Pilots skill

[terodil]

I feel like I'm making choices, but if what you imply is true then I'm just fooling myself.

That's just being facetious. Dtpsprt clearly means that they'd like to play the game without having to step into the station building business, and feels that that particular avenue is not effective enough to be considered a viable option, ergo they feel they have no real choice in the matter.

I personally could never do without station building myself, as I love that aspect of the game, but I can fully understand and respect their views.

[dtpsprt]

Again you are missing the biggest point: CHOICE

Indeed. I feel like I'm making choices, but if what you imply is true then I'm just fooling myself.

I.e. I can't see what I'm missing. Can you explain the "choices" without loud words?

I tried to... I really did... took me so long to put the reasons that I was logged out and the reply lost... will not try to put it back again... you got your answer from another post (in short terms)

[jlehtone]

Assuming* that the goal is to get credits, then there seems to be options:

• Build stations and let them trade. The "design part" is not as atrocious as it was in X2/X3
• Run autotraders, which requires
  • Micromanage ships to train pilots, or
  • Hunt missions to seminar pilots
• Run autominers. Easier to start, but benefit from pilots (who require training)
• Micromanage traders
• Do missions

No surprises there; all paths require player attention. Not sure how they compare on profit/effort ratio. Did I miss other serious paths?

The balance between options has varied in different games. Xbtf did not have miners, traders, or missions. X2 got autotraders; first freighter was hard to get but from then on stations were no longer so lucrative. Somewhere in X3R/X3TC autominers arrived and Nividium was abundant. "Everybody" claims that stations yield the big credits in X4.

In principle, the stations seem like the least effort path too; just decide modules, drop in cash and let run. Big profit with low effort sounds hard to compete. There is initial investment before the first station though: gathering of blueprints and first lump of cash. No different from hiring first autotrader in X2. When done, the game is practically over?

Am I right that the choice between red pill and blue pill, choice between stations and less credits, feels like no real choice because neither option is fun?



*Assumptions are the mother of ...

[dtpsprt]

The balance between options has varied in different games. Xbtf did not have miners, traders, or missions. X2 got autotraders; first freighter was hard to get but from then on stations were no longer so lucrative. Somewhere in X3R/X3TC autominers arrived and Nividium was abundant. "Everybody" claims that stations yield the big credits in X4.

In principle, the stations seem like the least effort path too; just decide modules, drop in cash and let run. Big profit with low effort sounds hard to compete. There is initial investment before the first station though: gathering of blueprints and first lump of cash. No different from hiring first autotrader in X2. When done, the game is practically over?

Am I right that the choice between red pill and blue pill, choice between stations and less credits, feels like no real choice because neither option is fun?

*Assumptions are the mother of ...

So do you see yourself the deduction in choices? In case you are interested there is another (pretty similar to mine) view on this issue in another discussion in this forum, which also shows that there are people (X Universe fans) that "are not amused" with what is going on in X4...

viewtopic.php?p=4980560#p4980596

EDIT: PS The phrase "We are not amused" was used by the Queen of GB to show her absolute disagreement and disgust... I don't think that googling it will give you anything if you don't have the right references...

[Kosta88]

I didn’t stop reading

I will just say though that I didn’t find any really viable way to make money but building stations. I am not interested in any kind of “grinding”. Not for money, not for skills. Stations are a bit of that, but they are mostly leave and forget. Check occasionally. What I am interested in is doing the stuff that “I” want and not what the game wants. That was for me always the spirit of X Universe, is also why I bought X4 and it is my expectation. Missions, fighting, micromanaged traders or miners, short deal stuff to start you up, but I am not interested into doing that for weeks without an end. I will do missions but only so often I want and those that I want. Certainly not to grind for rank. All the posts still get me to conclude that skills are just going up way too slowly. That should be fixed to let people enjoy the game instead to grind. Anything else is bollocks, sorry to say.

[dtpsprt]

I didn’t stop reading

I will just say though that I didn’t find any really viable way to make money but building stations. I am not interested in any kind of “grinding”. Not for money, not for skills. Stations are a bit of that, but they are mostly leave and forget. Check occasionally. What I am interested in is doing the stuff that “I” want and not what the game wants. That was for me always the spirit of X Universe, is also why I bought X4 and it is my expectation. Missions, fighting, micromanaged traders or miners, short deal stuff to start you up, but I am not interested into doing that for weeks without an end. I will do missions but only so often I want and those that I want. Certainly not to grind for rank. All the posts still get me to conclude that skills are just going up way too slowly. That should be fixed to let people enjoy the game instead to grind. Anything else is bollocks, sorry to say.

I'm with you all the way. Thank God there are Mods that allow you to do just that. The sad thing is that Egosoft does not seem to understand this particular need (mostly on the old players of X series, also people that do not have the time to grind that much) and they have put, sort of, barriers in Mods (no Ventures that offer the serious upgrades for the ship) but done nothing to "elevate" the burden on the vanilla game.

[Max Bain]

I didn’t stop reading

I will just say though that I didn’t find any really viable way to make money but building stations. I am not interested in any kind of “grinding”. Not for money, not for skills. Stations are a bit of that, but they are mostly leave and forget. Check occasionally. What I am interested in is doing the stuff that “I” want and not what the game wants. That was for me always the spirit of X Universe, is also why I bought X4 and it is my expectation. Missions, fighting, micromanaged traders or miners, short deal stuff to start you up, but I am not interested into doing that for weeks without an end. I will do missions but only so often I want and those that I want. Certainly not to grind for rank. All the posts still get me to conclude that skills are just going up way too slowly. That should be fixed to let people enjoy the game instead to grind. Anything else is bollocks, sorry to say.

I'm with you all the way. Thank God there are Mods that allow you to do just that. The sad thing is that Egosoft does not seem to understand this particular need (mostly on the old players of X series, also people that do not have the time to grind that much) and they have put, sort of, barriers in Mods (no Ventures that offer the serious upgrades for the ship) but done nothing to "elevate" the burden on the vanilla game.

While I agree, I have to repeat that the skill system is broken in more ways than just leveling speed. People think that a 5 star is way better than a 3 star one and that they need 5 stars to be able to make combat but that is not the case.
A 5 star trader or miner does not mine faster or make a better margin for your traded wares and I have tested a 5 star captain in a destroyer vs a Xen station. It makes no difference if you have a 5 star or a 3 star. Even others have tested it out and came to the same conclusion.
Also the fact that 5 stars may have the chance to stay at max range vs a 1 star which might not have the ability to do this makes it not always better because this behaviour is just random and so even a ship fitted for close combat would sometimes stay at max range what you definately dont want. Think of a destroyer with one long range weapon and the rest fitted for close combat fighting against a defense platform with artillery only. Your ship would take full firepower while only using one of its guns.
The AI does not pick the best behaviour but just has a bigger pool of fight behaviours it randomly picks from. Some important behaviours do come with 3 stars but you dont need more to win a fight than that.

This quote is from steam:

So you think 5 star captain will fight much better that 1 star? It is easy to verify! You can make all you pilots 5 star by editing save file (I even did a guide with instructions).
I did an experiment with 20 Pulsar fighters with different weapons. Tried new pilots and them updated them to 5 stars. I was expecting from 5 star fighters:
- They know how to use long-range weapons (mass drivers, torpedos) and will fire from distance.
- They know how to dodge enemy fire and will not fly straight to Xenon cannons.
Results are the same no matter what kind of weapons or pilot skills:
- Pilots rush directly to Xenon destroyer.
- They newer dodge even when see Xenon plasma blast flying directly to them.
- 2-3 fighters will die from Xenon main turrets before they try to fire.
- Rest will fly close enough to Xenon ship to be targeted by flak turrets.
- At range about 1km still alive fighters will finally start firing.
- Half of shots will miss destroyer from point-blank range!
- Even when ordered to target turrets first - pilots will shoot elsewhere.
- While weapon charging pilots will fly around destroyer, collecting all AA fire they can.
- Even with 1% hull left pilots will never return to carrier flying nearby for repairs.
- With proper weapon (bomb cannons or plasma) 20 fighters will probably kill single Xenon K.
- 15 from 20 fighters will die!

So the system needs a bigger overhaul than just the leveling speed in my opinion.

[Accuracy]

So the system needs a bigger overhaul than just the leveling speed in my opinion.

It is not your opinion. It is a fact
The primary issue is that skills SHOULD NOT be RNG based. Because statistically that leaves you with a chance that the pilots will not level up at all.
Using RNG is generally not a good design. All the game decision should be deterministic (Unless it is justified by the genre) and considering that the game is supposed to be a simulation, I don't think it is justified.
The best system would be having some sort of experience system for example:

• Being in a ship should automatically give the crew experience in a certain interval

• Being around enemies should increase the skill multiplier. The multiplier should reset after each interval tick
  • The interval determines the time ticks when the crew receives the accumulated experience over the interval. If the interval is 15 minutes, the crew receive the accumulated experience over those 15 minutes every 15 minutes. The system should also keep track how much of that time was spent in combat and multiply the gained experience based on that value. Additional "Bonus" experience based on the actions I list in the following points should be also tracked and added to the final experience result.

• Doing certain actions should yield more experience.
  • Destroying an asteroid, an enemy ship, doing a successful trade (Either buy or sell), finding lootbox, wreckage and so on should yield more experience
  • Having the ship explore (Finding new stations, updating their trade offer and so on) should also yield additional experience

In case you have more ideas, feel free to expand the list. If I was coding the skill system in a game like X4. I would code it like this. It is simple, deterministic, rewarding and completely natural and in line with what the game's trope.


Currently, I simply use a mod that maxes out the experience on all the crew members since I pretend, the skill system doesn't exist.

[Max Bain]

stuff

As said, the leveling speed is not the main problem. What uses you a 5 star pilot if he is not really better than a 2 or 3 star pilot? The whole leveling makes no sense in that case.

[dtpsprt]

While I agree, I have to repeat that the skill system is broken in more ways than just leveling speed. People think that a 5 star is way better than a 3 star one and that they need 5 stars to be able to make combat but that is not the case.
A 5 star trader or miner does not mine faster or make a better margin for your traded wares and I have tested a 5 star captain in a destroyer vs a Xen station. It makes no difference if you have a 5 star or a 3 star. Even others have tested it out and came to the same conclusion.
Also the fact that 5 stars may have the chance to stay at max range vs a 1 star which might not have the ability to do this makes it not always better because this behaviour is just random and so even a ship fitted for close combat would sometimes stay at max range what you definately dont want. Think of a destroyer with one long range weapon and the rest fitted for close combat fighting against a defense platform with artillery only. Your ship would take full firepower while only using one of its guns.
The AI does not pick the best behaviour but just has a bigger pool of fight behaviours it randomly picks from. Some important behaviours do come with 3 stars but you dont need more to win a fight than that.

So the system needs a bigger overhaul than just the leveling speed in my opinion.

I shall have to disagree with that. Even though I am one of the most "noisy" people in this forum against the levelling system. What I have come to understand is that Egosoft made this system intentionally (I should have also put this word in capitals but I will be trolled again) to lead the players on a certain path. Building Stations, amassing billions (I think the "counter" stops at the trillion), which will be spent on more and more equipment that will be lost in battle, but (again missing capitals here) this will also "produce" massive Fleet battles, since only quantity counts in the bottom line as it is, and it will make the game last longer till it reaches a stage that it has no more interest.

Way worse than broken IMHO (for this capitals are allowed I think).

Making the pilots level up faster has nothing to do with their piloting skills in the bottom line, it has to do with allowing players that are not interested in all this Empire stuff assure a "steady income" so they can go on their merry way, whichever this might be.

[dtpsprt]

In case you have more ideas, feel free to expand the list. If I was coding the skill system in a game like X4. I would code it like this. It is simple, deterministic, rewarding and completely natural and in line with what the game's trope.

Currently, I simply use a mod that maxes out the experience on all the crew members since I pretend, the skill system doesn't exist.

From my experience, collecting loot during a battle and/or in a dense asteroid field should also add (probably a lot) in experience.

I had a pilot collecting both drops form destroyed ships and asteroid debris (Spacefly Eggs, Loadstones and Unstable Crystals) dodging stray shots, missiles and asteroids in Second Contac II Flashpoint for two hours!!! Total of the later gathered: around 250 Loadstone, 180 plus Spacefly Eggs and around 700 Crystals. I cannot count the rest of what she picked, but I could craft some 4 SETA's!!!

So I ask, who in his sane mind would face a pilot like this in battle? Still in the current system she started with 2 stars (seminars) 1/3 pilot, 1 1/3 morale and finished with the same...

Beware Egosoft!!! The revolt of the NPC's is nigh!!!

[CBJ]

I'm going to chime in here, not about the matter of skill progression itself, but on a moderation note about the way some people are approaching this discussion.

It is not your opinion. It is a fact

No, it's not. It's an opinion, just like any other. Claiming to have a monopoly on the facts does not strengthen your argument.

Making the pilots level up faster has nothing to do with their piloting skills in the bottom line, it has to do with allowing players that are not interested in all this Empire stuff assure a "steady income" so they can go on their merry way, whichever this might be.

Your argument seems to be that we should re-balance the skill progression to fit your play style at the expense of anyone who does want to play the "Empire stuff". Making it quick enough for you will make it too quick for others. You keep accusing others of not wanting to allow you to play your way, while at the same time trying to prevent them from playing theirs.

The discussion is interesting and relevant. Don't spoil it by behaving as though you are the only one with a valid viewpoint.

[jlehtone]

What I am interested in is doing the stuff that “I” want and not what the game wants. That was for me always the spirit of X Universe,
...
let people enjoy the game instead to grind. Anything else is bollocks, sorry to say.

I see everything in the games (also the earlier ones) as a grind. IMHO, the fact that there are many different grinds to choose from and alternate between makes the X-games much more playable than some completely monotonous franchises.

What is the stuff that you want to do (but can't, either categorically, or for example without stations)?


Surely one can mod in "serious upgrades" (just like Max "trained" 5* pilots)? Hence a modded game should have no need for Ventures.
(Awesome how "mod" can mean either vanilla action to modify ships or non-vanilla action to modify game. Unambiguous?)


Speaking of ambiguous. What is "building stations"?
Is it specifically the creation of player asset that continues to accumulate credits to the end of game?
How about the "Build us a Factory" missions? You are offered one-time reward for completing the mission. Is that considered "mission" or "station building"? Is that viable, when compared to "real" station building? Is it unacceptable (if one dislikes stations) for the same reasons?

[jlehtone]

The primary issue is that skills SHOULD NOT be RNG based. Because statistically that leaves you with a chance that the pilots will not level up at all.

Some people seem to never learn. Some start to forget over time. RNG can model that "just fine".
One could, of course, choose from:

Code: Select all

level = level + RNG
level = level + constant
level = level + constant + RNG

and balance constant and/or RNG with how often checks are made. The finer grain you have, the "steadier statistics", but CPU has other things to do as well.

Doing certain actions should yield more experience.

I do agree that all tasks are not equally inspiring. The devs has already described that some actions do have better yield than others. You want to haggle on which tasks and how much. Part of that has technical ramifications, part is just logical (and that is subjective, open to interpretation).



The 3.30 change from (presumed 15-point skills) 1-point seminars to 3-point seminars in itself does not change skill progress in any way (except ... see below) if same amount of seminar points remains available, but reduces micromanagement of seminars to 1/3.

A real change is that 1-point (1*) seminar can increase skill to 6 points (2*) at most, but a 3-point seminar gives you at best a 8 point pilot (2 and 2/3 stars). (A 5-pointer, 1 and 2/3 star, is the "best" pilot you can train with 1* seminar.)
Don't we assume/observe that RNG still adds 1 point at a time? Can we see that rate has changed?

[Max Bain]

I think changing the system to a well known experience point system without RNG would help a lot. So people can see that their pilots do make some progress and how long it takes to level up.

Additionally, I would give bonuses to specific skills for stars or levels and I would not make stars a requirement for specific tasks like auto trading.

These bonuses could be (just some examples):

For traders:

• Each star below 3 gives a 5% malus in prices
• Each star above 3 gives a 5% bonus in prices
• additionally each star increases the trading range by 1 sector

Engineers:

• Each skill point increases regeneration rate of ship hull and modules (like it is now)
• Each skill point increases regeneration rate of ships shields

Captains/Pilots:

• Each star below 3 gives a 5% malus in rate of fire
• Each star above 3 gives a 5% bonus in rate of fire
• Each star below 3 gives a 5% malus in top speed/or acceleration
• Each star above 3 gives a 5% bonus in top speed/or acceleration
• Each star below 3 gives a 5% malus in hull points (or maybe this could be defined by the average morale of the crew)
• Each star above 3 gives a 5% bonus in hull points (or maybe this could be defined by the average morale of the crew)

Marines:

• Each skill point increases combat value

Instead of stars we could also use the levels, so 1/3 of a star is one level to make progress more often but in smaller steps maybe.
This system would be easy to understand because most other games have similar systems and it is pretty intuitive. I know that it is not very realistic, that just because of a good pilot, your weapons wont fire more often, but you could say that a good pilot could maybe target better and this will be simulated into rate of fire.

[CBJ]

I think changing the system to a well known experience point system without RNG would help a lot. So people can see that their pilots do make some progress and how long it takes to level up.

As I said earlier in the thread, it's done the way it is for a reason: because of the huge number of NPCs and skills that the game is tracking.

[Max Bain]

I think changing the system to a well known experience point system without RNG would help a lot. So people can see that their pilots do make some progress and how long it takes to level up.

As I said earlier in the thread, it's done the way it is for a reason: because of the huge number of NPCs and skills that the game is tracking.

Ah ok I didnt got that.
But the rest of my suggestion stands and maybe it would help to increase the level numbers from 15 to 100 or so, so that the RNG has a smaller effect and chances to gain a level are higher.

[Kosta88]

What is the stuff that you want to do (but can't, either categorically, or for example without stations)?

Have a big fleet of traders doing auto-trading after a week of play (say each evening filling traders with manual trades), giving me enough money so that I can "have some fun".
Reasonable?

[Ehli]

Before 3.3 (or was it 3.2? forgot) I did not like the progression of pilots either, but nowadays they actually improve beyond my expections. My observations, having played about 300 hrs before the changes and 200 hrs after, in the newer version:

- Station miners and traders gain MUCH more and faster piloting skill
- Service crew (on above ships) actually gain up to 2 stars in piloting now (this surprised me)
- Combat XP doesn't seem changed
- lvl 1 pilot seminars are more rare (as stated in the RN), but still attained easily
- Using a seminar is best done on a pilot with 2/3rd star, since they now add a full star

My current post patch game only has 5 days and 19 hrs (I don't use SETA) and I already have 20ish 4 star or higher pilots. I think that's fine/balanced. I did not farm for seminars at all and only took guild missions for these when I felt like doing a mission.

Morale is actually my bottleneck at the moment, not piloting. Due to this I always use my high morale service crew (I love it: engineers are the most happy people!) as a pilot source. The perfect ones are those with 1.667 stars. With just one shop seminar you have a 2.67 pilot / 4 morale pilot. Finding a lvl 2 pilot seminar if you want a quick 3.67/4 pilot is rather easy, since those are frequent rewards.

The only change I would like to see is to remove the 2.67 hard cap for combat xp on non-capitals. From an RPG pov it doesn't make sense: someone who killed 1000 XEN-M is a hero too! Sure, make it little XP, but not the current hard cap. I have 3 combat pilots defending an active choke point of XEN for well over 100 game hours. That's long beards and gray hair "long" and only have 2.67/4. Rather odd when comparing with station ships.

[jlehtone]

Have a big fleet of traders doing auto-trading after a week of play (say each evening filling traders with manual trades), giving me enough money so that I can "have some fun".
Reasonable?

Yes and no, but we'll get to that later.

I have an eerie feeling that we are close to a XY problem. Not quite, but close.
What is the fun to be had (when you have credits)?


Evenings of a week are about 12 ingame hours, tops?
I think I saw someone boasting that they get a Wharf up way faster than that. Perhaps with past version of game or some exploit. Dubious.
Perhaps stations are easy to get and lucrative from start, but auto-miners look easier (no pilot required). Easier than other trade fleets.

Does it matter how one get credits as long as there are plenty of them, you get them within first hours of game, and with minimal effort?

I did spent more than first 12 ingame hours with just the starting ship, flying around, having fun, "exploring".
It did not feel like a grind, for I was not in a hurry to get anywhere else. I did find myself somewhere else, eventually.
On that background it is unthinkable to cram a week to get elsewhere. Just a week.

On the other hand it is reasonable to want to be able to quickly focus on gratifying action without arduous irrelevant preparation.


Queen's I Want It All is already "old", but lyrics are timeless.