I see lots of fixes except for the most stupid and annoying issue.

[taztaz502]

i must be the only person that can't see a difference between pilot skills other than having extra options like autotrading, my ships seem to perform the same regardless...

Well, I did spend quite a lot of time watching newly built ANT & ARG warships fly out of my Antigone Memorial shipyard directly into battle with HOP invaders. At times HOP were literally waiting for them right outside the construction bays, ready to start shooting the instant construction completed.

At the time the sheer magnitude of that HOP fleet terrified me, so remained neutral & focused on Trade. Did my best to assist ANT & ARG without getting involved in the fighting personally. Had a LOT of time to watch NPC ships fighting on external views whenever I was in the sector, while my freighter was plodding around between stations (was also a lot more interesting to watch than what was going on directly in front of my ship, so let my relief pilot do the flying). Had sufficient rep with both ANT & ARG that I could get full info on their ships, including crew skills.

After a while found I could predict (with a fair degree of accuracy) approximate skill level of capital ship pilots, purely from observations of how closely they approached the enemy, the sort of manoeuvres they performed & how many main gun shots they could fire in a sustained burst (i.e. before having to manoeuvre round to reacquire the target). Differences are clear when you know what to look for & have a big enough sample size.

I usually just stand on my own ships ordering my fleet to do specific things i've not noticed any difference as far as pilots skill is concerned they all seem to fly very similar and it's poor.

It's weird because xenon and enemy ships seem to perform much better than my own?

[spankahontis]

Why does no one talk about this?

It is discussed. Here's a recent thread about capital ship movement scripts from the beta forum:
http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php? ... 82289215ee
By the way, highly skilled crews (pilots in particular) are absolutely vital for getting the best out of capital ships.

And/Or give us a reliable way of hiring high-skilled crew.

Get most of my warship service crews from station builders - they seem to be particularly good at levelling up engineers.

Usually get my capital ship pilots by building a bunch of fighters each time I get a new destroyer. Like to assign 8 of them as an interception wing for each destroyer & almost every time there's at least one pilot with a minimum of 4* piloting. That's generally the lowest I consider acceptable for command of a destroyer, though will sometimes consider training up a 3* pilot with seminars if they have good morale (also has a significant impact on ship performance in combat).

Honestly ES just needs to get rid of the crew skill mechanic in X4 as it is far to convoluted and adopt the mechanic from XR where you just shop around different areas for skilled captains, engineers and defense officers, hire them then assign them to ships. Why does it need to be this silly go figure out a method of getting a skilled crew X4 utilizes FFS.

Ooo No, I am probably one of the only few people that loved Rebirth right from the start, but personally.. Small talking around for the best Pilots was fun when you have only a few big ships.
But when you're in the later stages of your empire and you have a massive fleet? Running around for 5 star engineers, D.Officers and Captains was time consuming and boring as hell.
I thought Rebirth overall was a great game, otherwise I wouldn't of clocked over 2000 hours. But there are some features in Rebirth that need to go the way of the Dodo.

Are you saying that the skill level of these pilots are that low even at MAX???? coz if so then yes that for sure needs tweaking up. However mostly all my pilots are always 3-4 stars to start with anything less I fire, I buy bulk scout ships to pick out decent pilots so I am sorry but I am doubting the star issue and if it is a star issue then the base value of stupid needs to be increased to "intelligence of a gnat level". Yeah the code may be there, but is that code working? That is the question.

I dont get it :/ and Iv not even got to the part where they can sometimes fire torpedoes and missiles while turning away from the target -.- or 2km away while they can chillax 4km+ away.

Or at the least, they need to come with a free toaster.

[LameFox]

I get the feeling the AI does not cope very well with the move to fighter-like capital ships. Not that it copes well with anything, but in X3 for example it didn't need to be very bright because its firepower on less manoeuvrable ships was fairly omnidirectional. It just had to get in range, and point in vaguely the right direction as it flew very slowly around the enemy. Even still, sometimes I would see a capital ship stupidly turn to face its anti-fighter turrets toward an enemy capital, but usually the side-mounted heavy guns could still reach. Now the destroyers fly like very heavy and lethargic fighters and the AI doesn't understand how to make something like that use its weapons effectively. Or its boost for that matter.

Similar to the way it struggles with stations. Prior to Rebirth the AI avoidance was still bad, but the stations were smaller less modular so it didn't ram them as often. Now we have a game where collision is so frequent it had to stop dealing damage.

Seems like the ambitions of the game are not well adapted to the ability of its AI anymore.

[Warnoise]

In Beta 6 i have a bunch of M and S subbordinate ships escorting my L ship. They just stand there at 0 speed doing nothing (especially the Ares) even when my ship or even they get attacked.


I have no hope regarding AI improvement...

[Ragemaster9999]

In Beta 6 i have a bunch of M and S subbordinate ships escorting my L ship. They just stand there at 0 speed doing nothing (especially the Ares) even when my ship or even they get attacked.


I have no hope regarding AI improvement...

Subordinate ships are beyond braindead in beta 6. Having all sorts of problems with them. They bug out constantly I recommend not using subordinates

[GCU Grey Area]

In Beta 6 i have a bunch of M and S subbordinate ships escorting my L ship. They just stand there at 0 speed doing nothing (especially the Ares) even when my ship or even they get attacked.


I have no hope regarding AI improvement...

Subordinate ships are beyond braindead in beta 6. Having all sorts of problems with them. They bug out constantly I recommend not using subordinates

Finding in 3.0 a lot depends on which specific roles are used.

Still not a fan of 'defence' role - in particular fighters using it still tend to wander a bit too much. Was my main reason for avoiding all combat use of subordinates prior to 3.0 (essentially all war fleets in previous games were under manual control) & don't think much has changed with it. I still only use 'defence' where there are no other options available, e.g. warships assigned to protect stations while I'm waiting for their defence modules to finish construction.

However, have come to quite like the new 'interception' & 'attack' roles. Find those roles sufficiently useful that for the first time in X4 I'm frequently using subordinates in combat & not being continuously annoyed by them. At present basic tactical groups of my fleet consist of 5 destroyers (Behemoths) + 40 fighters (Eclipse Vans). Command structure is 4 destroyers assigned to 'attack' group leader's target, while each destroyer has 8 fighters assigned the 'interception' role. Seems to be working OK so far.

[Warnoise]

In Beta 6 i have a bunch of M and S subbordinate ships escorting my L ship. They just stand there at 0 speed doing nothing (especially the Ares) even when my ship or even they get attacked.


I have no hope regarding AI improvement...

Subordinate ships are beyond braindead in beta 6. Having all sorts of problems with them. They bug out constantly I recommend not using subordinates

Finding in 3.0 a lot depends on which specific roles are used.

Still not a fan of 'defence' role - in particular fighters using it still tend to wander a bit too much. Was my main reason for avoiding all combat use of subordinates prior to 3.0 (essentially all war fleets in previous games were under manual control) & don't think much has changed with it. I still only use 'defence' where there are no other options available, e.g. warships assigned to protect stations while I'm waiting for their defence modules to finish construction.

However, have come to quite like the new 'interception' & 'attack' roles. Find those roles sufficiently useful that for the first time in X4 I'm frequently using subordinates in combat & not being continuously annoyed by them. At present basic tactical groups of my fleet consist of 5 destroyers (Behemoths) + 40 fighters (Eclipse Vans). Command structure is 4 destroyers assigned to 'attack' group leader's target, while each destroyer has 8 fighters assigned the 'interception' role. Seems to be working OK so far.

There is literally nothing to like in the current AI. I just came from a game session where i tested plenty of combat/escort behavior using beta 6 and my god it is absolutely abysmal. Here are the things that i noticed:

-Escort ships(regardless of roles) will stop and do nothing at random times (especially after executing an order or something) it happends very frequently.
-Ships don't respond to being under attack when they are flying towards an enemy (they just get killed)
-M ships tend to do this stupid spiral thing whenever they take a certain amount of hull dmg. They basically turn in their place taking damage and die. looks very stupid
-Ships still cant hold formation in patrol. I have like 8 patrols, everytime they end up scattered all over the sector then try to catch up to each other but due to lag in their positioning calculation, they just go to the place where the leader was...it looks like straight out of a cartoon.
-When attacking a station, S and M ships tend to do this stupid dive without even opening fire. They just bump into station, then fly away, then start firing from the second dive.
-Target priority is illogical. My capital ship instead of prioritizing enemy capital ship, no, it decided to chase a god damn xenon N. It got literally melted in like 5 seconds by a xenon K.
-Medium ships tend to do this death dive towards enemy capital ship targets (a behavior which i have been calling out since release) just to get melted without doing anything.
-L ships just dancing around when fighting enemy capital ships (a xenon K literally melted 3 Phoenixes and still have 75% shield)

And plenty of other small details...

Seriously, even though I played with a testing mindset, it was boring and frustrating to watch. I submitted many bugs and saves, yet i see nothing changed.

It seems people don't IS fighting that often, this is why i don't see many AI related claims.

[GCU Grey Area]

It seems people don't IS fighting that often, this is why i don't see many AI related claims.

ALL of my battles are fought IS, simply don't derive any enjoyment from watching green blips on a map 'fighting' other, different colour, blips (even if they do have more than 1 colour these days). Need to be involved personally & watch the fireworks.

Currently in the middle of a battle for control of True Sight. Got 3 destroyer groups (organised as above) locking down the centre of the map with overlapping Protect Position orders (40km radius in each case), along with the support group (Nomad + Colossus for resupply, repair & transport of spare fighters). Meanwhile I'm travelling around with the demolition fleet smashing HOP stations. Demo fleet is slightly different to the rest: 7 Behemoths with modified weapons, Annihilator mods on the main guns & Expediter on Plasma L turrets (to bring range up to approx the same as main guns). Those mods aren't essential, but they do speed the process up a fair bit. Only 4 interceptors each, more than that was getting in the way & 28 (plus the 8 I have on my personal Behemoth) has so far proved sufficient to deal with station defence drones, at least in the numbers I've been encountering.

Has been going reasonably well. Have had a few HOP counterattacks out of Holy Vision over the past few hours, but nothing my forces couldn't handle. Lost 1 of the standard Behemoths & maybe a couple of dozen fighters so far, but HOP have lost far, far more than that. If I was to criticise the AI for anything it would be on a fleet organisation level - they seem to be sending forces in piecemeal (possibly as soon as they are built), rather than waiting until they've gathered a sufficient fleet to be a credible threat. Saw much the same thing with ARG & ANT forces during the HOP invasion of their sectors at the start of my current game.

Edit: spot the difference:
Before: https://www.dropbox.com/s/v630jph4w4yld ... 1.jpg?dl=0
After: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tn6d4dzi79r1h ... 1.jpg?dl=0
All of that was done with in-sector AI controlled fleets, using Attack & Interception subordinate roles as appropriate. Only intervention on my part was to tell the leader of the demolition fleet which station to smash next & to move the Protect Position orders of remaining assets 3 times (near north gate -> centre of sector -> near south gate).

[taztaz502]

Ai is pretty dumb though you could easily clear most sectors with about 3 behemoths with shield mods unless they've got some OP defence stations, in which case just pilot one of the behemoths and shoot out the turrets at range and even missiles won't have the range to hit you if you're using the behemoths main weapons, then send in the other 2 behemoths to kill the station while you clear the rest/take care of any enemies enroute to your position.

Behemoth is actually really awesome to fly yourself because its main battery has such long range the majority of things won't even get into firing range to hit you, would be nice if the AI could fire at range rather than as the OP says flying upto the station and giving it a quick lick whilst manoeuvring firing 2-3 times then manoeuvring again while the stations shields just recharge any damage done and missiles hammer your AI behemoth.

The AI will improve vastly without a doubt in time, might even end up with a full overhaul.

[GCU Grey Area]

Ai is pretty dumb though you could easily clear most sectors with about 3 behemoths...

Did try a similar approach initially. Got swarmed as soon as I emerged from the gate. HOP fighters took out my engines, then their destroyers turned up. Ended up having to retreat back through the gate in a fighter, lost the Behemoth (pity, had some good mods on it). Decided a bigger fleet might help - it did.

Behemoth is actually really awesome to fly yourself because its main battery has such long range the majority of things won't even get into firing range to hit you, would be nice if the AI could fire at range rather than as the OP says flying upto the station and giving it a quick lick whilst manoeuvring firing 2-3 times then manoeuvring again while the stations shields just recharge any damage done and missiles hammer your AI behemoth.

Not in my experience. This is fairly typical of my Demolition Fleet in action:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v01ehsklet07z ... 1.jpg?dl=0
Destroyers park at around 9km from the station & bombard it with main guns & L Plasma turrets (equipped with Expediter mods).
Interceptors fight it out with station defence drones in the middle.
Station doesn't get to do anything much - occasional potshots at fighters, but that's about it - all my important ships are well out of range.

The AI will improve vastly without a doubt in time, might even end up with a full overhaul.

Already quite like it (definitely prefer it to previous X games), but improvements are always welcome.

[taztaz502]

Ai is pretty dumb though you could easily clear most sectors with about 3 behemoths...

Did try a similar approach initially. Got swarmed as soon as I emerged from the gate. HOP fighters took out my engines, then their destroyers turned up. Ended up having to retreat back through the gate in a fighter, lost the Behemoth (pity, had some good mods on it). Decided a bigger fleet might help - it did.

Behemoth is actually really awesome to fly yourself because its main battery has such long range the majority of things won't even get into firing range to hit you, would be nice if the AI could fire at range rather than as the OP says flying upto the station and giving it a quick lick whilst manoeuvring firing 2-3 times then manoeuvring again while the stations shields just recharge any damage done and missiles hammer your AI behemoth.

Not in my experience. This is fairly typical of my Demolition Fleet in action:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v01ehsklet07z ... 1.jpg?dl=0
Destroyers park at around 9km from the station & bombard it with main guns & L Plasma turrets (equipped with Expediter mods).
Interceptors fight it out with station defence drones in the middle.
Station doesn't get to do anything much - occasional potshots at fighters, but that's about it - all my important ships are well out of range.

The AI will improve vastly without a doubt in time, might even end up with a full overhaul.

Already quite like it (definitely prefer it to previous X games), but improvements are always welcome.

How exactly do you get your destroyers to park like that and attack with its main weapons while remaining stationary?

Any attack order i give they'll instantly fly into the station and start goofing around like absolute melons, and my fighters will just fly upto stations and drop like flies usually taken out by missiles rather than turrets/fighters.

X3:AP litcubes universe the ai performed 10x better than in X4 with far more customisation and utility options.

Either way the AI isn't performing any where near to the standard i would expect in any of my save games.

[GCU Grey Area]

How exactly do you get your destroyers to park like that and attack with its main weapons while remaining stationary?

That's simply the difference that high quality captains make, all of my destroyer captains have 4* Piloting or better. They still move around a bit, but it's almost all vertical & lateral movement, very little movement either towards or away from the station. As I understand it, Morale is a significant factor here - low Morale captains tend to be a bit more twitchy & move around more in the firing line (whereas Piloting determines how close they are permitted to approach, low Piloting = closer approach). Giving the destroyers a few interceptors also seems to help - if you can keep hostile fighters & drones away from them there's considerably less movement by the destroyers (i.e. they don't get distracted & can focus on their primary task).

[taztaz502]

How exactly do you get your destroyers to park like that and attack with its main weapons while remaining stationary?

That's simply the difference that high quality captains make, all of my destroyer captains have 4* Piloting or better. They still move around a bit, but it's almost all vertical & lateral movement, very little movement either towards or away from the station. As I understand it, Morale is a significant factor here - low Morale captains tend to be a bit more twitchy & move around more in the firing line (whereas Piloting determines how close they are permitted to approach, low Piloting = closer approach). Giving the destroyers a few interceptors also seems to help - if you can keep hostile fighters & drones away from them there's considerably less movement by the destroyers (i.e. they don't get distracted & can focus on their primary task).

Are you using mods? because like i stated all of my capital ships captains have 5* and don't perform anything like that they will literally do as the OP said and lick the paint before trying anything.

[GCU Grey Area]

Are you using mods? because like i stated all of my capital ships captains have 5* and don't perform anything like that they will literally do as the OP said and lick the paint before trying anything.

No mods at all - completely vanilla game. Curious how you managed to get 5* captains for your entire fleet. Don't have anywhere near that in my game. While some of my captains are close, only one of them has the full 5* for both piloting & morale (relief pilot on my personal Behemoth).

[taztaz502]

Are you using mods? because like i stated all of my capital ships captains have 5* and don't perform anything like that they will literally do as the OP said and lick the paint before trying anything.

No mods at all - completely vanilla game. Curious how you managed to get 5* captains for your entire fleet. Don't have anywhere near that in my game. While some of my captains are close, only one of them has the full 5* for both piloting & morale (relief pilot on my personal Behemoth).

It's ridiculously easy to get 5* pilots, before you build any ship switch them to "Highest preset" then change them to whatever you want the majority of pilots will start at 3* then you just use 2 pilot seminars to get 4* and have them fly around performing various tasks and you'll have an abundance of trained pilots.

Even a few of my fighters/frigates have 5* captains although i only have 4 behemoths atm.

https://i.imgur.com/PriU4OL.jpg

[taztaz502]

just checked even most of my traders are 4* pilot/morale.

[Buzz2005]

Are you using mods? because like i stated all of my capital ships captains have 5* and don't perform anything like that they will literally do as the OP said and lick the paint before trying anything.

No mods at all - completely vanilla game. Curious how you managed to get 5* captains for your entire fleet. Don't have anywhere near that in my game. While some of my captains are close, only one of them has the full 5* for both piloting & morale (relief pilot on my personal Behemoth).

It's ridiculously easy to get 5* pilots, before you build any ship switch them to "Highest preset" then change them to whatever you want the majority of pilots will start at 3* then you just use 2 pilot seminars to get 4* and have them fly around performing various tasks and you'll have an abundance of trained pilots.

Even a few of my fighters/frigates have 5* captains although i only have 4 behemoths atm.

https://i.imgur.com/PriU4OL.jpg

this is not true, the preset does not mater, pilots skill is random and of course all you traders are 3,4 stars as they need 3 start minimum to be able to autotrade

[taztaz502]

No mods at all - completely vanilla game. Curious how you managed to get 5* captains for your entire fleet. Don't have anywhere near that in my game. While some of my captains are close, only one of them has the full 5* for both piloting & morale (relief pilot on my personal Behemoth).

It's ridiculously easy to get 5* pilots, before you build any ship switch them to "Highest preset" then change them to whatever you want the majority of pilots will start at 3* then you just use 2 pilot seminars to get 4* and have them fly around performing various tasks and you'll have an abundance of trained pilots.

Even a few of my fighters/frigates have 5* captains although i only have 4 behemoths atm.

https://i.imgur.com/PriU4OL.jpg

this is not true, the preset does not mater, pilots skill is random and of course all you traders are 3,4 stars as they need 3 start minimum to be able to autotrade

Have you even tried it, because before i tried it i would rarely start with 3 star pilots, now the majority are 3 star and can start auto-trading right out of the shipyard.

and yeah cheers captain obvious what has auto trade got to do with pilots spawning at higher stars?

[Buzz2005]

I buy cheapest Elite ships, nothing to do with high preset and still sometimes get 4,5 three stars capitan in a row

and when I buy miners if its 3 or above I swap them out

[taztaz502]

I buy cheapest Elite ships, nothing to do with high preset and still sometimes get 4,5 three stars capitan in a row

and when I buy miners if its 3 or above I swap them out

I've never had to swap pilots since i started doing this, either i'm stupidly lucky which i'm not or it works.