[MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 4.x

[Scoob]

Further to my earlier comment. I took out the Xenon K and V attacking Hatikvah's Choice I, along with various other ships. Now, less than two hours later, I see an even larger fleet attacking this sector, consisting of: Xenon V, Xenon K and Xenon I along with loads of M's, N's and P's. Argon are still a no-show to defend their sector. I cannot face this new Xenon attack group.

It does seem a little excessive to have two fairly substantial attacks within two hours, though I don't know how long that prior group was around for before I engaged them.

Just trying to give some balance feedback more than anything, as I'm still quite early-game, having only recently set up my first station. I think Hatikvah's Choice I is lost in my game already...unless the Argon step up and send some ships in.

Scoob.

[ScandyNav]

Hi,

I'm using VRO - latest version - alongside Faction War / Economy Enhancer - latest Beta version of that too - and I have an unexpected situation. Xenon are causing havoc in Hatikvah's Choice I, nothing unusual there, however, the Argon are basically ignoring it. In Argon Prime they have a rather large amount of assets, a fraction of which could see off the two Xenon K's and other ships currently destroying stations and lots of shipping in Hatikvah's Choice I, yet they just sit there.

Basically, I'm trying to understand what sort of response I should be seeing from the Argon. Teladi forces have actually done more to fend off the Xenon than the Argon, but they got wiped out. I will attempt to defend the sector myself - though I have only two nicked Destroyers to help - but it'd be nice if it was a team effort.

I feel the game REALLY should be generating missions based on actual game events - this should trigger a full on "fend off Xenon invasion" sequence really, with other Factions being aware of what's going on. I saw fairly decent responses to threats earlier in the game, but, despite still having LOTS of military assets, the response seems to be non-existant currently.

I'm a little concerned that the Xenon might totally dominate again, like they did in my last game. Most of ZYA was gone by Day three, and the Xenon had advanced several sectors from their other starting areas.

Scoob.

This is something that cannot be predicted. From game to game events are randomized.
This is my current situation.
https://i.imgur.com/f0FgDiT.jpg

ZYA is gone. Xenon on the north got lots of shipyards. Very powerful, constant raids through Hatikvah.
But look at this:
https://i.imgur.com/pljNm8z.jpg
ARG helping.

[Scoob]

I get there's a degree of RNG at work, and Xenon behaviour might be different each game. I was more referring to the lack of response from the Argon when they have a good response fleet, if they choose to use it. The Xenon are being quite aggressive this time, but the Argon are being total pacifists.

I know both VRO and FWEE make various changes, so I guess this is about how the two play together. It's not so fun, early-game when the Xenon start steam rollering everyone and the Factions don't respond while they are in a GREAT position to do so.

I just hope the Argon start defending themselves soon, they have the assets, they just need to use them.

Note: I'm working to supply Argon Shipyards to allow them to build more, but it takes time and I NEED lots of the resource I'm ultimately providing (Hull Parts) to get set up.

Scoob.

[maseren]

So question, I've been using this mod seems like forever. What are the xenon like with vanilla?

And how do factions respond?

[Shuulo]

Here is heavy slot on Dragon Rider. No Boson Lance.

Coz boson is ZYA only

[Shuulo]

I was more referring to the lack of response from the Argon when they have a good response fleet, if they choose to use it. The Xenon are being quite aggressive this time, but the Argon are being total pacifists.

HAT are not really ARG, so ARG will only help if it has fleet power to spare, if they dont they will ignore it. And even if they have a large fleet in argon prime it doesnt mean they have enough fleets overall.

Also, Before yesterdays patch Xenons had too many I fleets in galaxy, they should disappear eventually and Xenons will be a bit calmer with obliterating galaxy.

[Scoob]

I was more referring to the lack of response from the Argon when they have a good response fleet, if they choose to use it. The Xenon are being quite aggressive this time, but the Argon are being total pacifists.

HAT are not really ARG, so ARG will only help if it has fleet power to spare, if they dont they will ignore it. And even if they have a large fleet in argon prime it doesnt mean they have enough fleets overall.

Also, Before yesterdays patch Xenons had too many I fleets in galaxy, they should disappear eventually and Xenons will be a bit calmer with obliterating galaxy.

I know that sector isn't ARG Territory, however it's ARG stations that are being destroyed at quite an alarming rate. I'd have thought ARG would respond when their assets are attack directly, or does it not work that way? I am hoping things will calm down, currently busy sourcing more Destroyers to take the fight to them.

The Xenon were a threat in vanilla too, however, during my time testing 3.0, I did notice that the Factions were FAR better than they were at dealing with them. I saw Fleet stationed in various Sectors bordering Xenon space, and those Fleet appeared to get reinforced as they took losses. Still, every game is indeed different and hopefully things will calm down with the recent changes.

I guess, for me, Xenon dominating is the norm, despite my best efforts

Edit: The Argon did eventually send in a Fleet, led by an Arawn. The tides have turned.... Wondering where the Xenon I went, didn't see that one go boom.

Edit 2: I spoke too soon! TWO Xenon I's, three K's and two V's just came through the Gate....are you sure you toned things down? I've been on the latest version of VRO for a good few hours now lol.

Scoob.

[Shuulo]

Edit 2: I spoke too soon! TWO Xenon I's, three K's and two V's just came through the Gate....are you sure you toned things down? I've been on the latest version of VRO for a good few hours now lol.

Scoob.

I did, but fleets already present will not disappear in an instant, It takes time and before that they will do their thing.

[Scoob]

I'd played for about four hours - more with SETA use - since updating and the Xenon just keep coming. I've checked out several other Sectors that border Xenon space and it's the same story.

You've got to admit, TWO Xenon I's, three K's and two V's - plus loads of smaller ships - is a BIG fleet. The Arawn patrolling the area did well, took out one K, but was destroyed by the I and another K/V combo. Not sure where the Taranis went, didn't see a wreck. Same for a Balor. Those ships did not stick together, which might have helped.

I'll get back in there when I'm ready and hopefully take out individual capital ships that have become separated.

Oh, I know Defence modules were changed to have less L-class Turrets - they were OP before - but every station I've seen has been poorly equipped. Plenty of lighter turrets, no heavy hitting ones so they fall to capital ships quite quickly.

Scoob.

[maseren]

I'd played for about four hours - more with SETA use - since updating and the Xenon just keep coming. I've checked out several other Sectors that border Xenon space and it's the same story.

You've got to admit, TWO Xenon I's, three K's and two V's - plus loads of smaller ships - is a BIG fleet. The Arawn patrolling the area did well, took out one K, but was destroyed by the I and another K/V combo. Not sure where the Taranis went, didn't see a wreck. Same for a Balor. Those ships did not stick together, which might have helped.

I'll get back in there when I'm ready and hopefully take out individual capital ships that have become separated.

Oh, I know Defence modules were changed to have less L-class Turrets - they were OP before - but every station I've seen has been poorly equipped. Plenty of lighter turrets, no heavy hitting ones so they fall to capital ships quite quickly.

Scoob.

You're right about defense platforms. its why i have been forced to block off many gates that the Xenon use, with defense platforms from hell. I think though what Shuulo did is working. I went in to Atya's Misfortuna, and found that the Xenon had an I, 3 Ks and 2 Vs in there, spread across, but had not sent them all attacking, which is good, but at the same time, not sure what is happening, but the factions aren't doing a great job protecting their territory, not sure if this has anything to do with VRO, faction enhancement or what, but it is a bit sad that i have to protect all the races, but hey why not.

Gotta say, i also have not seen an invasion by any faction in to Xenon territory.

[djrygar]

Oh, I know Defence modules were changed to have less L-class Turrets - they were OP before - but every station I've seen has been poorly equipped. Plenty of lighter turrets, no heavy hitting ones so they fall to capital ships quite quickly.

yep, because previously stations have been killing xenon destroyers, now its other way around - yesterday I saw xenon M trying to kill station. It managed to take 1/3 hull, but once I got close to it to see what is happening, fight went into IS mode and station killed M instantly. Nerfed stations are completely helpless OOS. In-sector its just perfect, not too strong, not too weak. Out of two evils, I think I prefer OP stations, especially with gateoverhaul, where the stations are basically on their own and far away from any fleet, noone ever comes with help, so it makes sense to make them powerful.
Constant Xenon attack weaken them anyway. Even if they look 100% healthy on the map after the attack, defense modules are damaged, so next attack probably will destroy them.

So, after being overwhelmed by xenons after 48 hours I start new game with removed station nerf and DA Ware addition and see how it goes this time.

Damn, balancing this thing is so hard.

[maseren]

Oh, I know Defence modules were changed to have less L-class Turrets - they were OP before - but every station I've seen has been poorly equipped. Plenty of lighter turrets, no heavy hitting ones so they fall to capital ships quite quickly.

yep, because previously stations have been killing xenon destroyers, now its other way around - yesterday I saw xenon M trying to kill station. It managed to take 1/3 hull, but once I got close to it to see what is happening, fight went into IS mode and station killed M instantly. Nerfed stations are completely helpless OOS. In-sector its just perfect, not too strong, not too weak. Out of two evils, I think I prefer OP stations, especially with gateoverhaul, where the stations are basically on their own and far away from any fleet, noone ever comes with help, so it makes sense to make them powerful.
Constant Xenon attack weaken them anyway. Even if they look 100% healthy on the map after the attack, defense modules are damaged, so next attack probably will destroy them.

So, after being overwhelmed by xenons after 48 hours I start new game with removed station nerf and DA Ware addition and see how it goes this time.

Damn, balancing this thing is so hard.

How did you remove the defense platform nerf??

[DeadAirRT]

Oh, I know Defence modules were changed to have less L-class Turrets - they were OP before - but every station I've seen has been poorly equipped. Plenty of lighter turrets, no heavy hitting ones so they fall to capital ships quite quickly.

yep, because previously stations have been killing xenon destroyers, now its other way around - yesterday I saw xenon M trying to kill station. It managed to take 1/3 hull, but once I got close to it to see what is happening, fight went into IS mode and station killed M instantly. Nerfed stations are completely helpless OOS. In-sector its just perfect, not too strong, not too weak. Out of two evils, I think I prefer OP stations, especially with gateoverhaul, where the stations are basically on their own and far away from any fleet, noone ever comes with help, so it makes sense to make them powerful.
Constant Xenon attack weaken them anyway. Even if they look 100% healthy on the map after the attack, defense modules are damaged, so next attack probably will destroy them.

So, after being overwhelmed by xenons after 48 hours I start new game with removed station nerf and DA Ware addition and see how it goes this time.

Damn, balancing this thing is so hard.

I guess it's the difference between the OOS values. I'm having trouble making stations not absolute gods haha.

[Max Bain]

I just checked the new defense module changes and I must say that I dont like them very much - sorry.
I do understand the reason for the change because they are too strong, but the design of the modules are made for the vanilla turret numbers.

I suggest another approach to balance them by adding some special L turrets that can only be fitted on these defense platforms (and no other turrets). These L turrets could have longer ranges but weaker damage than their ship versions and maybe higher inaccuracy or slower reload time. I know its more work, but its worth it and shouldnt be too complicated.

[DeadAirRT]

*snip*

If you get a chance, could you update a couple of your jobs. Right now VRO is adding about 500 fighters into game with DAGO (I don't mind but I think some people's CPUs might )

Code: Select all

<replace sel="//jobs/job[@id='xenon_fighter_escort_s_frigate']/quota[@wing='4']">
	<quota wing="7" variation="1"/>
</replace><!--vanilla replacement-->
<replace sel="//jobs/job[@id='xenon_fighter_escort_s_patrol']/quota[@wing='2']">
	<quota wing="6" variation="1"/>
</replace><!--vanilla replacement-->
<replace sel="//jobs/job[@id='xenon_free_miner_m_mineral']/quota[@cluster='8']/@cluster">7</replace><!--vanilla replacement-->
<replace sel="//jobs/job[@id='xenon_free_miner_m_mineral']/quota[@cluster='3']/@cluster">7</replace><!--FE replacement-->
<replace sel="//jobs/job[@id='xenon_free_trader_m_energy']/quota[@cluster='6'/@cluster">6</replace><!--vanilla replacement-->
<replace sel="//jobs/job[@id='xenon_free_trader_m_energy']/quota[@cluster='5'/@cluster">6</replace><!--FE replacement-->

[djrygar]

I suggest another approach to balance them by adding some special L turrets that can only be fitted on these defense platforms (and no other turrets). These L turrets could have longer ranges but weaker damage than their ship versions and maybe higher inaccuracy or slower reload time. I know its more work, but its worth it and shouldnt be too complicated.

funny, I was thinking about EXACTLY the same solution (even damage/range notion) and your Weapon Pack. Maybe these weapons could be incorporated into VRO and made station-only.

also, maybe nerfing just dics or bridge, not both? So its just smaller nerf. Production stations usually have bridge or two.

How did you remove the defense platform nerf??

unpacked, and removed assets/structures/defence dir

[Max Bain]

I suggest another approach to balance them by adding some special L turrets that can only be fitted on these defense platforms (and no other turrets). These L turrets could have longer ranges but weaker damage than their ship versions and maybe higher inaccuracy or slower reload time. I know its more work, but its worth it and shouldnt be too complicated.

funny, I was thinking about EXACTLY the same solution (even damage/range notion) and your Weapon Pack. Maybe these weapons could be incorporated into VRO and made station-only. It would make fine tuning much easier.

If Shuulo would do this, I would add a red and blue plasma defense version into my weapon pack with special defense tags. These versions would have longer ranges but lower dps.

[djrygar]

If Shuulo would do this, I would add a red and blue plasma defense version into my weapon pack with special defense tags. These versions would have longer ranges but lower dps.

thinking about it bit more, it would be very anticlimatic to have same weapons for all races.
My feeling is that nerfing just one type of module would be sufficient solution (and very quick to do, just removal of few files)
OR
special "stationary versions' of L weapons, or Long Range (and lower damage), with separate blueprints? That would be more lore-friendly.

[Shuulo]

I will think if I would like to spend some time on special turrets for stations, though im not the biggest fan of the idea.
As for under-equipped stations - this was the case before FE 4.72, and if your game started before that patch then you will have under-equipped old stations, newly built should be better equipped. (or your galaxy lacks materials for turrets)

In my latest over-night 24 hours tests game was quite balanced in terms of warfare

[Scoob]

I started a new game with the FE 4.73 Beta, yet stations in my game really aren't doing so well vs. Destroyers. I think, as others have said, stations seems weaker OOS than their IS abilities would suggest. Though they're still not doing great IS either. I know there's a large degree of variation between games, so I can only report how my game is going.

In other news, PAR and HOP are REALLY going at each other, HUGE fleets multiple capital ships. HOP are also having a go at ARG, having taken the adjacent sector already. The Xenon do concern me though, especially with ARG potentially being weakened somewhat by their conflict with HOP.

Things certainly aren't boring though

Edit: Btw, I just updated my personal Buzzard from 3x PAC's - very good weapon - to 2x HEPT and 1x PAC. However, the HEPT's do far less damage than the PAC's until all weapons overheat. In the stats the HEPT looks to be better per-shot, but is killed by its RoF. Is there any scenario in which the HEPT is better than the PAC in real term? In my tests, vs. S and M-Class targets, replacing two of my PAC's for HEPT's has hugely increased the time it takes to bring down a target's shields - the Buzzard in my force 'em to bail ship of choice. If HEPT's had a higher RoF with less heat build-up per shot, they'd be great.... I was expecting green blobs of death incidentally lol. I'm aware the HEPT does some hull damage through shields, but that's tiny.

Scoob.