Trump

[eladan]

But what I do have a problem with is the pure bile that comes from republicans, often paired with violence or threats of violence, and this idea that I or anybody else that refuses to tolerate that is suddenly the bad guy for not putting up with it. What's being created here is along the same lines that racists and other bigots often create in their own defense or as a deflection - the paradox of tolerance.

If you're not familiar with this concept, essentially it's a counter argument that racists use to say being intolerant of them is intolerance too and therefor hypocritical. In a literal definition:

The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly paradoxical idea that "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Popper expands upon this, writing, "I do not imply for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

In my view, we're beyond the rational argument stage by 4-6 years, at least.

And just to be clear, I'm not calling for the use of force.

Hmm - I don't think it's that far off the base that I was arguing? Thomas Jefferson's quote in that article I think says pretty much what I was (but of course better, and with fewer words.)

Thomas Jefferson had already addressed the notion of a tolerant society in his first inaugural speech, concerning those who might destabilise the United States and its unity, saying, "let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it."

So you need to ensure an environment where reason is left free to combat intolerance - get rid of the bad actors who are pushing an agenda of lies and bigotry with the aim of keeping themselves in power, so that you can achieve that.

[RegisterMe]

So you need to ensure an environment where reason is left free to combat intolerance - get rid of the bad actors who are pushing an agenda of lies and bigotry with the aim of keeping themselves in power, so that you can achieve that.

I completely agree with that. However, in the land of "free speech", unfortunately, intolerance and ignorance is given equal, if not more, airtime than reason, and bad actors are free to spout their poison. Sadly it seems to be a popular dish .

I can see no long term solution other than education, health care, and opportunity for all. Three things that, despite what they say, Trump / his administration / his supporters seem to despise (because they can see the writing on the wall).

In spite of my atheism, not to mention my general misanthropic tendencies, I can see an argument for "the better angels of our nature". I think it will win out over time. But I think the road over the next few years could be rough. Hopefully I'm wrong.

[Mightysword]

So you need to ensure an environment where reason is left free to combat intolerance - get rid of the bad actors who are pushing an agenda of lies and bigotry with the aim of keeping themselves in power, so that you can achieve that.

I completely agree with that. However, in the land of "free speech", unfortunately, intolerance and ignorance is given equal, if not more, airtime than reason, and bad actors are free to spout their poison. Sadly it seems to be a popular dish .

Original only quote Eledan on the same quote, but since RegisterMe posted before mine, I double quote here to express my agreement with both.

There is a reason why polls have becomes so unreliable. In 2016 it predicted a landslide for Hilary, didn't happen. In 2018, it predicted a big Blue wave, didn't happen. In 2020 ... it certainly didn't predict the result to be this close. Political correctness is the bane of any conversation. Even when people can't talk openly, they can still vote. The climate in the US make the question "will you vote for Trump" as taboo as the question "did you cheat on your spouse or have aid". Try to make a public poll for that and guess what the result will be.

"I don't agree with anything you say, but I'll talk to you" isn't about about "tolerating what is wrong" (which seem to be the extreme argument that kept being pushed here). But at least by talking to you, there is a chance I can "persuade" you to change. But if I already decided that "anything come out of your mouth will be met with instant and uncalled hostility no matter what" then ... you may just decide to walk away, no conversation will happens, and nothing will change. Like I mentioned in the UN's example, it's not a good feeling to share the table with countries like Saudi on something called "human right council", but if the end game is to change what happens in Saudi, then it's better to have them at the table than cutting them off altogether. At the same time, having Saudi in the human right council doesn't equate to we're A-ok with their track record.

And I'm not talking about trying to change all all 70mil votes, there probably a good portion of those that can not be changed - let's say 60% for argument shake. That means the other 40% can be persuaded - but only if a conversation happen. But that conversation will never happens if those in the 40% are treated and labelled with the same prejudiced as the 60%. If the 76mil wan to become the the 85, 90, or 100mil in the future, they will have to learn and accept the distinction between the 60% and 40% among the current 70mil voted for Trump.

We can't pull someone out from the mud if we can not accept the fact we will have to get a little dirty in the process.

[RegisterMe]

"I don't agree with anything you say, but I'll talk to you" isn't about about "tolerating what is wrong" (which seem to be the extreme argument that kept being pushed here). But at least by talking to you, there is a chance I can "persuade" you to change. But if I already decided that "anything come out of your mouth will be met with instant and uncalled hostility no matter what" then ... you may just decide to walk away, no conversation will happens, and nothing will change.

I'd like to think it's about understanding the other position (even if you vehemently disagree with it) before anything else.

And hey, I'm no angel {cough}, but I do try. It's one of the reasons I miss MasterBagger.

[Mightysword]

I'd like to think it's about understanding the other position (even if you vehemently disagree with it) before anything else.

It's only for the shake of simplifying the point, just like in my previous post a few pages ago I said I didn't want to use "good people and bad people" as labels, and you know I have a track record of refuting them. But yes I agree with you, just didn't want to make a disclaimer every time.

And hey, I'm no angel {cough}, but I do try. It's one of the reasons I miss MasterBagger.

Me too, and I don't think being an angel have anything to do with that though . He strikes me as someone I can get into a fight with in the morning and share a beer with at night on the same day without holding grudge.

[Vertigo 7]

Sorry, Mightysword, you're confusing political correctness with basic human decency. If you think racism is only a political issue, you're sadly mistaken. In fact, it's one thing that should not be political, like COVID. Sadly, it's so ingrained in republican politics. I can understand why you would have a problem separating the two.

Anyway, as I've said before, They dug their pit and jumped in it. I'm not obligated to help them get out of it. If they chose to get in, they can choose to get out. Besides, there's nothing more than I can say to them. They know it's wrong, they don't care and I can't make them care.

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

Sorry, Mightysword, you're confusing political correctness with basic human decency. If you think racism is only a political issue, you're sadly mistaken. In fact, it's one thing that should not be political, like COVID. Sadly, it's so ingrained in republican politics. I can understand why you would have a problem separating the two.

Anyway, as I've said before, They dug their pit and jumped in it. I'm not obligated to help them get out of it. If they chose to get in, they can choose to get out. Besides, there's nothing more than I can say to them. They know it's wrong, they don't care and I can't make them care.

But it's not about literal racism, it's about people believing, because several republican politicians made them, that immigrants are actually delinquent and are there to steal jobs / women / "culture" (the latter makes me laugh a lot, talking about America). The job of "good" politicians is to let the part of Trump voters voting a racist because of their frustration or misconception (are they 80%? 50%? 99%? of the republican voting base? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure they're the majority) know that what Trump / Cruz / Fox or whatever convinced them tricked them. And it's not just about racism.
The real deal is fighting against against the idea of "trickle down works", because that's what all is about, that's the true base of modern racism: giving wealth to the wealthiest doesn't help the poor. And it's not just about republicans, because Biden will go in that direction too, considering the ties with Wall Street the "centrist democrats" have. It's this kind of idea the root of evil in modern societies, in my opinion. If you don't fight that, you will never see the immigrants as equal people. If you think about it, the true "bad" immigrant is the foreign investor buying a chocolate factory and taking / spending the income from chocolate in his own country. He is the one "stealing" money, not the poor underpaid mexican trimming your bushes.

[Vertigo 7]

But it's not about literal racism, it's about people believing, because several republican politicians made them, that immigrants are actually delinquent and are there to steal jobs / women / "culture" (the latter makes me laugh a lot, talking about America). The job of "good" politicians is to let the part of Trump voters voting a racist because of their frustration or misconception (are they 80%? 50%? 99%? of the republican voting base? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure they're the majority) know that what Trump / Cruz / Fox or whatever convinced them tricked them. And it's not just about racism.

I'm not so sure. Sure, those large figures/platforms are doing their part to spread racism. But it was only 2-3 generations ago that segregation was legally ended in the US. It was at that time that the conservatives consolidated under the republican party and fought like hell to keep segregation in place. There are many still alive today that were alive in that era and the resentments they harbored have been taught to their children. Why do you think confederate statues started popping up again all over the place during the 60's? Why do you think the average joe republican is still fighting to keep them out on prominent display today? Those things don't teach a damn thing. You can't learn history from looking at a statue. But they're great for propaganda. These guys didn't stop believing just because some laws were passed or the constitution was amended.

It wasn't that long ago that hundreds of students in a Mississippi university organized a white pride march with Tiki torches. We're talking young adults in their late teens/early twenties that voluntarily chose to do this, that actually believe they have some kind of genetic superiority to every other race and they're entitled to more than any other race.

This isn't just about the republican elites. It's also about the voters. Think about it this way... If you had a teacher that told you that 2+2=7, and for whatever reason, you chose to believe that (hypothetically speaking, of course). Then along comes another teacher that says "no, 2+2=4" and can prove it, and yet you continue to believe that 2+2=7, do you get to escape responsibility for being wrong? I would argue no because you're making a choice to ignore facts.

The real deal is fighting against against the idea of "trickle down works", because that's what all is about, that's the true base of modern racism: giving wealth to the wealthiest doesn't help the poor. And it's not just about republicans, because Biden will go in that direction too, considering the ties with Wall Street the "centrist democrats" have. It's this kind of idea the root of evil in modern societies, in my opinion. If you don't fight that, you will never see the immigrants as equal people. If you think about it, the true "bad" immigrant is the foreign investor buying a chocolate factory and taking / spending the income from chocolate in his own country. He is the one "stealing" money, not the poor underpaid mexican trimming your bushes.

You're getting into economics which does bear some relation to racism but is also it's own separate issue. I agree there's a huge problem in wealth gaps that's only getting worse and I have a laundry list of issues with both republican and democrat politicians. I promise you, I'm no big fan of Pelosi, Schumer, even Biden. I'm not ignoring those issues and if you wanna start a thread on how corporate republicans and corporate democrats suck, I'll be happy to unload about it. However, for the purposes of this discussion, compared to Trump and his boot lickers, they are by far the lesser of two evils.

*edit
Here's a great article about congresswomen Ayanna Pressley that really hits the nail on the head.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... r-BB1aVWbM

[matthewfarmery]

Biden win in Arizona ‘confirmed’ as analyst says there is now no way back for Trump

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 21629.html

So looks like its all over for Trump, sure Trump will continue to throw his toys out, but this is a big win for Biden. There is little chance for a Trump comeback now.

[pjknibbs]

So looks like its all over for Trump, sure Trump will continue to throw his toys out, but this is a big win for Biden. There is little chance for a Trump comeback now.

There hasn't really been a chance of that in anyone except Trump's head for days now. Even in the places where he's disputing the count, he might be arguing about a few hundred votes in a state where Biden is ahead by nearly 50,000!

[Vertigo 7]

So looks like its all over for Trump, sure Trump will continue to throw his toys out, but this is a big win for Biden. There is little chance for a Trump comeback now.

There hasn't really been a chance of that in anyone except Trump's head for days now. Even in the places where he's disputing the count, he might be arguing about a few hundred votes in a state where Biden is ahead by nearly 50,000!

I don't think Trump is counting on or ever did count on winning the election. Remember, he started calling "fraud!" months ago and wouldn't even say he would concede if defeated.

I'm telling ya, he's trying to game the system so that the election is decided by congress. The only obstacle in his way right now are judges that are seemingly loosing patience with him. I'll grant that he doesn't have much to work with but as Dec 14 draws near, I'm afraid you're going to see even more legal challenges with the only actual goal being to delay certification of the votes so that electors can't give either one of them 270 votes.

[matthewfarmery]

So looks like its all over for Trump, sure Trump will continue to throw his toys out, but this is a big win for Biden. There is little chance for a Trump comeback now.

There hasn't really been a chance of that in anyone except Trump's head for days now. Even in the places where he's disputing the count, he might be arguing about a few hundred votes in a state where Biden is ahead by nearly 50,000!

I don't think Trump is counting on or ever did count on winning the election. Remember, he started calling "fraud!" months ago and wouldn't even say he would concede if defeated.

I'm telling ya, he's trying to game the system so that the election is decided by congress. The only obstacle in his way right now are judges that are seemingly loosing patience with him. I'll grant that he doesn't have much to work with but as Dec 14 draws near, I'm afraid you're going to see even more legal challenges with the only actual goal being to delay certification of the votes so that electors can't give either one of them 270 votes.

This is sadly true, but if that happens, and if the GOP supports him, then goodbye American democracy. Trump has already installed some of his puppets in key positions. He is gunning for total control. Another American Civil war is still very likely, and it will be bloody. If that is the way the GOP wants America to go down, they will only have themselves to blame when things go south. I think its looking more and more likely that Trump might try this. Going to be a dark period of history for everyone involved.

Edit

Even Trump's lawyers don't believe there is any evidence of fraud


Trump’s own lawyers can’t even defend their ‘scam pleadings’ under oath: MSNBC’s Morning Joe

https://guides.gamepressure.com/observe ... p?ID=40884

So in that case, Trump will either retain power through the senate / Supreme court, or through a coup. Either will not go down well.

So Trump is thinking of starting his own media service

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/11/trump- ... ny-report/

I say, good luck with that. considering all his over ventures have collapsed. While he probably would gain a tone of subs, I suspect a great deal of the money will wind up paying debts. I doubt this will last long. Then again, he can't do another business while he is in office right? unless he probably use one of his sons to start it up in Trump's name. But seriously, I don't see it working. It will probably go bankrupt within a few years.

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

This is sadly true, but if that happens, and if the GOP supports him, then goodbye American democracy. Trump has already installed some of his puppets in key positions. He is gunning for total control. Another American Civil war is still very likely, and it will be bloody. If that is the way the GOP wants America to go down, they will only have themselves to blame when things go south. I think its looking more and more likely that Trump might try this. Going to be a dark period of history for everyone involved.

They're never taking any responsibility, they'll always be blaming democrats or leftists or black people rioting.

[RegisterMe]

This is well done, and amusing .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOlON_b ... e=youtu.be

[Vertigo 7]

This is well done, and amusing .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOlON_b ... e=youtu.be

hah. nice. Did you see the Fox supercut CNN did?

[felter]

I don't think he has had 4 of the 5 stages I think he is pretty much still on the third stage.
Stage 1 is Denial, he has had that as he has pretty much denied he lost the election.
Stage 2 is Anger, we have pretty much seen that as it is tied to him getting angry and deny that he lost the election.
Stage 3 is Bargaining, That is his legal challenges using the fabricated fraud claims made against him in illegal votes claiming he didn't lose the election.
Stage 4 is Depression, this is when he starts to realise he has lost the election, which he has not reached yet, he is still stuck on the first 3 stages at the same time, where he is still angry in denial and still trying to bargain his way to a victory.
5 is acceptance, He Trump is not ready to accept the election was lost. I pretty much doubt he ever will as I don't think he is capable of doing so. I think he will go to his grave denying that he lost the election. It will be on his gravestone, I didn't lose the election.

[matthewfarmery]

speaking of Fox news, the whining baby is now complaining that Fox news cost him the election

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/11/they-f ... -election/

someone needs to put a dummy in his mouth, so he can stop whining.

Then again, one has to blame Fox for inflating Trump's ego. So this divorce is certainly going to be a messy one.

[felter]

A problem with that story, Donald Trump has not said he lost the election, on the contrary he is still saying he won. So to say he is moaning that Fox news cost him the election is wrong, he has not done that, as far as I'm aware he is accusing them of not helping him win the election, which is a totally different thing.

[Vertigo 7]

A problem with that story, Donald Trump has not said he lost the election, on the contrary he is still saying he won. So to say he is moaning that Fox news cost him the election is wrong, he has not done that, as far as I'm aware he is accusing them of not helping him win the election, which is a totally different thing.

The utterly stupid thing about that is all they did, AFAIK, was to call AZ for Biden days after all of the votes had been cast and totals started rolling in. I would really like to understand how any news outlet, much less Fox, could change who the voters cast their ballots for after the fact.

[matthewfarmery]

US election results – live: Trump’s law firm pulls out in Arizona, amid claims president knows fight is over

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 21639.html

At least the law firm knows it's over, just wish that they will tell Trump that. As this legal firm has been helping Trump with most of his legal challenges.