Coronavirus: COVID-19

[Masterbagger]

@Mightysword, I don't think you've ever said, before, that you were Vietnamese (or American of Vietnamese heritage, or whatever), but my first guess, a long time ago, was right . Anyway, more to the point, yes, I've read a number of pieces saying that Vietnam has had "a good epidemic".

Vietnam, Taiwan, and any other country that has successfully responded to covid-19 deserves respect, and there may be lessons to be learned for all. But as per the "huh, you're taking firearms to protest being told to stay home to stay safe?" discussion, countries are different, and people are different.

"Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose"

(and that's not meant to reference Vietnam's, or France's for that matter, past btw).

it isn't an American value to trade liberty for safety. At least for some of us. There are enough that have either forgotten or never learned to create a conflict. Much of our best moments in the advancement of liberty have been been ordinary people refusing to do what they were told. It started with the King sending his regulars to Lexington to seize the magazine and carries on to modern times with people refusing the racism of Southern democrats enshrined in law by not moving to the back of the bus. Today we rally around barbers in Michigan and Texas who refused to not cut hair. It's just something we do in America. Just recently we let an overtly racist and antisemitic group gather in Georgia to protest with their rifles in hand for their own cause exactly as the people in Michigan did. I would not give the time of day to anyone in that former group but their right to protest is holy ground for me even if I find them repugnant. When you get down to the nuts and bolts of America the first and second amendments go together. Without the rifle the right to protest is a privilege that can be taken away at any whim. That is why you see both. I know it looks weird but this is our way.

And you're right, that balance is part of the cost. That's why in the past I kept arguing I don't put much fault on Western government responses (not just the US, but European as well). The way I see it, I don't think they had a choice but to take incremental steps. It's easier to levy criticism in hindsight that those steps were too little too late, but I think the fact people are protesting about the measures (after already fully aware the scale, scope, and severity of the pandemic) would give us a very good guess what would happened if strict - Asian-style measure were enforced right at the beginning even before the population at large perceive it as a threat. (My guess: it wouldn't be pretty).

Countries like Vietnam probably said "to hell with balance, all in, we're taking no chance!". Everything in moderation, including being moderated (think that came from Guild War 2).

If the commies were here welding the doors of peoples home shut or throwing them into steel boxes in the back of a truck from which they would never be seen again by their families that situation would be made to stop with a quickness. No, it would not be pretty. It would also not be worth it.

[Vertigo 7]

What the balance is? How they shake out? In a democracy we get some say, retrospectively. That might be part of the cost.

And you're right, that balance is part of the cost. That's why in the past I kept arguing I don't put much fault on Western government responses (not just the US, but European as well). The way I see it, I don't think they had a choice but to take incremental steps. It's easier to levy criticism in hindsight that those steps were too little too late, but I think the fact people are protesting about the measures (after already fully aware the scale, scope, and severity of the pandemic) would give us a very good guess what would happened if strict - Asian-style measure were enforced right at the beginning even before the population at large perceive it as a threat. (My guess: it wouldn't be pretty).

Were they truly aware? Given Faux News and Trump both telling people it's no big deal, it'll just magically go away, and the gullible lapping it all up? You still have people, to this very day, saying there's no threat and it's just a seasonal flu and believing the BS that's coming out of the white house and from Faux. You and I were aware. We didn't listen to Trump and the talking heads on the TV. But not everyone is going to listen to people that have an actual clue as to what they're talking about. There's your democracy at work, the right to be stupid and uninformed, and they're exercising it to their fullest ability. I just don't get what possible benefit there could be to spreading disinformation about this virus that has claimed so many lives.

[Mightysword]

it isn't an American value to trade liberty for safety.

And? Are you assuming that's just an American thing? I don't know much you know about Vietnam history, but over the thousands of years of our existence we had to fight for our liberty far more times against far more overwhelming foes than the US ever had. And the same can probably be said to majority of countries of the world. These days "liberty or deaths" maybe something often come from the mouth of an American, but much more bloods have been spilled on that idea long before the US itself came into existence. So no, I don't see these situation as having anything to do with liberty in its traditional sense. If there is one thing that set the US culture apart, it's the heighten sense of individualism. I can assure you my culture know as much if not more about the value of liberty as the US culture, but in place of individualism, we put more emphasis on collectivism, and that has nothing to do with politic.

Having individualism itself is not bad thing, at time it's even a +. But dealing with a communal crisis is hardly the time and place to flex that individualism.

To be frank - liberty or death - ever sicne I came to the US I had never seen a single appropriate application for it, it's just a rally cry to justify selfishness. At least on the real battlefield the soldiers who chant "liberty of death" are the one charging the enemies line and scarify their life for the liberty they won't survive to see. In the case of a pandemic like this, those chanting "liberty or death" probably won't be the one dying. And remind me what exactly are they scarifying?

At least for some of us.

Luckily, at least you are correct in this regard. The situation doesn't get worse because it's only "some of us", I would hate to see what happened if this mindset apply to "most of us". And like I said, that has nothing to do with liberty.

[fiksal]

So this is when Mightysword turns on Masterbagger, or the other way around

[Vertigo 7]

So this is when Mightysword turns on Masterbagger, or the other way around

lol i dunno... mighty makes a pretty good point about the "liberty or death" rallying cry. And it's not like he's pushing conspiracy theories or promoting a racist agenda. I find myself a bit shocked, I actually really liked his comment. It's the first truly rational thing I've seen out of him.

[Masterbagger]

So this is when Mightysword turns on Masterbagger, or the other way around

Nope. Respect. He gives it and he has more than earned it back. I also like him. Even if we disagree on this particular point.

[RegisterMe]

it isn't an American value to trade liberty for safety.

And? Are you assuming that's just an American thing? I don't know much you know about Vietnam history, but over the thousands of years of our existence we had to fight for our liberty far more times against far more overwhelming foes than the US ever had. And the same can probably be said to majority of countries of the world. These days "liberty or deaths" maybe something often come from the mouth of an American, but much more bloods have been spilled on that idea long before the US itself came into existence. So no, I don't see these situation as having anything to do with liberty in its traditional sense. If there is one thing that set the US culture apart, it's the heighten sense of individualism. I can assure you my culture know as much if not more about the value of liberty as the US culture, but in place of individualism, we put more emphasis on collectivism, and that has nothing to do with politic.

Having individualism itself is not bad thing, at time it's even a +. But dealing with a communal crisis is hardly the time and place to flex that individualism.

To be frank - liberty or death - ever sicne I came to the US I had never seen a single appropriate application for it, it's just a rally cry to justify selfishness. At least on the real battlefield the soldiers who chant "liberty of death" are the one charging the enemies line and scarify their life for the liberty they won't survive to see. In the case of a pandemic like this, those chanting "liberty or death" probably won't be the one dying. And remind me what exactly are they scarifying?

At least for some of us.

Luckily, at least you are correct in this regard. The situation doesn't get worse because it's only "some of us", I would hate to see what happened if this mindset apply to "most of us". And like I said, that has nothing to do with liberty.

Great post!

[Mightysword]

So this is when Mightysword turns on Masterbagger, or the other way around

Eh, I think for the most part, badger and I disagree on things more often than not. The occasional lapse is usually because the shared suspicious about the media, and even that I think our motives are difference.

If you think otherwise, you may have mistaken amicable with agreement. It's a mutual respect that we can still hold a conversation despite with that much difference in between.

[Alan Phipps]

Please get back to discussing the thread topic.

[CBJ]

Well, so much for "follow the science". Today's UK briefing by the education secretary was blatantly political and highly emotive. It amounted to "won't somebody think of the children?", complete with faux-emotional delivery. The only mention of science was when they kept repeating what we already know, that children are relatively unlikely to suffer badly from the illness, but they completely brushed under the carpet the lack of evidence regarding their role as a vector. But it's all fine, because they can just divert attention from the lack of scientific evidence by accusing by teachers of being unreasonable for not wanting to risk their lives by returning to work uniquely unprotected. I guess it was too much to ask for politicians to keep it up for long.

[felter]

There is also that strain of the virus going around the only effects kids, and it is supposed to be pretty nasty. While it may not be deadly it is not something you want your kids to catch and I suspect the only way they can catch it, is form other kids their same age.

[RegisterMe]

https://unherd.com/2020/05/what-the-hea ... -tell-you/

That's an interesting piece on why "headline" R isn't always... straightforward.

[fiksal]

So this is when Mightysword turns on Masterbagger, or the other way around

lol i dunno... mighty makes a pretty good point about the "liberty or death" rallying cry. And it's not like he's pushing conspiracy theories or promoting a racist agenda. I find myself a bit shocked, I actually really liked his comment. It's the first truly rational thing I've seen out of him.

He has his moments, I agree on about 30% that he says

So this is when Mightysword turns on Masterbagger, or the other way around

Eh, I think for the most part, badger and I disagree on things more often than not. The occasional lapse is usually because the shared suspicious about the media, and even that I think our motives are difference.

If you think otherwise, you may have mistaken amicable with agreement. It's a mutual respect that we can still hold a conversation despite with that much difference in between.

Hm. It's indeed possible I havent read or have missed your disagreements.

...that children are relatively unlikely to suffer badly from the illness...

Well surprise on this one. Both New York and Toronto are reporting a strange (and deadly) disease linked to positively tested toddles. A scary and sad coincidence.

Maybe I am lazy, but what's the state of things in England? Re-opening?
For comparison, one of my "home" states in US is fully re-opening, because who really cares. Whereas my "home" city in that State is basically saying the governor is extremely stupid.

Where I live right now however is still on lock down, but flirting with the idea.

[pjknibbs]

We're not re-opening, but some restrictions are being lifted. It's still queues and social distancing while shopping, though, and I suspect it will be for the foreseeable future.

[euclid]

I'm worried that the protests against social distancing is just the start. It might well end up in violent demonstrations, a second wave of infections and, I do hope I'm wrong, military checkpoints.

Cheers Euclid

[Gavrushka]

I'm worried that the protests against social distancing is just the start. It might well end up in violent demonstrations, a second wave of infections and, I do hope I'm wrong, military checkpoints.

Cheers Euclid

I hope you're wrong, but another neighbour has started grumbling about 'not trusting the government,' and I received a call from a sensible neighbour, who'd spotted the grumblers (from different households) stood inches apart on the village green. I worry those predisposed not to support the incumbent government now feel they cannot contain themselves. - My region (traditionally a labour heartland) has the highest R rate and number of new infections in the country, and I tried pointing that out to stupid neighbour (who'd knocked on my bloody door to tell me of a death in the village) that things were bad here, and he just said 'no, no!' and rushed off. LOL... I did consider telling him to stop knocking on my bloody door (I'm fed up of disinfecting it) but him and his wife are so sozzled on wine, they'd forget by the next glassful.

And there's slightly brighter news; it turns out there's been a cure for the virus (and sticky out ears) for over 50 years. It's most efficacious in every way.

[TSM]

I don't trust UK government they took to long to react, lifting lockdown despite medical advice as they know best, the TSM household will stay in lockdown until there is a vaccine.

and Hi all long time of no posting for me

[RegisterMe]

I don't trust UK government they took to long to react, lifting lockdown despite medical advice as they know best, the TSM household will stay in lockdown until there is a vaccine.

and Hi all long time of no posting for me

There might never be a vaccine.

[pjknibbs]

There might never be a vaccine.

Got a citation for that? I can't see any reason why we shouldn't be able to produce a vaccine for this thing--it doesn't seem to mutate as rapidly as the common cold does, and we managed to produce a vaccine for the closely related SARS virus back in 2004.

[RegisterMe]

There might never be a vaccine.

Got a citation for that? I can't see any reason why we shouldn't be able to produce a vaccine for this thing--it doesn't seem to mutate as rapidly as the common cold does, and we managed to produce a vaccine for the closely related SARS virus back in 2004.

I've seen much commentary from medics and scientists saying that whilst they expect to have a vaccine, there are no guarantees, and pointing out eg that we don't have a vaccine for HIV even after twenty or thirty years of work on it.

But no, I don't have a citation to hand. Let me go see what I can dig out.

EDIT: Here you go:-

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg ... s-vaccine/

"Yet there is no guarantee that it is even possible to vaccinate against the coronavirus. There is a lot we don’t know yet about how our immune systems respond to the virus, and whether it is possible to induce long-lasting immunity to it".