[MOD] Variety and Rebalance Overhaul (VRO) 4.x

[Shuulo]

Hey all,

I use VRO with the XR Ship Pack and Faction War / Economy Enhancer. One of the new ship - not listed as part of the XR Ship Pack - is the Destroyer-Class Incarcatura Raider. This is a fairly light destroyer based on the Freighter. In my game it's equipped in an Anti-Fighter role, using Large Flak Artillery Arrays and CWIS. In-sector it absolutely dominates even fairly large fighter groups. OOS however, it can't even handle a single Xenon P at times.

I just noticed mine was engaged with a single Xenon P and thought no more of it. Watching the fight however the Destroyer's shields are low and it's lost half its hull. I'm having to send a Monitor over for fire support and repairs.

What could be causing such a huge imbalance between In and Out of Sector combat here? Generally, things aren't too bad in that regard, this particular ship, with this particular load-out seems to be an exception. This isn't the first time a small group of Fighters has given this ship a hard time OOS. Teleporting in sees it dominate.

Scoob.

Are you on 3.2 beta? in 3.1 there was a bug that could lead to some ships not apply damage OOS, it mostly influenced ships that are initially constructed without turrets and when those were added later, but you cannot be sure and that Incarcatura Raider was spawned as its SCA ship and I assume you captured it. So its possible that it is affected by that bug as well.

[Scoob]

Are you on 3.2 beta? in 3.1 there was a bug that could lead to some ships not apply damage OOS, it mostly influenced ships that are initially constructed without turrets and when those were added later, but you cannot be sure and that Incarcatura Raider was spawned as its SCA ship and I assume you captured it. So its possible that it is affected by that bug as well.

Yes, I'm currently on v3.2 Beta 1 HF1, so that particular bug should be gone. I did indeed capture the ship - I don't think it's for sale anywhere - I have several of this ship and they all suck OOS now, where they'd been fine in the past. They had done so well that I regularly put them on area patrol at choke points, now they die unless I teleport to them during combat.

Scoob.

[Manawydn]

I'm pretty sure the Raider is sold by either Antigone or Hatikvah, but don't quote me on it. I know that it was available for purchase at a shipyard with the right rep, +10 I believe. Anyways, I am also having trouble with fleets getting rekt OOS, and being super OP in sector, but I'm not sure how that could be managed. It's kinda-sorta beyond a modder's hands, since it deals with maths and such, so as a modder you can't just stick 2x more turrets and cut the hull in half expecting the same results. In Vanilla, the IS/OOS thing sorta gives reason to the Cap-ship-with-no-turrets model, and is a pain to deal with, even strictly from a gameplay perspective like my own. Doing something like simply adding turret hardpoint in exchange for health or shield pool can have wildly varying results between IS and OOS combat, and like I said, I personally haven't the faintest clue as to how one would go about addressing it.

Honestly, all vanilla non-split ships are lackluster, except for the Paranids, due to their high speed and shield recharge. Kinda sucks feeling like I always gotta pick between Split or Paranid (Vanilla). Maybe VRO will figure out a decent formula as far as avg turret-hull-price ratios go. S and M ships do fine, L and XL are lackluster, with the exception of the Odysseus and Split ships. Odysseus is ugly, but at least it has decent turret coverage and a wider use-case due to the medium sized dock.

[Lord Dakier]

Has anyone seen capital ships randomly aggroing allied stations? I was tabbed out on the internet and then when I tabbed in to look at the map I found my carrier duking it out with a Teladi shipyard I told it to dock at. The only enemies I have are Xenon and HOP and this was all out of sector.

[nikoli grimm]

I love the idea of this mod and use it, but, just like the vanilla game, the engine balance has never made sense to me.
A craft with one engine should NOT be faster than a craft with two, three, or four of the same engines in the same class. Reduced return with more engines, (thrust), but more overall speed. Without gravity and drag, a larger craft with the same size engine as a smaller craft may take longer to reach peak acceleration, but it would get there eventually.

Looking at two small craft. The Jaguar, (one engine), as opposed to the Chimera, (four engines). For some reason the Jaguar is much faster overall though they are basically the same size. Drag in space would play a much lower roll in a crafts speed, and thrust a much larger one. Equal and opposite reaction should come into play,.

Granted, for any given race, you have three types of engines with three grades of quality each, but it should be the engine that defines the speed of a crafts top acceleration, NOT the craft itself. A smaller craft (in the same class) would have a greater initial burst of speed, because of less mass, than a larger one, even if the larger craft had more engines, but the larger craft would be able to catch and surpass it, given enough time on a straight path because thrust would overcome mass.

[kmunoz]

I love the idea of this mod and use it, but, just like the vanilla game, the engine balance has never made sense to me.
A craft with one engine should NOT be faster than a craft with two, three, or four of the same engines in the same class. Reduced return with more engines, (thrust), but more overall speed. Without gravity and drag, a larger craft with the same size engine as a smaller craft may take longer to reach peak acceleration, but it would get there eventually.

Looking at two small craft. The Jaguar, (one engine), as opposed to the Chimera, (four engines). For some reason the Jaguar is much faster overall though they are basically the same size. Drag in space would play a much lower roll in a crafts speed, and thrust a much larger one. Equal and opposite reaction should come into play,.

Granted, for any given race, you have three types of engines with three grades of quality each, but it should be the engine that defines the speed of a crafts top acceleration, NOT the craft itself. A smaller craft (in the same class) would have a greater initial burst of speed, because of less mass, than a larger one, even if the larger craft had more engines, but the larger craft would be able to catch and surpass it, given enough time on a straight path because thrust would overcome mass.

The idea of variable top speeds in space, in general, is goofy. The only significant concern would be micro-impacts and that's a function of shielding, not engines. I decided to head-canon the idea that top speeds are artificially limited based on the ship's role. Fighters need to move fast, so they are not as limited, exchanging speed for the risk of micro-impacts (which don't happen in the game, but whatever).

Heck, even the idea that larger vessels would naturally turn more slowly is goofy. Bigger vessels can take significantly larger maneuvering thrusters, and any structural stress that would result can't possibly be worse than the effects of a weapon impact on the hull - which doesn't immediately debilitate a ship in X4, so neither should structural stress from using big maneuvering thrusters.

[djrygar]

Shuulo, which file is responsible for nerfing defense modules?
While I was all for it at beginning, after several gamestarts I think its bad idea and want to remove that for myself. I'm playing with focw so xenons are steamrolling trough universe killing everything even before FE starts unleashing its own xenons.
I looked on upacked archive, but there is just too much stuff, cannot find right macro.

Also, when starting new game I still get message about Xenon Gods giving them stuff, which is likely a problem.

[Shuulo]

Also, when starting new game I still get message about Xenon Gods giving them stuff, which is likely a problem.

Xenon gods is not a problem, it will not do much if their economy is not dead.

While I was all for it at beginning, after several gamestarts I think its bad idea and want to remove that for myself. I'm playing with focw so xenons are steamrolling trough universe killing everything even before FE starts unleashing its own xenons.

Of coarse it will not be a good idea if you use FOCW as it is only for those who look for much bigger challenge, and them steamrolling is what you will get.
VRO was not balanced for FOCW so your situation is not the result of VRO balancing for defense structures.

I looked on upacked archive, but there is just too much stuff, cannot find right macro.

assets - structures - defense (split stuff is in extension folder)

[djrygar]

assets - structures - defense (split stuff is in extension folder)

Oh, fantastic!

I really like what you did to xenon ships in last version, they are not so easy to kill anymore. M6 has not enough dps now to overcome healing of destroyer/carrier, great, this is how it should be.
All I can do with m6 is help bigger guys or stations to kill them. Havent tried Nemesis with those blue lasers again yet, tho, but I'm getting impression you made reload/recharge longer, so it should be fine I guess.

[Rastuasi]

Is the panther's docking bay intersections just as they will be or is it a temporary bug that they intersect? It is a bit shocking to suddenly be surrounded when docking with your fighter.

[Scoob]

Hi,

I captured a Split Elephant in a fresh game start with 3.2 Beta 1 + HF1. It says it can dock 12 S-Class ships, but mine can only dock three. Any ships ordered to dock after that try, but I get an "Order cannot be completed" message. Is the Ship Overview information wrong, or is it something else?

Edit: Ships get totally stuck, those trying to dock have one of those annoying (broken) "Critical" dock orders, even though they cannot dock. They will accept NO other orders due to this vanilla issue. I hate Critical orders!

Scoob.

[maseren]

assets - structures - defense (split stuff is in extension folder)

Oh, fantastic!

I really like what you did to xenon ships in last version, they are not so easy to kill anymore. M6 has not enough dps now to overcome healing of destroyer/carrier, great, this is how it should be.
All I can do with m6 is help bigger guys or stations to kill them. Havent tried Nemesis with those blue lasers again yet, tho, but I'm getting impression you made reload/recharge longer, so it should be fine I guess.

Just wondering,you said Nemesis with blue lasers? what blue lasers are those?

[Entissus]

Is there any change, even though its so small, that you can add the Panther to the Fallen Split licence akin to what has been done with Zyarth and the Free Families? I know in a "normal" game this wouldn't have any impact at all but for those of us playing with DeadAir's Overhaul mod, it makes it so the fleshed out Fallen Split faction doesn't have access to this ship

I know I can personally go into the mod and modify the licence myself since this is a pretty.. one off situation; I can't imagine many people have VRO+Gate Overhaul and want to be a Fallen Split.. its just something I noticed and have on my "wish list" of little items

[Shuulo]

Is there any change, even though its so small, that you can add the Panther to the Fallen Split licence akin to what has been done with Zyarth and the Free Families? I know in a "normal" game this wouldn't have any impact at all but for those of us playing with DeadAir's Overhaul mod, it makes it so the fleshed out Fallen Split faction doesn't have access to this ship

I know I can personally go into the mod and modify the licence myself since this is a pretty.. one off situation; I can imagine many people have VRO+Gate Overhaul and want to be a Fallen Split.. its just something I noticed and have on my "wish list" of little items

will be in 2.1.8

[Entissus]

Thank you very much! And thank you for all you've done for the game

As another note; all the new weapons etc etc would have to be given to them as well.. as currently they only have the Split weapons. Which might be pretty thematic seeing as they are kinda the Split pirate/outcasts but might be a bit of a disadvantage

[djrygar]

Just wondering,you said Nemesis with blue lasers? what blue lasers are those?

in fact, any lasers. Just got Nemesis with cheapest weapon on it and unfortunately I can still wreck K's. Its not weapons, its Nemesis that is super powerful. 5 guns on front will decimate turrets.
Xenon I is a problem tho. Maybe just K that is not really powerful... In can kill any npc destroyer, but player can kill it with corvette. It has too many blind spots when fighting upclose.

[Shuulo]

Just wondering,you said Nemesis with blue lasers? what blue lasers are those?

in fact, any lasers. Just got Nemesis with cheapest weapon on it and unfortunately I can still wreck K's. Its not weapons, its Nemesis that is super powerful. 5 guns on front will decimate turrets.
Xenon I is a problem tho. Maybe just K that is not really powerful... In can kill any npc destroyer, but player can kill it with corvette. It has too many blind spots when fighting upclose.

This is something that cannot be fixed by a mod, its a game flaw (many people see it not as flaw but an interesting mechanic for player to use).
I cant put turrets on every meter of the Ks hull, though I put L and 4 M turrets on its back, so its not as bad as vanilla

[maseren]

Just wondering,you said Nemesis with blue lasers? what blue lasers are those?

in fact, any lasers. Just got Nemesis with cheapest weapon on it and unfortunately I can still wreck K's. Its not weapons, its Nemesis that is super powerful. 5 guns on front will decimate turrets.
Xenon I is a problem tho. Maybe just K that is not really powerful... In can kill any npc destroyer, but player can kill it with corvette. It has too many blind spots when fighting upclose.

This is something that cannot be fixed by a mod, its a game flaw (many people see it not as flaw but an interesting mechanic for player to use).
I cant put turrets on every meter of the Ks hull, though I put L and 4 M turrets on its back, so its not as bad as vanilla

Let's be honest here, this is a player skill, not a weakness of Ks. I'm not as good as you, and shooting turrets while staying alive isn't as easy for me, also usually there are many small xenon ships fighting me as well, so...

Also Dragon has 6 guns in front, with the possibility of torpedoes, so honestly, nemesis isn't the best out there. With the powerful torpedoes, I can climb right up on the back of a K and torpedo it for almost 100k of damage.

And in every game there has to be ships that are better than others, what's the point otherwise. I really would hate it if shuulo would start weakening ships that others see as OP. I'd have to change my whole fleet.

[djrygar]

I can climb right up on the back of a K and torpedo it for almost 100k of damage.

thats exactly how you start with K

clear his back first, so you have some freedom of movement and place to hide (once you destroy his spinal guns, you are safe there)
then sides, descend where engines are, there is small gun and shield towards read end, thats 2 salvos, they are weak, and basically you have lots of freedom of movement then.
you can either disable engines or his front guns, depending of situation. If battle is close to station, I tend to disable guns first, so it makes less damage to station. But with 5-6 guns you can disable engines very quickly, makes him even easier to kill

Funniest kill was when there was 2 destroyers, I used one to kill other one - disabled his stuff, and I was lurking from behind partially disabled K and provoking other one to shoot. Occasionally he was hitting his fellow with those nasty yellow balls taking few percent dmg each time.

[Shuulo]

Version 2.1.8
Fully compatible with previous saves.
At first I decided to hold and wait for full 3.2 release that I hoped will be out last Friday, but it didnt. Instead I cut out some things I planned and now this mod is more a balancing patch and QoL improvement. Content patch will be the next one.

Remember - VRO is balanced only with FE in mind to have more or less balanced game between factions. If you want to increase the challenge or want to use shipmods i suggest to use FOCW mod to configure the game in the way you want. People usually want different things and its impossible for me to satisfy everyone.

Notable Xenon Changes:
- decreased amount of Xenons Is in attacking fleets from 3-5 to 1-2 in galaxy. 2 attacking Is will be a very rare sight.
- increased amount of Xen destroyers in defense fleets only (they will not attack), so they will not loose territories that fast to some factions.

Other notable changes:
- Missile prices in credits went down a bit more to eliminate huge profitability from them, high-end missiles are still expensive.
- balanced S and M beam weapons
- balanced all Muon guns, Heavy mortar and Boson Lance.
- Shield modules capacities were rebalanced, L/XL +3%, M +20%, S +25%. This will make fighters a bit more survivable.
- OOS modifiers were revamped again, should be closer to IS now, rattlesnakes should not dominate OOS as they did before
- Based on performance - Rattlesnake is tiny bit more expensive and slower, Teladi Phoenix is a bit cheaper.
- nerfed Split Heavy Lance, was unintentionally too powerful making it weapon of choice in most situations.
- finally fixed Centaur collision mesh so its correct now.
- improved hull values of Elite

Miscellaneous:
- Panther added for fallen splits, so they can build it with DeadAirs Gate Overhaul installed.
- cargo drones are faster and more maneuverable
- improved Rattlesnake loadouts to decrease amount of under-equipped ships

Translation and Encyclopedia update
- Added RU translation, thanks to Blazard
- Updated English text, German, French, Japanese translations (thanks to o-papaya-o, UH-XTC, UresiiZo and Le Leon)
- Updated names and Encyclopedia entries for all turrets to have M-L size distinction
- Updated names and Encyclopedia entries for all weapons with color code and prefixed to distinguish between weapon sizes and classes better (thanks to Le Leon for idea and implementation)