortage of crystals this time.

What I learned is that simply upgrading to larger factory sizes doesn't automatically optimise a complex and that XXL mines cannot handle the surge in silicon demand that upgrading creates. Certainly combining large numbers of small factories into small numbers of big factories works in the planner but cannot be done with actual stations, so I should plan from the start how many factories the XXL version of my complex will actually need. This means I won't need to add any as I go and just have the Silicon/Crystal side upgraded at the start so that the small version will work fine until I can upgrade the rest of the complex. I'm going to need to keep mining the nividium for some time yet!

[Deathifier]

1 XXL factory is the same as 20 S factories so if you optimised around what your XXL mines and power system could support in terms of S size factories and then you bulk upgrade everything to XXL you're going to have some issues.

For rather rough planning guidelines these are my notes from when I built my 127 XXL station self-sufficient complex:
Each 100 yield XXL silicon mine production supports approximately 4 stations that need Silicon Wafers.
Each XXL solar power plant supports approximately 9 regular XXL stations.
Each XXL solar power plant supports approximately 200 yield XXL silicon mine production (or 100 yield plus the 3 support factories for the power plant with a little surplus power).
Each XXL Crystal Fab almost but not quite supports a XXL solar power plant.

For mine yield it is the total combined yield of asteroids so it can be a single 100 yield asteroid or 4 * 25 yield asteroids, there does not seem to be much difference from a big-picture perspective.

I didn't pay much attention to Ore mines however a quick check suggests that ore production is much the same as silicon.

Unless you have a pressing need for immediate mass production it is better to plan around the end-state of your complex and the complex planner lets you easily do so.

[Jimmy C]

For mine yield it is the total combined yield of asteroids so it can be a single 100 yield asteroid or 4 * 25 yield asteroids, there does not seem to be much difference from a big-picture perspective.

There is a difference in how much you would have to spend on upgrades. 4 sets of L to XXL upgrades cost far more than just one set.

[Sovereign01]

The complex itself costs "only" about 230M, with the upgrades to reach the end state the cost is about 1.7 billion. I have put together an "intermediate" state plan where only the minimum upgrades to get everything in the green have been used so the complex will be functional while I get it up to speed.

[Sovereign01]

UPDATE: My complex in its most basic form is up and running, wound it up by filling it with crystals. It's producing small quantities of each TOA material, as well as Flails & Hammers and Fuel & Weed on the side. Gonna need to keep mining and selling Nividium to bankroll the upgrades.

[Deathifier]

Good to hear.

You can disconnect individual stations from a complex so if you end up in a situation where credits are not as big of an issue you can upgrade some to XXL and remove any now-surplus smaller stations.

[Sovereign01]

Good to hear.

You can disconnect individual stations from a complex so if you end up in a situation where credits are not as big of an issue you can upgrade some to XXL and remove any now-surplus smaller stations.

If I've designed this right, in theory it shouldn't need any stations removing, only enlarging. The upgrades are by far and away the most expensive parts, the real question is which products are going to be the most profitable and enable funding the rest of the upgrades?

[Deathifier]

If I've designed this right, in theory it shouldn't need any stations removing, only enlarging. The upgrades are by far and away the most expensive parts, the real question is which products are going to be the most profitable and enable funding the rest of the upgrades?

I'm not sure, someone else may be able to give you a better idea or you may want to play around with the complex planner to get an idea of what items generate what profit (just remember to normalise your data, e.g. to per hour).

For my complex, when looking at single station production from XXL factories, the most valuable outputs are heavy weapons (Plasma Beam Cannon, Fusion Beam Cannon, PPC) which work out to around 4 million per hour per station, and 2GJ shields which do a bit less, but they have 4hr to 5hr cycle times and it takes days to upgrade them to XXL.

Next step down are some of the products used in TOA / Ship / Boarding Pod production - Microchips, Computer Components, Quantum Tubes, Warheads, joined by other products of a semi-advanced nature like Disintegrator Rifles, and some missiles (Shadow, Ghoul). This group produces profit in the range from 1.7m/hr to 2.6m/hr.

The other issue is demand - I could sell my Warheads, but where do I continuously sell ~8000 of them per hour and do so without a mountain of work, ships, or other resources?

I've seen others suggest Energy Bolt Chainguns as they are easy to move and like all weapons, shields, and missiles, you have infinite demand at equipment docks if you sell to a dock which doesn't stock it (e.g. NMMC HQ is my favourite).
Those look like they'd make about 3.5m/hr, so about the same as 2GJ shields and probably a lot easier to upgrade towards XXL.

I found it easier and more fun to generate credits through other means though so I make stuff that I think I'll need and usually only sell some of the surplus weapons direct to a dock and some other items (e.g. Microchips, Disintegrator Rifles) indirectly by loading them on ships scheduled to be sold.

[Sovereign01]

If I've designed this right, in theory it shouldn't need any stations removing, only enlarging. The upgrades are by far and away the most expensive parts, the real question is which products are going to be the most profitable and enable funding the rest of the upgrades?

I'm not sure, someone else may be able to give you a better idea or you may want to play around with the complex planner to get an idea of what items generate what profit (just remember to normalise your data, e.g. to per hour).

For my complex, when looking at single station production from XXL factories, the most valuable outputs are heavy weapons (Plasma Beam Cannon, Fusion Beam Cannon, PPC) which work out to around 4 million per hour per station, and 2GJ shields which do a bit less, but they have 4hr to 5hr cycle times and it takes days to upgrade them to XXL.

Next step down are some of the products used in TOA / Ship / Boarding Pod production - Microchips, Computer Components, Quantum Tubes, Warheads, joined by other products of a semi-advanced nature like Disintegrator Rifles, and some missiles (Shadow, Ghoul). This group produces profit in the range from 1.7m/hr to 2.6m/hr.

The other issue is demand - I could sell my Warheads, but where do I continuously sell ~8000 of them per hour and do so without a mountain of work, ships, or other resources?

I've seen others suggest Energy Bolt Chainguns as they are easy to move and like all weapons, shields, and missiles, you have infinite demand at equipment docks if you sell to a dock which doesn't stock it (e.g. NMMC HQ is my favourite).
Those look like they'd make about 3.5m/hr, so about the same as 2GJ shields and probably a lot easier to upgrade towards XXL.

I found it easier and more fun to generate credits through other means though so I make stuff that I think I'll need and usually only sell some of the surplus weapons direct to a dock and some other items (e.g. Microchips, Disintegrator Rifles) indirectly by loading them on ships scheduled to be sold.

I didn't think of making warheads, I can't imagine needing an ongoing supply unless I really get into boarding, and my marines aren't ready... yet I didn't know upgrades took time, I had assumed they were instant like when placing factories, are they not?

EDIT: Revisiting the complex planner after having built the complex, for some reason the yields of all the mines are showing up as zero and I am unable to remove them or change their upgrade level, meaning it's saying I don't have any silicon or ore. Is this the bug with existing complexes I've been hearing about?

[Jimmy C]

Upgrades being instant would make things too easy. No, each level of upgrade takes an increasing amount of time to take effect, during which the factory is disabled. In addition, each factory has its own time period for each upgrade. For example, the SPP XL to XXL is over 4 hours, while the PBC XL to XXL is over 24 hours. Someone may have compiled the times, but it isn't listed in game, that I know of.

Edit: Boarding is the most lucrative operation in-game. Frigates sell for 20 million and M1 and M2 for over 60. You can do 2 combat missions in an hour that lets you target one or more of these each. I think the only thing even more lucrative is stealing and reselling Single Use Jump Beacons. They 2.2 million each and the steal-dock-sell cycle can be accomplished in less than 30 seconds. Which means one billion credits takes less than 5 hours.

I used to to think I could get away with just buying Warheads as needed. But even though it's so easy to find thousands when I need to, it's such a bother. I've seen that I can add one at L-scale without disrupting my complex and have bought the plans from the Guild. It also has the benefit of consuming the Rimes output when it isn't needed for building other stuff.

I produce Pods in batches of 100 when I'm not building other stuff.

[Sovereign01]

Is it possible to have multiple upgrades in a complex running simultaneously or do they have to be done one at a time?

There's something else going on with the planner, it's now saying I need a whole lot more of Nostrop Oil even when I take out all the Teladi factories. So unless XXL Teladi mines have a hidden Nostrop Oil cost, I'm stumped.

[Jimmy C]

Is it possible to have multiple upgrades in a complex running simultaneously or do they have to be done one at a time?

There's something else going on with the planner, it's now saying I need a whole lot more of Nostrop Oil even when I take out all the Teladi factories. So unless XXL Teladi mines have a hidden Nostrop Oil cost, I'm stumped.

Multiple stations in a complex can be upgraded at the same time. They are treated as separate stations in that case.

[Deathifier]

There's something else going on with the planner, it's now saying I need a whole lot more of Nostrop Oil even when I take out all the Teladi factories. So unless XXL Teladi mines have a hidden Nostrop Oil cost, I'm stumped.

The planner is a bit quirky sometimes, though I thought they fixed the erroneous Nostrop Oil issue in V1.3.

If you're working with an existing complex are you using "add existing complex" (to a blank complex) rather than working from a saved version?

As for the Warheads you probably don't need an XXL station for them as making boarding pods only consumes a small number per hour.
However I upgraded it because eventually it fills up and goes idle anyway and then I have surplus food production that, if I wanted to, I could direct to another product.

[Sovereign01]

There's something else going on with the planner, it's now saying I need a whole lot more of Nostrop Oil even when I take out all the Teladi factories. So unless XXL Teladi mines have a hidden Nostrop Oil cost, I'm stumped.

The planner is a bit quirky sometimes, though I thought they fixed the erroneous Nostrop Oil issue in V1.3.

If you're working with an existing complex are you using "add existing complex" (to a blank complex) rather than working from a saved version?

As for the Warheads you probably don't need an XXL station for them as making boarding pods only consumes a small number per hour.
However I upgraded it because eventually it fills up and goes idle anyway and then I have surplus food production that, if I wanted to, I could direct to another product.

I'm working off the same saved version that I had the Hephaistos build with a view to deciding order of upgrades.

[Sovereign01]

Is it possible to have multiple upgrades in a complex running simultaneously or do they have to be done one at a time?

There's something else going on with the planner, it's now saying I need a whole lot more of Nostrop Oil even when I take out all the Teladi factories. So unless XXL Teladi mines have a hidden Nostrop Oil cost, I'm stumped.

Multiple stations in a complex can be upgraded at the same time. They are treated as separate stations in that case.

That makes things easier, and being offline during upgrades won't be a problem where there's more than one factory making that particular resource, it's only the ones producing the end product that will suffer as I've only got one of each due to the asteroid-imposed raw material limitations of the system I'm building in, the unclaimed sector by Unseen Domain. I'm saving the sector I want most (Consecrated Fire beta) for the really heavy-duty stuff. The complex is starting to make money, the first sale was to some Paranid buying cloth rimes.

[Sovereign01]

I've started applying L upgrades, my Elephant can carry 2 kits at a time and luckily I don't need to be in sector to use them. What I didn't know was that factories had to carry out a certain number of cycles before they could be upgraded as well, that could be a serious problem if the thing they're making takes a long time to produce, or do items with long cycle times need less?

[Deathifier]

I've started applying L upgrades, my Elephant can carry 2 kits at a time and luckily I don't need to be in sector to use them. What I didn't know was that factories had to carry out a certain number of cycles before they could be upgraded as well, that could be a serious problem if the thing they're making takes a long time to produce, or do items with long cycle times need less?

Generally longer cycle time items need less cycles to upgrade, the larger weapons for example need a single cycle for each upgrade, even to XXL.

For longer cycle time items I found it to be a good idea to stop the stations production when it is on the last cycle.
Upgrades, once queued, only start when the station is not producing / has finished a production cycle.
By stopping production the station will halt when it finishes the cycle and you can apply the upgrade immediately whereas if you let it continue producing it will start another cycle before you can apply the upgrade and that can be quite the wait for some items.

[Sovereign01]

I've been applying upgrades while using agents to obtain the plans for the various sizes of upgrades with a view to producing my own. Weirdly the acquisition of the Split M-size upgrade succeeded but the Argon L-size one failed despite the latter having a higher chance of success than the former so I'm taking another crack at that one, the dozen or so upgrades I have on the go are taking place while my HQ is busy producing another TOA, after which will be 8 mining drones for my Cormorant to bolster my mobile mining. The Computer Components are proving to be a popular product, selling well even at full price so logically I should upgrade that one first. All this is being funded by the credits made by the HQ selling the Nividium I've gathered which is ongoing.

I have noticed occasions where HSAP sector contents do not match the information here, such as for Dark Waters (claimed by the Boron), where in my game it has more silicon 'roids and no nividium ones, or Consecrated Fire not having as many high-yield asteroids as it claims, which leads me to suspect that RNG applies to sector contents as much as it does to the accessibility of sectors themselves.

[Jimmy C]

My agents acquired the plans for the XL upgrade but I decided 1 and a half hours per unit for 42 stations was too much. I went back to buying the upgrades.

[Deathifier]

I have noticed occasions where HSAP sector contents do not match the information here, such as for Dark Waters (claimed by the Boron), where in my game it has more silicon 'roids and no nividium ones, or Consecrated Fire not having as many high-yield asteroids as it claims, which leads me to suspect that RNG applies to sector contents as much as it does to the accessibility of sectors themselves.

The asteroids in remote locations (i.e. behind HSAP's) are indeed randomised at game start.