Coronavirus: COVID-19

[Alan Phipps]

@ Vertigo 7: This is the Covid thread so please don't turn it into another US political thread and using such generalised insults, even if just intended as a bad joke.

[mr.WHO]

It's pretty amazing in the differences in how different countries take on things. Yesterday Scotland had its worst day for new infections with a total of 21 infections reported, which is more than any other day in the past month. The Scottish government makes a big deal out of it, using it as a warning that the virus is still out there, that the fight is not over yet. Meanwhile the UK government is lets improve the amount of reported cases so it doesn't look so bad and lets get ready for Christmas, while masking the truth about how many people are actually being infected and the total death count. The America government with 72k infection in a single day are, it's okay nothing to see here, it's only because we are doing more testing that we have more infections, so you don't need to wear a mask and we need to get those kids back into school as they can't be infected or infect anyone else.

I know I'm glad I come from Scotland, I do believe the Scottish government has done a better job than some others. So the question is, are you happy with the way your government is handling things.

I think population density and outbreak in large cities is a major factor.
The mega-cties are sh*thole and deathtraps anyway.
Another positive side of COVID will be bringing ballance between major urban centers and rural areas.

[Observe]

Florida reports more than 12,000 new Covid-19 cases, again, as governor declines to mandate masks. There are no ICU beds available at 49 Florida hospitals. Trump doesn't think that a mask mandate is necessary.

Washington State were I live, is experiencing an explosion of cases. Our governor has issued an order for masks to be worn, but it is largely ignored in the rural areas where the greatest growth in cases is occurring. It is a point of honor around here, to not wear a mask. The few who are seen with masks, are targets for disdain.

The idiots who resist masks, are the very same who are making so much noise about opening everything up. They are their own worst enemy. They should be arrested. Yet, our county Sheriff has openly said that he thinks masks are stupid and he won't be enforcing the governors orders.

Is America great enough yet?

[Mightysword]

I mean ... Colorado issued a state wide mask mandate just only 3 days ago (July 16th). I was surprised because I thought we had been under it for a long time, like since 2 months ago most (95%+) of people I run into outside of my house wears mask. The only odd occasion is people jogging on the side walk and people hanging around their front porch.

At this point I think the mandates from government mostly will only protect businesses from liability in case they get confronted by anti-mask people. Those who are health conscious would already wear it, mandate or not, and I feel those against it wouldn't wear it even if you tell them to. Then there is a problem with enforcement, even if it becomes a rule, who gonna enforce it? I'm afraid the police is not exactly in a great position to enforce such a general law now. This gonna just comes down to the people you have in your neighborhood and area and collective responsibility. I think I'm lucky in that regard basing on what I physically seeing with my own eye, but if you live in an area with a lot of people on the other end of the spectrum though ... good luck.

Is America great enough yet?

Tbh, in situation like this it's probably easier to accept the situation if one view America as a collection of 50 countries, than try to find the rationality of one country. Look at Europe, there are countries that do well and there are ones that are doing badly. You look at Asia and it's the same, some are the subjects of admiration while some others make you wonder "wtf are they doing!?!?". Probably make more sense to look at how state/cities government are doing rather the whole country.

[Grim Lock]

I mean ... Colorado issued a state wide mask mandate just only 3 days ago (July 16th). I was surprised because I thought we had been under it for a long time, like since 2 months ago most (95%+) of people I run into outside of my house wears mask. The only odd occasion is people jogging on the side walk and people hanging around their front porch.

At this point I think the mandates from government mostly will only protect businesses from liability in case they get confronted by anti-mask people. Those who are health conscious would already wear it, mandate or not, and I feel those against it wouldn't wear it even if you tell them to. Then there is a problem with enforcement, even if it becomes a rule, who gonna enforce it? I'm afraid the police is not exactly in a great position to enforce such a general law now. This gonna just comes down to the people you have in your neighborhood and area and collective responsibility. I think I'm lucky in that regard basing on what I physically seeing with my own eye, but if you live in an area with a lot of people on the other end of the spectrum though ... good luck.

Is America great enough yet?

Tbh, in situation like this it's probably easier to accept the situation if one view America as a collection of 50 countries, than try to find the rationality of one country. Look at Europe, there are countries that do well and there are ones that are doing badly. You look at Asia and it's the same, some are the subjects of admiration while some others make you wonder "wtf are they doing!?!?". Probably make more sense to look at how state/cities government are doing rather the whole country.

The worst countries in Europe are still doing way better than the worst states, the best countries in Europe are doing better than the best states in the US. And the US as a whole is gonna suffer the consequences way longer and way worse than Europe as a whole, that is gonna hold back the global economy though, so no country is going to go back to business as usual anytime soon.

[Observe]

Probably make more sense to look at how state/cities government are doing rather the whole country.

I disagree. We have a rag-tag miscellaneous assemblage of measures from state to state and city to city. At the same time, we have people traveling between states. We have trucks carrying goods, criss·crossing the whole country. The virus is finding its way into every backwoods out-of-the-way nook and cranny. Only a national standard, will bring this virus to a unified baseline. No national standard, will only give us what we are seeing. Outbreak after outbreak.

Los Angeles mayor says city is 'on the brink' of declaring another stay-at-home order.

A lot of things went wrong," Garcetti said. He pointed out that cases haven't increased as quickly in LA as in some cities, but said there is "no national leadership" in efforts to slow or stop the pandemic. "It was politicized when it should have been unified.

So yeah, we need a unified national mandate and we need to fire police officers who refuse to take action against transgressors.

[Mightysword]

Probably make more sense to look at how state/cities government are doing rather the whole country.

I disagree. We have a rag-tag miscellaneous assemblage of measures from state to state and city to city. At the same time, we have people traveling between states. We have trucks carrying goods, criss·crossing the whole country.

And how is this different than the rest of the world? Just for the shake of a demonstration, this is a map on the BBC many years ago to show the route from where the animal is slaughter to where it ends up on the super market in Europe if you want to talk about the 'flow of goods':
https://www.bbc.com/news/special/panels ... 267888.gif

Given the territory size and the federal structure, we're effectively not that different than the EC or the WHO in this case, in the sense the central government can give some guidance but ultimately, the fight gonna come down to local governments. Again, speaking from experience ever since the start of this epidemic, the action of the governor of Colorado and the mayor of Denver had far more impact than whatever direction/policy coming from Washington. We rely on them pretty much only on the resource/capital support, but our policies are pretty much our own.

[Observe]

And how is this different than the rest of the world?

Well, for starters, the US has 4% of the world's population but 25% of its coronavirus cases. For some mysterious reason, there are other hard hit countries who have managed to get somewhat of a handle on this. The United States, not so much.

Besides, what the hell is wrong with everyone wearing a mask for a few weeks, when the alternative is looming lockdown again? I mean come on! Is it all about grownup children crying about losing their imagined God-given freedom to do whatever the hell they like and be damned with everyone else?

[Mightysword]

Well, for starters, the US has 4% of the world's population but 25% of its coronavirus cases. For some mysterious reason, there are other hard hit countries who have managed to get somewhat of a handle on this. The United States, not so much.

Don't think that's what we're talking about but alright.

Even if you want to go with that angle my thinking still makes sense. True, the US has about 3.8m case. And guess what, you add the # from the top 5 states and the sum accounts for almost half of that, take out the top ten and you'll have around 1mil left to distribute among the remaining 40 states.

[fiksal]

The next grim milestone.
However, the dear leader (in US) says there's nothing to worry about, he'll be right, eventually (not that we'll be alright). I am guessing either magically or when everyone starts drinking bleach.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 27016.html

"I will be right eventually. You know, I said, 'It's going to disappear.' I'll say it again. ... It's going to disappear, and I'll be right," Mr Trump said of Covid-19, which has killed more than 140,000 Americans over the least five months.

The country surpassed the grim milestone of 140,000 Covid-19 deaths on Saturday into Sunday, but Mr Trump has still insisted that the US has the lowest mortality rate in the world, which is not true.

According to Johns Hopkins University, the US has the seventh-worst mortality rate due to the coronavirus. Countries like Russia[1] and Brazil ranked lower in their own mortality rate, which Mr Wallace pointed out to the president.

[1] I cant speak for Brazil, but I probably wouldnt trust Russia's figures. Putin's response and opinion has been similar to Trump's, - that it doesnt exist, etc, etc.

[pjknibbs]

Just looked at the numbers. Over the past three weeks Florida alone has had around 200,000 Covid-19 cases. New York State, on the other hand, which was really badly hit back when the virus first arrived on US shores, has had less than ten thousand. Seems to me other states ought to be learning from NY...

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

[1] I cant speak for Brazil, but I probably wouldnt trust Russia's figures. Putin's response and opinion has been similar to Trump's, - that it doesnt exist, etc, etc.

Bolsonaro said the same about Covid.
Brasil "safest" areas are the ones controlled by organized crime, which forces lockdown threatening to kill people wandering around with no reason.

[Grim Lock]

Well, for starters, the US has 4% of the world's population but 25% of its coronavirus cases. For some mysterious reason, there are other hard hit countries who have managed to get somewhat of a handle on this. The United States, not so much.

Don't think that's what we're talking about but alright.

Even if you want to go with that angle my thinking still makes sense. True, the US has about 3.8m case. And guess what, you add the # from the top 5 states and the sum accounts for almost half of that, take out the top ten and you'll have around 1mil left to distribute among the remaining 40 states.

Lol i don't get what the point is you are trying to make, are you saying the U.S. is not doing worse than Europe? Cuz if that's the case i'd take a good hard look at the numbers. Again the best doing countries in Europe are doing WAY better than the any state in the US, and worst aren't as bad as in the US, also the EU has a MUCH denser population, so if the point you are trying to make (incorrectly btw, we did close the borders to our neigbours and so did they with us, and living in a border town of 30.000 that gets normally 50.000 german visitors a month, i can tell you people listened to that) the EU should be in just as bad a shape as the US and that is just not the case.

[Vertigo 7]

Lol i don't get what the point is you are trying to make, are you saying the U.S. is not doing worse than Europe? Cuz if that's the case i'd take a good hard look at the numbers. Again the best doing countries in Europe are doing WAY better than the any state in the US, and worst aren't as bad as in the US, also the EU has a MUCH denser population, so if the point you are trying to make (incorrectly btw, we did close the borders to our neigbours and so did they with us, and living in a border town of 30.000 that gets normally 50.000 german visitors a month, i can tell you people listened to that) the EU should be in just as bad a shape as the US and that is just not the case.

Obviously, the problem is the white house pushing against efforts to contain and control the virus and states left to make up their own rules to deal with the virus thus creating a severely mixed and politicized message to the public.

Early on, Trump, in his infinite wisdom, refused to control supply of PPE and ventilators and states were literally stuck in a damn bidding war with the manufacturers to get the supplies they needed, thanks to Kushner liaising between the states and manufacturers. And as the body count started growing, Trump dismissed it, said "DA ECONOMIES!" and rallied a few governors to support his dismissal of the virus. So now we're seeing states like Georgia, Florida, Texas, Alabama, that weren't hit terribly hard in the beginning starting to severely spike because the message there was "it's cool, go lick door knobs, the stock market needs you!" and we're further away from having this under control than we were just a couple of months ago.

[Mightysword]

Lol i don't get what the point is you are trying to make ...

For stater, NOT taking what I said in a competitive sense might help you see the point.

I was simply making a suggestion. America is a 'very general' term that refer a collection of 50 states that under our federal government structure, has almost as much independent as a sovereign. When we talk about Europe, we specifically talk about each countries. Same thing about Asia, it looks great if you just look at the handful on the south-east sectors, it doesn't look too hot once you include others as well. So I merely suggest to @Observe that the situation would be more understable to look at the US's situation state by state, rather than casting a cynical net over the entire nation. Like I said, the action of mayors and governor have a much more direct impact.

... are you saying the U.S. is not doing worse than Europe?

No, that's what you said, not me. Or that's what you're trying to make it out to be. Again, not everything said is meant to be a competition.

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

No, that's what you said, not me. Or that's what you're trying to make it out to be. Again, not everything said is meant to be a competition.

Somebody should tell US government and governors it's not a competition. But if it was the case, I'm sure you don't win if you have MORE infected or deaths.

[Mightysword]

No, that's what you said, not me. Or that's what you're trying to make it out to be. Again, not everything said is meant to be a competition.

Somebody should tell US government and governors it's not a competition. But if it was the case, I'm sure you don't win if you have MORE infected or deaths.

I'm presenting my own view, not talking on behalf of the government.

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

No, that's what you said, not me. Or that's what you're trying to make it out to be. Again, not everything said is meant to be a competition.

Somebody should tell US government and governors it's not a competition. But if it was the case, I'm sure you don't win if you have MORE infected or deaths.

I'm presenting my own view, not talking on behalf of the government.

Of course, I was quoting just because it was related, but honestly what's happening in the USA is almost incredible to me. I mean, in Europe we've got our share of conspirationists and people who believes the virus doesn't exist or has been created for the most absurd things. But the USA has them in the places that count, and it's really strange to watch.

[Chips]

Lol i don't get what the point is you are trying to make ...

For stater, NOT taking what I said in a competitive sense might help you see the point.

I was simply making a suggestion. America is a 'very general' term that refer a collection of 50 states that under our federal government structure, has almost as much independent as a sovereign. When we talk about Europe, we specifically talk about each countries. Same thing about Asia, it looks great if you just look at the handful on the south-east sectors, it doesn't look too hot once you include others as well. So I merely suggest to @Observe that the situation would be more understable to look at the US's situation state by state, rather than casting a cynical net over the entire nation. Like I said, the action of mayors and governor have a much more direct impact.

... are you saying the U.S. is not doing worse than Europe?

No, that's what you said, not me. Or that's what you're trying to make it out to be. Again, not everything said is meant to be a competition.

I'm not sure anyone really understands what you're trying to say. It sounds like you're making excuses for why the US *isn't* that bad at handling the virus with false analogies. "But but we've got 50 states and 40 odd are fairing better/on a par with other countries". Twist a comparison to make yourself feel better, i'm sure the dead will take comfort.

Just accept the US has done far worse than any other nation on the planet in handling the virus, led by their great glorious magnificent (and orange) leader.

Mr "MUST GET YOU TO WORK MY PRESIDENCY DEPENDS UPON IT SOD YOUR LIVES".

I live in the UK; glass houses throwing stones - only difference is I think our Government has been inept in the extreme at handling this and readily acknowledge/accept and criticise them for it. I didn't at first, though they'd done ok... but as time evolved it rapidly became apparent they hadn't a clue.

A few things have been heart warming in all this - one is how some folks care and come together to help freely and without any constraints (i.e. financial etc); some being hugely overlooked too but getting on silently. On the flip side, I remember the mention of "blitz spirit" being something - yet over the last 1-2 months the steady drip of increasing numbers of individuals who literally "can't live without a party" makes a mockery of that term. Bit pathetic tbh.

[Mightysword]

Just accept the US has done far worse than any other nation on the planet in handling the virus,

Since when did I say something to the contrary? What, hasn't I been critical of the US response all along? Did you forget I'm the 'asian' who keep bringing up the effort on that side of the world comparing to the US? Wasn't I being critical not only of the government but also of the population and even the culture? That's not enough? Wasn't I'm often so critical of America that some people here said I have a very anti-American attitude? Why would I be making excuse on behalf of American then? Do I need to profess my displeasure in every single posts or people forget? Or is that the participants here can't remember anything said beyond 3 pages from the last?

AND - can a guy state some simple opinion or objective fact WITHOUT it being taken as either attacking or defending America? Or are you telling me those are the two lanes that exists for anyone who wants to traverse this thread?

Going back to the original quote:

Is America great enough yet?

Tbh, in situation like this it's probably easier to accept the situation if one view America as a collection of 50 countries, than try to find the rationality of one country. Look at Europe, there are countries that do well and there are ones that are doing badly. You look at Asia and it's the same, some are the subjects of admiration while some others make you wonder "wtf are they doing!?!?". Probably make more sense to look at how state/cities government are doing rather the whole country.

It was merely a suggestion of how to look at things to make it a bit easy to understand. It wasn't an argument. Did I say it was for the better or worse? No. It's people who can't help but try to impose a competitive narrative or make it into a binary argument that it got twisted away. In any case I said what I must, and explained my points as much as I could. If people still can't understand it or don't want to understand it, then let's just drop it.