Pilots skill

[Raevyan]

That's exactly where. When you talk about how easy it is and a 10 M freebie this is what you mean, absolutely "omitting" that there is no way in hell for the starter ship to survive in Faulty Logic, even as early as 20 mins into the game.

Wel I can easily fly through faulty logic and get the destroyer. Don’t know what exactly is so hard about it? The xenons? The mines? Just use travel drive and there is no threat. You can even avoid the mines if you fly some km above ecliptic. The last time I started a new game and went straight to get the Odysseus, there weren’t even any xenons flying around.

And no, it will take a good 1 game hour (at best) to get the HQ to appear (having used the majority of the Boron's money to buy the sacrificial lamb for the mission, or, accidentally - we are still talking newbies here - to "stumble" on the Hatikvah mission to get the free Callisto so he can put the starter ship to death for the PHQ, that's another at least half an hour btw, the first part of the Hatikvah mission).

Well an hour of playtime isn’t that much and I didn’t say that you get the HQ in 10min (only said that for getting the destroyer that nets you around 10m). I mean you’ll do it at some point anyway. But the free M ship that you can sell is easy money. Imagine, you could do the HQ mission while your station is building.

P.S. The "troll" part was after an or OK? But definitely you have forgotten what it is to be new in the game... Out of personal experience, and with over 5000 hours in each and every of the previous X games, it took me 3 new starts (in case I have broken/rejected something) and, in total, 20 appearances of the Boron before I could find where in that hideous UI was the accept button to continue with the PHQ mission in the first place (used in the elegance and functionality of previous X games that did not block the whole screen to offer a mission, or display the map)

Don’t know why you refer to newbies. The topic is about the rng based leveling system that makes no sense because with a trade station, as I said, you basically get the same functionality at not much higher costs Without hundreds of hours it takes a miner/trader to level to 3 stars overall. The only viable way to level them in a somewhat decent time by actually doing something is exploiting khaak stations and xenon gates. Which again is automated fire and forget. CBJs statement was, they don’t want to reward such automation with fast xp gain. Ok one could say khaak spawn camping has some risk loosing ships but why do manager level so fast compared to a pilot? They intentionally give us limited control over the manager and it’s subordinate, again all automation.

I’d say that the current xp gain (besides the combat scenario that is somewhat decent, but still takes several hours), is just an arbitrary time gate to lock a command that is not even that useful and won’t make you rich anyway. I’m totally fine if some things aren’t available from the beginning because progression is probably the biggest reward for a player. But the rng based system is way overkill. Also in late game I don’t want to do all the micro. What’s the point of making credits if you can’t spend it to skip tedious micromanagement at later stages of the game?

[atavistuk]

I can actually answer the 3 star pilot question. 900,000 credits or in the region of. IF you can find one.

Also, in X4: Autotraders are dead, get over it. Automining Nividium is where the easy money is. Put a Satelite at the trade station and one M miner in Hewas Twin, Hatikva's Choice, Ianamus Zura and Grand Exchange, forget about them. Not sure about ARG and ANT areas and the Paranid don't seem to buy any. Split do, but their trade stations are far away from any Nividium fields, so you'd have to sell to them manually regardless. Then just sit back and let the money pour in. Zero Pilot Skill needed.

And if you're not building stations, ofc your going to be super poor. Stations are where the money is, nothing else is even going to be close. By Design.

[pref]

So i had a little time, ran the game ahead on seta to see how long it would take to get 3 star guys.

Within ~1.5 game days the first 10% of the 30 ships i kept checking got the last 1/3*. No clue exactly when they leveled, i could not check them every min.
They do somewhere between 250-450 runs in that time. It was black marketeers, so low volume, high margin trade if that matters at all.

From this it seems the chance mentioned before (0.0035%) got increased into the realm of possible events, probably more then tenfold, but my numbers are far too low to guess the probability.

[Kosta88]

I actually stopped worrying about pilot skill and money the moment I got my self sustaining wharf.
I am at 16bil, stopped wharf even selling ships to anyone for now. I have no need. I have some 500 ships, 3 raptors and two colossus, 20 destroyers and could make dozens more any second. Without any cost!! Almost all blueprints. Wharf has I think over 500 modules. It did take couple of smaller stations, a small wharf and SETA module to get me there though. Still, no pilot skills required. Once you start popping transporters and mining ships like crazy, is where money starts to pour in and the self sustaining wharf is a piece of cake, just something that takes time to construct and two days on SETA to build a basic version lol.
In any case, once you reach that, it’s over basically. You stop caring. I am in Xenon sectors, K’s and I’s are popping like flies, so do stations. It’s basically just doing cleanup.
Just want to show you might as well forget about pilot skills. Sad, but true.
And it means following: it takes one interesting part of the game away. Because I would never have time or patience to wait for them to up their skills the “normal” way, like flying or fighting.

[M4lInX255]

I can actually answer the 3 star pilot question. 900,000 credits or in the region of. IF you can find one.

Also, in X4: Autotraders are dead, get over it. Automining Nividium is where the easy money is. Put a Satelite at the trade station and one M miner in Hewas Twin, Hatikva's Choice, Ianamus Zura and Grand Exchange, forget about them. Not sure about ARG and ANT areas and the Paranid don't seem to buy any. Split do, but their trade stations are far away from any Nividium fields, so you'd have to sell to them manually regardless. Then just sit back and let the money pour in. Zero Pilot Skill needed.

And if you're not building stations, ofc your going to be super poor. Stations are where the money is, nothing else is even going to be close. By Design.

Nividium mining at first, and then jumping to station building is indeed one of the fastest way to get money. And apart from the initial player input, all of this is completely automatized and independent of pilot skill. This is why I don't understand the argument justifying the artificial limit of 2-3 stars for traders. Yes you can't easily multiply autotraders, but they're not even half as cost-effective as the first player stations. Even before 3.0, I would only have a handful of them to fill some market gaps and that's it. The only argument I can think of against autotraders is that they're faster to "launch" compared to stations and such.

[Raevyan]

I can actually answer the 3 star pilot question. 900,000 credits or in the region of. IF you can find one.

Also, in X4: Autotraders are dead, get over it. Automining Nividium is where the easy money is. Put a Satelite at the trade station and one M miner in Hewas Twin, Hatikva's Choice, Ianamus Zura and Grand Exchange, forget about them. Not sure about ARG and ANT areas and the Paranid don't seem to buy any. Split do, but their trade stations are far away from any Nividium fields, so you'd have to sell to them manually regardless. Then just sit back and let the money pour in. Zero Pilot Skill needed.

And if you're not building stations, ofc your going to be super poor. Stations are where the money is, nothing else is even going to be close. By Design.

Nividium mining at first, and then jumping to station building is indeed one of the fastest way to get money. And apart from the initial player input, all of this is completely automatized and independent of pilot skill. This is why I don't understand the argument justifying the artificial limit of 2-3 stars for traders. Yes you can't easily multiply autotraders, but they're not even half as cost-effective as the first player stations. Even before 3.0, I would only have a handful of them to fill some market gaps and that's it. The only argument I can think of against autotraders is that they're faster to "launch" compared to stations and such.

Well if it’s irrelevant because other means make more money, why even have that barrier in the first place?
Other than that there is also advanced and expert automine. Sometimes there is demand for minerals in a sector that does not have mineable resources. ZYA is a pretty good example because there are only very few sectors where you can mine...

[M4lInX255]

Nividium mining at first, and then jumping to station building is indeed one of the fastest way to get money. And apart from the initial player input, all of this is completely automatized and independent of pilot skill. This is why I don't understand the argument justifying the artificial limit of 2-3 stars for traders. Yes you can't easily multiply autotraders, but they're not even half as cost-effective as the first player stations. Even before 3.0, I would only have a handful of them to fill some market gaps and that's it. The only argument I can think of against autotraders is that they're faster to "launch" compared to stations and such.

Well if it’s irrelevant because other means make more money, why even have that barrier in the first place?

Exactly my point.

Other than that there is also advanced and expert automine. Sometimes there is demand for minerals in a sector that does not have mineable resources. ZYA is a pretty good example because there are only very few sectors where you can mine...

Indeed, you must rely on factions to fulfil the demands, or do everything manually...

[jlehtone]

I had to go back, to seek "horse's mouth":

I'm not directly involved in this, but the crew skill progression curve intentionally gets much steeper just below 3 stars, which is where you unlock automatic trading. That's one of the most, if not the most, advanced trading behaviour, which lets you fire-and-forget your trader to make credits efficiently on its own.


If the crew of your automated ships seems to not level, consider this as a rule of thumb: The more manual work you put in to make the ship's orders more efficient (e.g. telling it to make profitable trade runs with a full cargo hold), and the more dangerous the orders are (e.g. having a ship help destroy a station), the faster the crew will usually level.

This means that by putting in effort now, and keeping a close eye on what these ships do, you'll unlock advanced automated behaviour that lets them operate more efficiently on their own later on.


Simple automation like sector AutoMine is available from the start, and it's a great way to make credits early and supply your stations hassle-free.


Seminars are indeed just a buff until you hit the steep part of the curve. Design-wise, at that point, the player is meant to be encouraged to actively seek out high-risk activities, raise their reputation (to gain access to higher level seminars as mission rewards), play guild missions and send their ships on ventures to gain a self-sufficient captain in return.

• Sector AutoMine, yes, that we probably agree on
• AutoTrader being "one of the most, if not the most, advanced trading behaviour"? I gather that station traders eat AutoTraders for breakfast. Trading Station is an add-on, isn't it? If yes, then the "Big Picture" has changed after the design was made. Wheeled chariots were the pinnacle of warfare, but now we have armored vehicles.
• "Player is meant to be encouraged." Noble idea, but the marketing speech does not sink into everybody. For one, I did miss the memo that tells how reputation affects rewards. It is intuitive, based on previous games -- if one has played them -- but almost unnoticeable*. Then there is the pirate mind-set too: they want to take, rather than to receive.

*I don't know anything about the "mods", so as rewards they are all equally worthless to me. Yes, talking to a Boron is apparently encouraged, but stubborn gits are not so easily affected, are they?

[pref]

I thought i post back with results of my experiment.

I released 30 2+2/3* pilots as station traders. They did drugs so were running on infinite sinks constantly in quick ships like boa and magpie - most only working in a single or 2 sectors tops.
Don't think there is a more effective way to train them by their own trade - i don't find training traders via combat assignments realistic as there isn't enough opposition in my game at least.

So after 1.5-2 days i got 3 of them to 3*.
But after 12 days i only got 2 more up to 3*. So my initial 3 skillups was probably huge luck, and skillup speed is still abysmal.
Meaning the skill mechanics still locks out most of us from using 'advanced' scripts without a station backing them.
If every 2 days one could get 3 more guys to 3* that would probably be fine but this is still way too slow. At least i don't see myself doing those procedural quests indefinitely as my empire grows.

Sure the game can be played without those scripts, but imo the skill gains are way below acceptable level and procedurally generated things are boring for the human mind after a short time - no wonder that method got quickly dropped from games in any area that needs constant player involvement.
I mean it's fine for roids and totally background things like that but i remember skyrim using handcrafted dungeons (meaning not procedural) as a selling point after getting feedback on that aspect from earlier installments ages ago.
I would be much more happy if those missions weren't a prerequisite for any advanced features.

[Raevyan]

I thought i post back with results of my experiment.

I released 30 2+2/3* pilots as station traders. They did drugs so were running on infinite sinks constantly in quick ships like boa and magpie - most only working in a single or 2 sectors tops.
Don't think there is a more effective way to train them by their own trade - i don't find training traders via combat assignments realistic as there isn't enough opposition in my game at least.

So after 1.5-2 days i got 3 of them to 3*.
But after 12 days i only got 2 more up to 3*. So my initial 3 skillups was probably huge luck, and skillup speed is still abysmal.
Meaning the skill mechanics still locks out most of us from using 'advanced' scripts without a station backing them.
If every 2 days one could get 3 more guys to 3* that would probably be fine but this is still way too slow. At least i don't see myself doing those procedural quests indefinitely as my empire grows.

Sure the game can be played without those scripts, but imo the skill gains are way below acceptable level and procedurally generated things are boring for the human mind after a short time - no wonder that method got quickly dropped from games in any area that needs constant player involvement.
I mean it's fine for roids and totally background things like that but i remember skyrim using handcrafted dungeons (meaning not procedural) as a selling point after getting feedback on that aspect from earlier installments ages ago.
I would be much more happy if those missions weren't a prerequisite for any advanced features.

And that’s another example that, even while using those exploits (I consider using infinite demand black marketeers and infinite spawning khaak camping an exploit) , the level rate is abysmal compared to the “reward” (‘advanced scripts’) that you get.

By the time you’ve got your first 3* pilots you probably made more than enough money to render auto traders pretty much useless.

[Kosta88]

By the time you’ve got your first 3* pilots you probably made more than enough money to render auto traders pretty much useless.

On the spot.
My interest into playing X4 is galaxy domination.
However, the fact that many game mechanics are so broken, and the fact that there are way too many bugs, just puts me off of that task.

An example: I am cleaning up Xenon around Turquoise Sea, and I came from Company Regard, to Scale Plate Green I, then VII, and wanted to cross to Turquoise Sea X. I usually first send the Rattlesnakes to fight off the gate protection and some incoming K/I, if any. Then I move the Raptors and Behemoths over. Then the sector cleanup begins. So I am at the gate to TS X, I select my Rattlers, and Fly To in front of gate in TS X. A simple command. And: they start turning, and want to go all the way around, and enter from the upper gate in TS X. A bug. I took one Rattler over, went manually through the gate, selected others to follow, what they do: they want to go around!! Half an hour into the game, I saved and quitted... ridiculous. Not sure I even wanna play any more.

[Clownmug]

By the time you’ve got your first 3* pilots you probably made more than enough money to render auto traders pretty much useless.

On the spot.
My interest into playing X4 is galaxy domination.
However, the fact that many game mechanics are so broken, and the fact that there are way too many bugs, just puts me off of that task.

Spot on if you ignore the existence of the training seminars. The devs wanting players to actively earn auto-traders rather than let the game play itself is hardly a broken mechanic.

[pref]

By the time you’ve got your first 3* pilots you probably made more than enough money to render auto traders pretty much useless.

It's not just ATs, there is also a miner script with 4* requirements.
No clue what that script does but it must bring insane profits to hide it behind such a high skill req.. in reality the skill system just makes that script virtually unaccessible.

The 3* mine script can also be handy in later game due to how AI handles station miners.
Same is true for AutoTraders btw, it's real easy to get profits without that but later game it can be much more useful by having targeted sales ships on your stations.

I would not consider these features early game at all, their real advantage is the additional config options they have.

Spot on if you ignore the existence of the training seminars. The devs wanting players to actively earn auto-traders rather than let the game play itself is hardly a broken mechanic.

The game plays itself anyway, unless you don't build stations. These 3*+ scripts just bring more detailed config options on how you configure your (already automated) empire.
And getting those 3-4* seminars in higher numbers is just meh for me. Don't know if missions got better in 3.3 but i had quite a few chains that were (near?) impossible to complete due to bugs or just an untamed random function.
Getting 1/6 chance after 12 days to level a pilot to 3* in a setup that was made for training with high effort is very far from spoiling early game. And increasing that chance to 100% / 2-3 days would still not make early game any easier.

[Kosta88]

Spot on if you ignore the existence of the training seminars. The devs wanting players to actively earn auto-traders rather than let the game play itself is hardly a broken mechanic.

Pointless. Forcing something that isn’t necessarily needed is a broken mechanic.

[Clownmug]

Spot on if you ignore the existence of the training seminars. The devs wanting players to actively earn auto-traders rather than let the game play itself is hardly a broken mechanic.

Pointless. Forcing something that isn’t necessarily needed is a broken mechanic.

I think I understand what's going on in this topic now. This basically sums it up.

[pref]

Is it just me or the number of 1* seminars at station traders has been heavily reduced recently?

I remember i could always buy several of those when visiting stations, now most traders have none..

[jlehtone]

Is it just me or the number of 1* seminars at station traders has been heavily reduced recently?

Yes. 3.30 did that. Explicitly.

Before 3.30 you did need 3(?) seminars to gain one star. Now one seminar achieves the same.
Prices were adjusted. Did not check whether three old seminars did cost the same as one new.
Frequency was adjusted as well. Probably to maintain the amount of stars that you can gather.

[pref]

Thanks!

What a pity. Can't get myself to like these rng missions.