Trump

[Observe]

There is no lab test that will reveal whether or not someone is a terrorist, so the designation is a fiction that depends on affiliation with, or opposition to some group or other.

Anyway, we take out a guy who in our books is a terrorist; allegedly because he was planning something somewhere that we don't know exactly. Good for us that by killing this one guy, we possibly prevented who knows how many future deaths. No matter, that the general will be as easily replaced as toasting a slice of bread.

War conditions being what they are, the Iranians accidentally shot down an airliner with 176 people on board.

One replaceable terrorist = 176 non-replaceable innocent civilians. Such is the insanity in the math of war and why it should be avoided if at all possible.

[Vertigo 7]

That's the crux of the matter. Trump provoked Iran for no good reason, whether intentionally or not innocents died, nothing has changed to provide security and peace.

I feel like the certain professor that likes to chime in from time to time just wants to advocate for apathy. I really don't even understand why he feels anyone should pay attention since he's voiced his disdain for American society yet is happy to take tax payer money to help fund his way of life over here. Boggles the mind a bit.

Anyway, I'm not going to be apathetic about any of this. No matter how great and mighty the US is, we do not need to be making decisions about who lives and dies for other nations. Aggressively using our military to impose our will on the world makes us no better than the terrorists we've been fighting against. And using the military for political reasons is just wrong is so many ways, no matter the results.

We all know Iran isn't our friend and doubtful they ever will be. That isn't justification to attack them. Yeah, they're agitating others in the middle east. They're not alone in that. It's not as if Israel is a nation of saints or Turkey or Saudi Arabia, for that matter. That whole region has been one gigantic cluster **** since the dawn of time and the last thing needed was a bumbling idiot making unilateral decisions to assassinate military leaders and threaten civilians.

We have a diplomatic corps for a reason. There is nothing to be lost by bringing these nations to the table to attempt hash out their differences.

[fiksal]

One replaceable terrorist = 176 non-replaceable innocent civilians. Such is the insanity in the math of war and why it should be avoided if at all possible.

The sad truth.

I am thinking of people who pulled the trigger on the system. Accidental or not, they should do whatever life sentence x 180 people is in Iran.

I think Iran doesn't imprison people for life and instead just kills them.

That works for me.

[Bishop149]

Salamiman was a terrorist. I am not hearing that get spoken enough.

I'd challenge you to make a single accusation against Salamiman that could not also be levelled at the U.S. government.
As you yourself say, over the last 3 administrations the foreign policy of US has just become increasing aggressive, continually escalating their disregard for any of the "rules" and becoming increasingly blazon in that disregard. Behaviour which has now culminated in the direct assassination of senior foreign government official of a significant regional power.
I dread to think what the next step will be.

The point of this story is that I was not in great life threatening danger from Afghan IEDs. What I was cautioned about was shaped charge warheads that could penetrate our armor. They were called EFPs. The technology goes back to World War II and uses explosives to form a jet of molten copper that can pierce armor to injure and kill the crew behind that armor. Afghans were not sophisticated enough to make weapons that could do that on their own. That threat came from Iran. From terrorists like Salamiman. I'm glad that scumbag is dead. He didn't hurt me but it wasn't for lack of trying. Screw him. I did see that they carted that scumbags remains through Iran on the hood of a Chevy truck. Should not have happened. Iran does not deserve good trucks and I say that as a Ford man.

So your argument is, the Iranian government is "terrorist" because it supplied weapons to another country who used them in a war against American soldiers (one of whom happened to be yourself).
You really might want to look at who your government sells weapons too and who they are used against.

"Terrorist" is largely a matter of perspective. . . ones persons etc.
Salamiman is a "terrorist" to you.
Trump, Obama and Bush (and you for that matter, in your role as an invading foreign soldier) are also "terrorists" to millions around the world.
For near identical reasons.
The same might be said about terms such as "Hero" or "Peacekeeper" BTW.

[fiksal]

So is Iran a 'terrorist' 'state' now?

Where's the declaration of war?

[RegisterMe]

So, ermm, these "imminent" threats to four embassies, that Trump came out with last week? Why is nobody else in the administration willing or able to back that statement up?

[Vertigo 7]

So, ermm, these "imminent" threats to four embassies, that Trump came out with last week? Why is nobody else in the administration willing or able to back that statement up?

Its a repeat of hurricane sharpie except with drone strikes.

[RegisterMe]

Christ, if this stuff coming out from Parnas about Robert Hyde, Lev (Parnas) and Igor, and Ambassador Abramaovich is even approaching true things could get..... interesting.

[Vertigo 7]

Christ, if this stuff coming out from Parnas about Robert Hyde, Lev (Parnas) and Igor, and Ambassador Abramaovich is even approaching true things could get..... interesting.

linkies? I've seen the text messages and the recently released letter from Rudy Colludy requesting a meeting with Zelensky with Trumpiepoo's permission.

https://www.msnbc.com/the-beat-with-ari ... 6753477731 Rudy Colludy letter
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... ar-BBYXzAN texts

[RegisterMe]

linkies?

Maddow on the subject (I know Maddow isn't everybody's cup of tea but focus on the detail rather than the presenter).

Oh, and I meant Ambassador Yovanovitch - my bad.

EDIT: And don't forget that comment from Trump on the Ukraine call transcript along the lines of ".. and she's going to go through some things".

[Chips]

Feel people just want to read into this too much. I wouldn't say incident like this is rare or unheard off. Technology is only as good as its operator, it's not a fool proof. Saying "it can't be wrong because it's radar!" is just naive assumption:

- Did we forget a similar thing happen not too long ago when Ukrainian rebels shot down a civilian ariliner using a Russian made SAM?
- Part of the reason the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor worked back then because the radar operators mistook the swarm of Japanese fighters.

My guess on this Iran's force was probably put on high alert after their cruise missile attack expecting American retaliation. The missile was probably fired by an edgy operator thinking it's a response attack.

Aircraft are fitted with identifications systems which are transmitting what they are, where they are, speed, etc. A bit like ship bourne AIS. Can it be turned off? Military craft generally don't even have it, or won't respond to challenges they don't recognise so they're not easily identified.

But the one thing a civilian airliner is going to be is easily identifiable! Such identification systems didn't exist at the time of Pearl Harbour.

[pjknibbs]

But the one thing a civilian airliner is going to be is easily identifiable! Such identification systems didn't exist at the time of Pearl Harbour.

It would also be fairly trivial for an enemy to fake those IFF systems and pretend that their incoming alpha strike was just an airliner, though. The fact is, though, there are any number of systems that could have been used to check the identity of the aircraft before the missile was fired--heck, with the entire anti-aircraft system in high alert, you'd think the first thing they'd do would be to send up-to-date information about flights in and out of the airport to the military to make sure mistakes didn't happen, or, better still, just close the airspace and prevent airliners leaving or coming in, like the US did after 9/11. The fact they did none of these things is why nearly 200 people are dead who shouldn't have been.

[Axeface]

Aircraft are fitted with identifications systems which are transmitting what they are, where they are, speed, etc. A bit like ship bourne AIS. Can it be turned off? Military craft generally don't even have it, or won't respond to challenges they don't recognise so they're not easily identified.

But the one thing a civilian airliner is going to be is easily identifiable! Such identification systems didn't exist at the time of Pearl Harbour.

It can be turned off yes and its called a squawk, at least in small aircraft such as the ones i've flown (I ran out of cash shortly before going solo, almost got my licence). Im not sure about large airliners, theres probably protocols in place to not allow pilots to turn them off? If you turn it off you are just a blip on the screen if the atc has radar, i think some dont, without squawks I think it would be immensely hard for any particular atc station to identify anyone. Its all actually pretty low-tech, as far as I know anyway.

[Alan Phipps]

Commercial airline IFF systems are indeed pretty simple and foolproof in peacetime use. They tend not to be *easily* or erroneously disabled while in the air and not without it appearing in the flight recorder (black box) record. There are a couple of issues with them while flying in a (potential) zone of air conflict.

1. Multiple or continuous interrogations from say multiple sources can overload the aircraft transponder and it starts to fail to respond properly for every individual interrogation.
2. The IFF response signal is only really effective if it works, is actively triggered and looked for, is interpreted properly, and (perhaps more importantly) is believed.

[RegisterMe]

https://intelligence.house.gov/uploaded ... chment.pdf

Too early to draw hard conclusions but.... take a look for yourselves.

[Vertigo 7]

linkies?

Maddow on the subject (I know Maddow isn't everybody's cup of tea but focus on the detail rather than the presenter).

Oh, and I meant Ambassador Yovanovitch - my bad.

EDIT: And don't forget that comment from Trump on the Ukraine call transcript along the lines of ".. and she's going to go through some things".

Jeebus... that Hyde dude, what a creepy lil shit... It almost sounds like he was trying to get her killed.

https://intelligence.house.gov/uploaded ... chment.pdf

Too early to draw hard conclusions but.... take a look for yourselves.

Well, it's just even more evidence that Trump has gone out of his way to abuse his office. The conclusion has already been drawn. It's more of a question of will Moscow Mitch and the other sycophants sack up and do whats right.

[Observe]

Democrats can reel off hundreds of pages of testimonies, documents pointing to crimes, and even facts and common sense. The Republican rebuttal, is that Trump hasn't done anything wrong and even if he did, it isn't an impeachable offense. Republicans will "win", because they hold the Senate.

Trump will be reelected because his opponents are hell-bent on liberalizing America. Most Democrats and independents do not see much past slightly left of center. That's why Biden will probably get the Democratic nomination, but he will be unable to muster any significant challenge to Trump.

[fiksal]

Democrats can reel off hundreds of pages of testimonies, documents pointing to crimes, and even facts and common sense. The Republican rebuttal, is that Trump hasn't done anything wrong and even if he did, it isn't an impeachable offense. Republicans will "win", because they hold the Senate.

Trump will be reelected because his opponents are hell-bent on liberalizing America. Most Democrats and independents do not see much past slightly left of center. That's why Biden will probably get the Democratic nomination, but he will be unable to muster any significant challenge to Trump.

oh well, 4 more years of fascism then?

[Observe]

Democrats can reel off hundreds of pages of testimonies, documents pointing to crimes, and even facts and common sense. The Republican rebuttal, is that Trump hasn't done anything wrong and even if he did, it isn't an impeachable offense. Republicans will "win", because they hold the Senate.

Trump will be reelected because his opponents are hell-bent on liberalizing America. Most Democrats and independents do not see much past slightly left of center. That's why Biden will probably get the Democratic nomination, but he will be unable to muster any significant challenge to Trump.

oh well, 4 more years of fascism then?

Afraid so. I wish there were cause for hope otherwise, but I just don't see it. Of course there is always the possibility of something unforeseen, but that's not much to put your money on.

[Vertigo 7]

I really don't think so. Even if the Senate doesn't toss him out on his fat orange ass, he's pissed off democrats, independents, and the remaining real republicans. He's not going to be reelected.