Skill and training Feedback

[Mackan]

Very interesting.

From what I experimented with experiences.xml I also noticed there seemed to be a maximum level of XP that certain actions generate.

For example, a "normal" trade run will give piloting XP up to 3 stars. After that it no longer delivers experience.

Correct.

This and the extremely harsh falloff values seem to be two different solutions to the same problem. Not completely insufferable on their own but together they hold the game hostage like some anti-fun police.

[TonyEvans]

Ah, this is kinda funny.

Funny in that ES put in a terrible system and played it off as working well.

Not funny as in I'll be laughing about this the next time I have to run pointless missions for seminars that don't even fully level a pilot up by one star. It's like 3 seminars per rank (in each skill). So, 3 L2 Seminars to get from Piloting 2 to Piloting 3. And those missions are far and few inbetween. Not finding a practical way to level up Morale, either. Seems to have capped at 2.

[Raevyan]

Well I played some more hours (~8) today. None of my pilots gained any piloting skill. My station traders gaining management skill, managers getting management skill, service crew getting engineering skill, and my rattlesnake that’s patrolling a split sector with 4 xenon stations is gaining Moral for the captain and engineering for the crew. Oh and manual traders getting management too. My boarding crew are gaining boarding skill as well.

NONE is gaining any skill in piloting... the system works perfectly fine in preventing ppl getting „cash cows“. BTW there are a lot more ways to gain more money by doing nothing, like auto traders fully automated (e.g. stations). Sure they need more cash and time to get going but..

[Tharrg]

My suggestion for seminars FWIW:

When you buy seminars, you buy the copyright to show it to all your employees that are in the appropriate career path. Piolet for captains etc...

The 0-star seminar you can just buy for something like 40K. The higher ones you need to do missions and have sufficient reputation with someone.

All employees on the appropriate path automatically take seminars with the exception that you cannot do seminars higher than your moral.

Everyone has at least 0 moral, so anyone automatically does the 0-star seminar if appropriate for them and available. But to do a 3-star seminar, you need a moral of at least 3-stars. If your moral is not high enough you just have to do it the long way round. There should probably be a moral based delay built-in as well.

Moral boosts are different, being one use. So you can use up a morale boost on one employe to boost there moral than its gone. Otherwise moral increases slowly over time.

Everything except for morale boosts are completely automatic.

[zakaluka]

In addition I would imagine that each of the levels 1..15 is a *third* of a star. That would give you a total of five stars with the thirds we see in progression now.

But these numbers do not seem like the whole picture.... Hopefully there is more to it, in context. Situational bonuses, something.

[Lander1979]

I gave vanilla an honest try, but ended up having to apply a mod. The vanilla skill increase feels too slow, slow to the point of being stagnant.

[MaGicBush]

I have not played the last 5 months, and just started diving in yesterday. Minus a VERY annoying issue with Windows OneDrive(my save got deleted and I lost 3 or 4 hours) I was having fun, besides having to manually control my miners constantly. I looked it up, and am seeing it takes on average 50 hours to level a pilot up to 3 stars. This is absurd. I tend to only play a save for about 100 hours before I move on. This wont take into effect pilots dying from xenon and other threats while they are out auto-trading. The game is not fun in this state. I want to play so I will probably just use the mod, but I don't feel like I should have to. The game should be fun without mods, but requiring the player to micro a bunch of miners and traders for hours upon hours is just not fun at all. There needs to be a faster way to level up pilots, or just the speed at which they level should be quicker. At least up to 3 stars, or allow level 3 seminars be easier to obtain.

[Sandalpocalypse]

You don't need to manuall control your miners. Sector AutoMiner is a zero-star activity, though more advanced autominers are 3 and 5 stars.

[Gavrushka]

On Sector miners, I'd not realised until fairly recently you had to check the availability of minable resources in a sector *AND* check for local demand. - Prior, I'd just slapped any in anywhere, and wondered why they did nothing. - They do level fairly well if you don't overload a sector and kill demand. - But, yeah, it takes time. - I've played almost 750 hours of X4 since purchase on release day, and almost all of them were on the same game, so I guess I've adjusted to the slow levelling. - *HOWEVER* I do accept it's too slow, seminars are too clunky to apply (make 'em available to apply on shipbuilding screen) and the methods of levelling clueless pilots are far too limited for many, many players.

One thing I feel confident of saying: Egosoft will be addressing this right now, and changes will come in days/weeks not months. - It's what they do. It's what they've always done.

[chew-ie]

One thing I feel confident of saying: Egosoft will be addressing this right now, and changes will come in days/weeks not months. - It's what they do. It's what they've always done.

^This. While everybody is entitled to dump his/her/its opinion here, it was already said that there will be more work on this. So patience is a virtue.


And on a side note: the game goes on despite there are "no" 3 star pilots. I have yet to meet a game situation where having those is absolutely crucial. Money flows like there is no tomorrow, fleets kill Xenon no matter what pilot skill there is. The economy has no problem whatsover [as the war goes on].

[Alm888]

The problem with the experience gain system is that, well, there is none...

Good work on your research!
I've suspected something like this, considering there are no fractional numbers for stars in NPC descriptions of saves (only positive integers from 0 to 15).
I think EgoSoft should rework the whole system. Make it something akin to reputation gains/losses. They can keep conditions preventing experience gains from certain tasks beyond certain levels.
I generally dislike anything "luck" (RNG) based. If I was into that sort of games, I'd rather hang out in a casino or around slot machines. IMO, each outcome should be a direct consequence of player's actions. RNG should only be used to make games less pre-determined ("chess-like") in situations setting up input for player to react, like random AI actions/mistakes.

P.S. Really don't like the battle system of "The Battle for Wesnoth" where simple rolls can either miraculously save a doomed unit from a killing blow, or destroy a strong unit by simple "bad luck".

[Gavrushka]

And on a side note: the game goes on despite there are "no" 3 star pilots. I have yet to meet a game situation where having those is absolutely crucial. Money flows like there is no tomorrow, fleets kill Xenon no matter what pilot skill there is. The economy has no problem whatsover [as the war goes on].

I had a tremendous sense of wellbeing (pride even) when a fleet of Nemeses* accompanied by Buzzards, all unskilled, took down an 'I' before my capital class ships arrived. I lost a boatload, but I'd never given such a woot of joy after victory in prior encounters. The lack of 3* by default does bring a few changes to gameplay, perhaps more so in the early game than later, but I've sure learned to adjust in a positive way since their removal.

*Yea, that is the plural of Nemesis.

[chew-ie]

And on a side note: the game goes on despite there are "no" 3 star pilots. I have yet to meet a game situation where having those is absolutely crucial. Money flows like there is no tomorrow, fleets kill Xenon no matter what pilot skill there is. The economy has no problem whatsover [as the war goes on].

I had a tremendous sense of wellbeing (pride even) when a fleet of Nemeses* accompanied by Buzzards, all unskilled, took down an 'I' before my capital class ships arrived. I lost a boatload, but I'd never given such a woot of joy after victory in prior encounters. The lack of 3* by default does bring a few changes to gameplay, perhaps more so in the early game than later, but I've sure learned to adjust in a positive way since their removal.

*Yea, that is the plural of Nemesis.

That's because of the Buzzards - those saved the day

[Gavrushka]

That's because of the Buzzards - those saved the day

The Buzzards surprised me... I knew they were pretty decent in sector, but OOS they survived far better than the corvettes. - I'm gonna equip all my carriers with a fleet of 'em, and they'll have MK4 combat engines which'll be a big boost. - Might do a few with those mega-range Split Boson lances? as they're like a torpedo that auto-replenishes after half a minute or so. - Who needs 3* pilots when inept ones will do the job, and those who survive will level anyhow.

I know it's hard for players to let go of something they've always had (it sure was for me,) but just try some unskilled pilots in your combat fleets. - Yes, losses will be higher, but you'll have the pleasure of knowing those who survive will gain skill through doing what they do. (And, yes, I do acknowledge the counter-argument.)

[Tarazu]

It’s nice to hear that the devs are looking into this. The vanilla game is unplayable. The progression of trading pilot skill should be sector miner > autominer & distribute wares > autotrader. It’s just broken now. In my split game the split economy broke down and I was unable to save the economy in time. Xenon are now pushing in with K’s while there are no split capitals able to defend. I will restart (modded) and fix their economy properly.

[Sandalpocalypse]

That's because of the Buzzards - those saved the day

The Buzzards surprised me... I knew they were pretty decent in sector, but OOS they survived far better than the corvettes. - I'm gonna equip all my carriers with a fleet of 'em, and they'll have MK4 combat engines which'll be a big boost. - Might do a few with those mega-range Split Boson lances? as they're like a torpedo that auto-replenishes after half a minute or so. - Who needs 3* pilots when inept ones will do the job, and those who survive will level anyhow.

I know it's hard for players to let go of something they've always had (it sure was for me,) but just try some unskilled pilots in your combat fleets. - Yes, losses will be higher, but you'll have the pleasure of knowing those who survive will gain skill through doing what they do. (And, yes, I do acknowledge the counter-argument.)

You underestimate how boned the system is. A ship can get dozens of kills without leveling up much.

[Gregorovitch]

I've just been advised that station trader's ability to fly through gates to complete deals is apparently controlled exclusively by the station managers management skill level. I.e. a zero rated station trader pilot will travel through two gates if the station manager has two stars. I had previously believed that it was dependent on the pilot's skill rating.

This makes a big difference (assuming it's true and I've heard this from two sources so far). For example, if you build a station that makes food and meds then a number of station traders will make many trips to deliver small parcels to many customers, thereby levelling up pretty quickly (relatively). It may not be that fast, BUT it is a) inexorable and b) automated.

A similar situation may apply to station miners, I don't know yet.

[j.harshaw]

station trader's ability to fly through gates to complete deals is apparently controlled exclusively by the station managers management skill level.

Small correction: the manager's management skill or the pilot's piloting skill, whichever is higher. Same for station-based mining ships' range for the purpose of determining where to mine resources.

[Gregorovitch]

station trader's ability to fly through gates to complete deals is apparently controlled exclusively by the station managers management skill level.

Small correction: the manager's management skill or the pilot's piloting skill, whichever is higher. Same for station-based mining ships' range for the purpose of determining where to mine resources.

Thanks for clarifying that.

This makes a huge difference to this debate in my view since two stars would seem easily sufficient to set up a viable station. This information supersedes my previous comments on this thread (i.e. it provides a clear scalable way forward with with staff development and station building).

[M@ReK]

station trader's ability to fly through gates to complete deals is apparently controlled exclusively by the station managers management skill level.

Small correction: the manager's management skill or the pilot's piloting skill, whichever is higher. Same for station-based mining ships' range for the purpose of determining where to mine resources.

Thanks for clarifying that.

This makes a huge difference to this debate in my view since two stars would seem easily sufficient to set up a viable station. This information supersedes my previous comments on this thread (i.e. it provides a clear scalable way forward with with staff development and station building).

Can you please explain how this method would work as I do not quite get it?