Travel Mode/Combat Solution?

[DragonEye501]

So, Travel Drive is great. Zipping around sectors, hitting the breaks at just the right time to drift/crash into the docking bay. The problem? Its a little too great. Some examples:

"Man I don't really feel like fighting today."
Mash shift+1

"But wait, it's not working because I took damage! What ever will I do!?"
Holds boost for 3 seconds then continues to mash shift+1

"Oh no a massive Xenon fleet, I'm screwed!"
Fly's THROUGH 3 K's and swarm of fighters at 4000+ m/s

This is the core of what breaks the immersion for me. I have a feeling I'm not alone in this opinion. Though, I'm not sure if egosoft see the travel drive as having some issues or working as intended.

Another issue is I can't really think of a perfect solution. Some people have suggested the idea of interdiction software but if its a thing that is triggered by the player I have little faith the AI would use it properly if at all. I feel it would have to be a radius/bubble sort of thing. Disabling travel mode when a ship enters that radius automatically while active. In a perfect world, I would like travel mode to change speeds dynamically when close to objects (ships/asteroids/stations i.e elite dangerous.) But I feel it may be out of the realm of possibility when it comes the games hard code, engine limitations ect.

Truly though, I'm just not sure. What do you guys think of the current state of travel mode? Does it need to be change/tweaked/overhauled?

[Matthew94]

I like exploiting it because it's fun but if you want to make it fair, the delay in the "travel" engines should apply to all types.

I don't want that to happen though because it's fun to abuse. Combat drive with heavy torpedoes is a funny way to destroy destroyers.

[taztaz502]

I would just fix the AI so they actually use their travel mode to intercept targets rather than chasing them at normal speed.

Would make scouts/interceptors useful rather than just spamming destroyers.

[Matthew94]

I would just fix the AI so they actually use their travel mode to intercept targets rather than chasing them at normal speed.

Would make scouts/interceptors useful rather than just spamming destroyers.

That's a good idea. Instead of trying to nerf travel mode, make it a legitimate combat option.

[DragonEye501]

Yeah exploiting can be fun but it always made me feel so... dirty. You're right though, the easiest solution would be to increase Travel Mode boot time. Heck, that could probably be modded pretty easily too. That wouldn't fix the problem of flying past enemies though. As of the moment all combat in the game is initiated by the player. Now this isn't completely game breaking because the player is still encouraged to participate in fights for stations/capships. However, I still think it would be cool if I was trading/mining and then was attacked by pirates with an actual chance of not escaping. I remember in X3 fleeing from pirates, seeing a security wing rushing to save me. It was so intense! Wish I could have that same experience here.

[Matthew94]

Yeah exploiting can be fun but it always made me feel so... dirty. You're right though, the easiest solution would be to increase Travel Mode boot time. Heck, that could probably be modded pretty easily too. That wouldn't fix the problem of flying past enemies though. As of the moment all combat in the game is initiated by the player. Now this isn't completely game breaking because the player is still encouraged to participate in fights for stations/capships. However, I still think it would be cool if I was trading/mining and then was attacked by pirates with an actual chance of not escaping. I remember in X3 fleeing from pirates, seeing a security wing rushing to save me. It was so intense! Wish I could have that same experience here.

If you want to balance flying past enemies, should the game introduce fuel stations and a fuel mechanic so people can't travel-mode everywhere?

If fuel was an issue you could be stuck in a Xenon sector and be trapped if you're out of fuel. That's kind of what Egosoft did with capital ships with jumpdrives in X: Rebirth. I can't remember the exact name but they even had refuelling stations for cap ships.

[DragonEye501]

I would just fix the AI so they actually use their travel mode to intercept targets rather than chasing them at normal speed.

Would make scouts/interceptors useful rather than just spamming destroyers.

That would be pretty sweet and could actually work. I remember playing a Full-Newtonian mod in XR. It felt like flying in travel mode only if you couldn't turn it off. The AI did a decent job though ships (especially cap ships) would overshoot there targets by a long shot. Chasing your target at insane speeds was actually pretty exciting! You would be moving so fast yet you were only inching toward your target. Then the target would turn and you would try match it with full power to boost! Man, it was cool!

[DragonEye501]

If you want to balance flying past enemies, should the game introduce fuel stations and a fuel mechanic so people can't travel-mode everywhere?

If fuel was an issue you could be stuck in a Xenon sector and be trapped if you're out of fuel. That's kind of what Egosoft did with capital ships with jumpdrives in X: Rebirth. I can't remember the exact name but they even had refuelling stations for cap ships.

Fuel was actually kinda cool in rebirth. I remember seeing those giant space truck stops. I think rebirths idea to have travel mode restricted to Cap Ships was also pretty neat. It made highways necessary for smaller craft and cap ships/carriers more viable. Traveling in deepspace in the skunk always felt lonely with the nearest stations being sometimes 30 minutes away. Was pretty immersive exploring, with your little thrusters just pushing you through the expanse. One time I was deep in Cold Star and found a single independent mining vessel to take me home. It would be an interesting experiment to see how that work in X4.

[Matthew94]

If you want to balance flying past enemies, should the game introduce fuel stations and a fuel mechanic so people can't travel-mode everywhere?

If fuel was an issue you could be stuck in a Xenon sector and be trapped if you're out of fuel. That's kind of what Egosoft did with capital ships with jumpdrives in X: Rebirth. I can't remember the exact name but they even had refuelling stations for cap ships.

Fuel was actually kinda cool in rebirth. I remember seeing those giant space truck stops. I think rebirths idea to have travel mode restricted to Cap Ships was also pretty neat. It made highways necessary for smaller craft and cap ships/carriers more viable. Traveling in deepspace in the skunk always felt lonely with the nearest stations being sometimes 30 minutes away. Was pretty immersive exploring, with your little thrusters just pushing you through the expanse. One time I was deep in Cold Star and found a single independent mining vessel to take me home. It would be an interesting experiment to see how that work in X4.

The thing is, highways for S ships is okay. The problem was the highways went in the weirdest directions.

[DragonEye501]

Highways are definitely done better in X4, but I always mod them out since travel mode is already pretty fast. Also, removing them helps make space feel a bit bigger since you can't loopty-loop around the universe in 5 minutes.

[Sandalpocalypse]

Most people I've seen with an opinion on the topic seem to agree the current situation isn't ideal. But you have to be a little careful with it. X4 isn't well suited for Ironman atm. The player does need to be able to run away because you never know when a K is going to wreck your day. Boost also has a problem in that regard when you need it the most to escape a bad situation, its not there, because it only uses shield energy. So you are discouraged from taking risks, since if a fight goes sour it is actively difficult to withdraw.


Freelancer had interdiction missiles (that AIs magically carried without launchers, but w/e) that traveled incredibly fast and would knock you out of travel mode.

Note that the upcoming Mass Drivers in 3.0 will function quite well as interdiction weapons because they are hitscan.


Perhaps:

L/XL ships can mount interdiction generators in a shield slot. These would be able to knock hostile ships out of travel drive within a radius (5-10km?), but you would pay a commensurate cost in shield strength. They would also be unshielded and easily disabled. They would be controllable with an on/off hotkey similar to the turret arming hotkey. They would be commonly mounted by patrol destroyers and by pirate destroyers, but military vessels would generally scorn them in favor of more shields. Alternatively, instead of a radial interdiction effect, it could add an additional mode that functions similar to Long Range Scan, except instead of a scanning pulse it fires an interdiction pulse that shorts out travel drives.

I am unconvinced as to the best method for S/M ships. Every single pirate having a tracking missile launcher might get old. Perhaps a mode function as above, or perhaps a shield slot replacer that converts your countermeasures launcher into an interdiction launcher. Then you can use the countermeasures key to launch an interdictor missile. You could also make interdictor missiles a craftable semi-legal ware, requiring a police license to be legal in a territory.

[LameFox]

I think its weaknesses are probably fine as-is, only the AI needs to catch up in order to make any use of them. It shouldn't be too much to ask that ships with travel drive can follow a ship with travel drive, especially since it's combat travel drive that probably isn't as quick as theirs, or that something which doesn't work under fire is now and then subjected to fire. They're not good at the things they should be doing and so the obvious counters go unused.

Personally my gripe is rather with the fact that ships cannot be interdicted out of highways, which seems to kill potential fleet battles as they all zip off and exit in separate places to die alone. For that I can't even fully blame the AI, as these things don't seem to have been invented with counter-play in mind. For now I just have to play without them altogether (which doesn't really feel like a loss, and makes me wonder why they exist).

[Imperial Good]

Only works for S and M ships with combat engines. L and XL travel mode takes a good part of a minute to engage and non travel S/M engines take a few seconds.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

Whilst the current Travel Drive system allows the player to bypass obstacles (e.g. Xenon fleets), I don't think it impacts the faction-faction conflict. Partly because, like Imperial Good mentions, capital ships can't get past a blockage, and smaller NPC-piloted ships will typically fight if they find one.

I would just fix the AI so they actually use their travel mode to intercept targets rather than chasing them at normal speed.

Would make scouts/interceptors useful rather than just spamming destroyers.

There have been some improvements to NPCs chasing ships using Travel Mode. However, I don't know if we are at the point where they can chase the ship and shoot them while the player is in-sector yet, or whether they are just follow better by redefining the position they want fly towards.

[DragonEye501]

I guess I do only primarily fly S ships so I suppose that's why I'm getting away so easily. Its good to hear that larger ships have a harder time getting away. Also nice to know that AI chasing targets is slowly improving. Perhaps when I put in some more hours I'll actually blow up a couple of times.

[warchild421]

I do not like the highway system and have really have enjoyed the game once i turned them off. It makes the game feel larger and not like I'm zooming about a race track.

I was bummed when I learned that ships do not have fuel in this game. Ships should have some type of fuel needs, possible different per each race would be nice. Travel Drive then would be a higher rate of fuel usage over standard mode. The higher tier engines and different races could then have different rates/percentage of fuel use, not just overall speed. A ship that runs out of fuel will always be able to move just at a reduced rate over normal operations. That way the player would not be permanently stuck out in the middle of no-where if they run out of fuel. Instead of using shields for a boost, they could have it at a greater fuel consumption.

What this would do is create a resource that the player would need to worry about, produce, and trade. Helping to bring tension into the game. Want to hurt the enemies fighting potential, take out their front line fuel production. It will help up the tension in combat if boosting uses 500% normal fuel rates, making choice more important. Go with the high speed PAR engines with the high burn rates, or the slower speed with better fuel economy?

Egosoft could also add in a new ship as a fuel tender, allowing for a more diverse fleet.

[multox]

Interdictors that block travel drive within a certain range. Larger interdictors, larger range.

[LameFox]

Fuel makes sense in principle (would help make a bit more use of things like carriers too) but I don't think I'd trust the AI to use it. Probably cripple the economy as they all slow to a crawl.

[warchild421]

Fuel makes sense in principle (would help make a bit more use of things like carriers too) but I don't think I'd trust the AI to use it. Probably cripple the economy as they all slow to a crawl.

The AI would definitely have to be improved to take into account fuel. Having ships try to auto fuel up when at 25% as long as not currently engaged or similar type of trigger. That would all depend on fuel burn rates. The burn rates would have to be worked on, as to be something you have to watch but also not something that's would be very annoying. Carriers and Aux being able to fuel and have fuel reserves would expand their usability.

Different classes of ships then could have different fuel economies, with different Boost and Travel Drive use amounts. Civilian ships can have high fuel economy, with low Travel Drive usage. Were as Combat ships would have low fuel economy with high Travel Drive, low Boost usage amounts. This will further differentiate the type and roll of ships.

Some AI station designs would need fuel refineries added, shipyards and defensive stations, as well as having fuel refinery stations added in. Then make it so that after defensive stations are placed in a new sector the next station to be built will be a fuel refinery.

Fuel would be a new low tier resource with a built in credit sink that players could use to start getting cash.

All in all I think the possible positives out weigh the possible cons of adding fuel to the game. It would go towards fixing the "Always Boost then TD" issue, along with tying travel drive to a expendable resource.

[Tomonor]

I have suggested fuel before (and the rework of the highway system), I was shot down mercilessly by some hardcore buttocks.

I personally would love to see fuel implemented as a means of resource, necessary economic variable, and sign of wealth. It could also give more meaning for the 'tanker' cargo type ship models.


Otherwise I don't mind highways, other than their indestructability/unbuildability. If I was at war with a faction, I would certainly disable the part that leads into the enemy jumpgate. Also, if I had an empire thing going on, I would love to add highways my own to accelerate my economy.