Trump

[felter]

When I first heard the news about the plane crash, I went damn the Iranians have accidentality shot down one of their own aircraft or that the Americans have shot down a civilian aircraft in Iran, in retaliation. That's how screwed up things are, I actually genuinely thought that the Americans are now capable of shooting down civilian aircraft. Then I heard that it was being reported in the news that Iran had shot the plane down, which was my first thought but as I carried on reading, it became clear that that information was coming from the American government, and I was like well that information has to come from another source as you cannot believe a word that the Americans say. Remember I even thought that they had intentionally brought down that passenger plane themselves and I am still not 100% convinced that they didn't do it.

Reputation is everything.

[Alan Phipps]

I think that believing a democratic nation such as the USA *intentionally* brought down a civilian airliner that could well contain some of its own people as well as those of allied and neutral nations (which in the latter cases it did) is taking healthy scepticism and credibility of intent far too far.

Let's wait for evidence as to whether this was a sad accident/technical fault, a military mistake or maybe even 3rd party political terrorism intended to escalate the situation.

[pjknibbs]

I think that believing a democratic nation such as the USA *intentionally* brought down a civilian airliner that could well contain some of its own people as well as those of allied and neutral nations (which in the latter cases it did) is taking healthy scepticism and credibility of intent far too far.

Well, I don't think anyone is actually accusing Iran of having deliberately brought down the plane, although they generally think they might have *accidentally* shot it down. As far as accidental downing of planes is concerned, the US does have prior form in that regard:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

My own opinion is that this was totally Iran accidentally shooting down the plane, but they're never likely to admit that!

[Vertigo 7]

I'm not so ready to buy an accidental missile launch story. It's possible but there's so many things that would have to go wrong for an AA missile to hit a target unintentionally, especially if it uses active guidance and/or Iran uses any kind of IFF. I'll need to see what the investigations turn up, however.

[pjknibbs]

I'm not so ready to buy an accidental missile launch story. It's possible but there's so many things that would have to go wrong for an AA missile to hit a target unintentionally, especially if it uses active guidance and/or Iran uses any kind of IFF. I'll need to see what the investigations turn up, however.

So you're saying the American shooting down of the Iranian plane back in 1988 was entirely deliberate, then?

[Vertigo 7]

I'm not so ready to buy an accidental missile launch story. It's possible but there's so many things that would have to go wrong for an AA missile to hit a target unintentionally, especially if it uses active guidance and/or Iran uses any kind of IFF. I'll need to see what the investigations turn up, however.

So you're saying the American shooting down of the Iranian plane back in 1988 was entirely deliberate, then?

Well, at present, the 2 incidents are completely different. The missile launched from the Vincennes was intentionally targeted at the aircraft, and if account from the CO is to be believed, it was fired as a defensive action as the aircraft had not identified itself and and the Vincennes didn't pick up any IFF; despite the tragic circumstances, the launch was not an accident. A tragic mistake? Quite probably. Deliberately malicious? Doubtful but possible. But an accident? no.

In this instance, Iran hasn't even acknowledged there was a missile launch, as of yet, even though there's clearly video of it.

Edit:

Just to clarify, when you say "accidental launch", something would happen for a missile to take off unintentionally like a malfunction. I say I doubt it was an accident because, going back to the Vincennes, being very familiar with CIC operations on cruisers and destroyers, VLS can't even be armed without the duty weapons officer having the launch key inserted and turned. Other than operating in a war theater, the key is inserted but not turned in potentially hostile areas. Even then, while missiles can be launched without a target, guidance systems would still need to know where to send it. So in that instance, the aircraft would have to have been targeted for the missile to take it down. So no one tripped and hit the launch button on accident.

I suspect a similar situation would have to taken place with the crew that launched the missile in Iran.

[pjknibbs]

It's entirely possible the situation is the same, though--e.g. Iran did not realise it was a civilian airliner they were shooting at. We simply don't know, and as I said earlier, I doubt Iran is going to admit responsibility even if they *did* accidentally shoot the thing down. It wouldn't suit their narrative of being the injured party thoughout this situation, for a start.

[Chips]

So you're saying the American shooting down of the Iranian plane back in 1988 was entirely deliberate, then?

It was entirely deliberate. They locked on and fired a missile at it - that's not an accident!

What was an accident is that it was a civilian aircraft not a military one. How on earth they got it wrong when transponders are supposed to prevent this from happening is something beyond my knowledge. I'd be guessing it was most likely human error influenced significantly by poor training / over eagerness for action - but without any foundation of truth as I have no idea. Same for this incident (unless there's a degree of automation these days?). The one I never understood was the Russians shooting down the flight from Alaska - as it was a bloody fighter that shot it down. Not like it couldn't A) Outrun it to identify it, B) Visually identify it... that was just murder by the fighter pilot.

Remember I even thought that they had intentionally brought down that passenger plane themselves and I am still not 100% convinced that they didn't do it.

Wait, what? I mean... I... what?

Don't blame "that's where things are at the moment" - blame yourself for thinking it. It's your mind that came up with that lunacy and still believes they *may* - no-one else. That's properly messed up and infers far more about your level of hate for the US admin than actual grounds for truth. Come on... seriously.

[Vertigo 7]

The thing is, though, where the missile came from is poised to defend the airport. According to the NYT, that facility tracks all aircraft that leave the airport. The plane had only been in flight for what, 10 minutes?

I dunno man, like I said. I wanna see what the investigations turn up. I'll buy it was a mistake, if that's where the evidence goes. But I'm not gonna accept Trump, of all people, calling it an accident. I doubt someone spilled coffee on the launch console and it just happened to fire a missile that just happened to target that plane. Someone chose to fire it, I don't doubt that. Whether they did so based on bad data, or they did so because there was someone on that plane they wanted taken out, that's really the question that needs to be answered.

[fiksal]

I think that believing a democratic nation such as the USA *intentionally* brought down a civilian airliner that could well contain some of its own people as well as those of allied and neutral nations (which in the latter cases it did) is taking healthy scepticism and credibility of intent far too far.

Well, I don't think anyone is actually accusing Iran of having deliberately brought down the plane, although they generally think they might have *accidentally* shot it down. As far as accidental downing of planes is concerned, the US does have prior form in that regard:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

My own opinion is that this was totally Iran accidentally shooting down the plane, but they're never likely to admit that!

I am thinking of people who pulled the trigger on the system. Accidental or not, they should do whatever life sentence x 180 people is in Iran.

[felter]

So what was it yesterday they had an intel meeting to discus the reasoning and legality for the murder of Qasem Soleimani where the senators with probably the highest level of security clearance were told that they couldn't be told why they had murdered Qasem Soleimani only that they had specific information on an imminent threat but they could not tell those Senators what the threat was. So today Trump goes onto Fox news and tells them:

"I can reveal that I believe it probably would've been four embassies."

Meaning that Qasem Soleimani was going to personally attack or get others to attack 4 US Embassies in his stead, but at the time of his murder he was on a a peace talk mission with the Iraq's and Saudi's, or is Trump saying he was arranging for the Iraq's and Saudi's to attack those embassies. I mean come-on the information was to sensitive for senators but yet he can tell fox news and the rest of the world the next day also no evidence of any kind has been shown that any of this was going to happen.

There is some information that the reason the murder of Qasem Soleimani happened, was that Trump was given a list of actions that could be taken against Iran with the most extreme option on the list being the murder of Qasem Soleimani, which no one thought that Trump would pick the most extreme option. So in the end it came down to eenie meenie minie moe, kill that guy. Which sounds about right for Trump.

Also lets talk about the moan that he has said he deserves the Nobel peace prize not Abiy Ahmed it was him that saved the country not Abiy Ahmed and he says this after murdering someone and can't figure out why he doesn't get the award. He will never get a Nobel peace award, as he has caused far too much death and destruction to countless people from many parts of the world.

[Masterbagger]

So what was it yesterday they had an intel meeting to discus the reasoning and legality for the murder of Qasem Soleimani where the senators with probably the highest level of security clearance were told that they couldn't be told why they had murdered Qasem Soleimani only that they had specific information on an imminent threat but they could not tell those Senators what the threat was. So today Trump goes onto Fox news and tells them:

"I can reveal that I believe it probably would've been four embassies."

Meaning that Qasem Soleimani was going to personally attack or get others to attack 4 US Embassies in his stead, but at the time of his murder he was on a a peace talk mission with the Iraq's and Saudi's, or is Trump saying he was arranging for the Iraq's and Saudi's to attack those embassies. I mean come-on the information was to sensitive for senators but yet he can tell fox news and the rest of the world the next day also no evidence of any kind has been shown that any of this was going to happen.

There is some information that the reason the murder of Qasem Soleimani happened, was that Trump was given a list of actions that could be taken against Iran with the most extreme option on the list being the murder of Qasem Soleimani, which no one thought that Trump would pick the most extreme option. So in the end it came down to eenie meenie minie moe, kill that guy. Which sounds about right for Trump.

Also lets talk about the moan that he has said he deserves the Nobel peace prize not Abiy Ahmed it was him that saved the country not Abiy Ahmed and he says this after murdering someone and can't figure out why he doesn't get the award. He will never get a Nobel peace award, as he has caused far too much death and destruction to countless people from many parts of the world.

Salamiman was a terrorist. I am not hearing that get spoken enough. From what involuntary exposure I get to the propaganda arm of the dems that is most of our media I hear Salamiman get called a general or an official. He may have been those things but first he was a terrorist. It isn't murder when you kill a terrorist doing terrorist things. He was not an ambassador or involved in any kind of peaceful mission. He was a murdering thug with decades of evil behind him and now he is not going to do that ever again. It wasn't murder when al-baghdadi offed himself out of fear of an American dog. It wasn't murder when a cowering bin laden was shot in the face. All of these things were the product of good people acting to prevent evil from continuing. The only difference today is that Trump derangement is a very real illness in America and around the world. I am watching it manifest as a defense of terrorist scum and a defense of a terrorist state because it allows the sufferers to gripe about President Trump.

Speaking of the nobel prize it was given to a president that went on to drone strike more terrorists than anyone else in history in multiple countries, destroy Libya, and allow the rise of ISIS. President Trump has been tame by comparison. Today he has shown more restraint than I would ever be capable of. I wanted every Iranian missile to be answered with one of our own. I'm tired of being tolerant with Iran. It costs us too much in the long run. It is very definite reality that eventually Iran will have to be stopped.

I am thinking of people who pulled the trigger on the system. Accidental or not, they should do whatever life sentence x 180 people is in Iran.

I think Iran doesn't imprison people for life and instead just kills them. I am guessing that murdering 180 people in an airliner would result in the same sentence there for being gay or women who go out in public without a male escort.

[RegisterMe]

So, umm, about those WMDs?

[felter]

I'm sorry but I can't find any evidence that he was a terrorist, apart from the sayings of the American government. I cannot find any evidence directly linking him to any terrorist acts, there is not evidence that he was going to commit any kind of terrorist act. He did have ties to certain groups but I don't count them as terrorist either, I think on them more of being terrorised by the likes of America. The only people I can tell saying he was a terrorist was America, and we all know that you cannot trust the words of an American government, especially their current one. so once again show me the evidence, I bet you can't seeing as Trump and his cohorts can't even show that to their own senators. I honestly do not think he was a terrorist, I think Donald Trump is more of a terrorist than he ever was.

[Masterbagger]

I'm sorry but I can't find any evidence that he was a terrorist, apart from the sayings of the American government. I cannot find any evidence directly linking him to any terrorist acts, there is not evidence that he was going to commit any kind of terrorist act. He did have ties to certain groups but I don't count them as terrorist either, I think on them more of being terrorised by the likes of America. The only people I can tell saying he was a terrorist was America, and we all know that you cannot trust the words of an American government, especially their current one. so once again show me the evidence, I bet you can't seeing as Trump and his cohorts can't even show that to their own senators. I honestly do not think he was a terrorist, I think Donald Trump is more of a terrorist than he ever was.

10 years ago I was using roads in Afghanistan. I knew there were IEDs. I was there when the use of humvees was forbidden to US forces because they could not withstand an IED strike. If that happened the occupants of that vehicle were dead and the rest of the patrol was recovering their remains. The torso stayed intact because of the vests everyone wore but the limbs got separated. Afghan IEDs were different in that they weren't preexisting explosive ordinance rigged to detonate but homemade explosives buried in huge quantities. We stopped using vehicles that could not withstand those blasts but the Afghan forces could not. The terrorists there then targeted the Afghans. They got blown up and it was a mess every time. The human head should not turn 180 degrees on its mounting. It can if you blow it up just enough where it turns but doesn't get detached.

The humvees were already going out of style because even the armored ones lacked the protection of an MRAP vehicle. Those things were so much more massive but had an armored plate underneath that deflected blasts outwards from the compartment that held the driver and passengers. An IED strike on an MRAP resulted in damage to the vehicle. The tire would get blown off, sometimes the vehicle would roll or flip, and sometimes the crew would get concussions or other injuries from getting thrown around like that. The blast would not penetrate the vehicle. There were multiple types of MRAP in that theater. The one I drove was called a MATV. Do a google image search on it. It was a big ballsy vehicle. I remember driving through fields of grass as high as a man because the roads were so risky that offroad was the safest option. The marijuana fields the Afghans grew were beyond my ability to describe. They were majestic in their way.

The point of this story is that I was not in great life threatening danger from Afghan IEDs. What I was cautioned about was shaped charge warheads that could penetrate our armor. They were called EFPs. The technology goes back to World War II and uses explosives to form a jet of molten copper that can pierce armor to injure and kill the crew behind that armor. Afghans were not sophisticated enough to make weapons that could do that on their own. That threat came from Iran. From terrorists like Salamiman. I'm glad that scumbag is dead. He didn't hurt me but it wasn't for lack of trying. Screw him. I did see that they carted that scumbags remains through Iran on the hood of a Chevy truck. Should not have happened. Iran does not deserve good trucks and I say that as a Ford man.

I dug this up for you. It wasn't President Trump that designated Salamiman as a terrorist. It was the regime of the weakest president in American history that did it.

https://www.treasury.gov/press-center/p ... g1320.aspx

10/11/2011 WASHINGTON – The U.S. Department of the Treasury today announced the designation of five individuals, including four senior Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps-Qods Force (IRGC-QF) officers connected to a plot to assassinate the Saudi Arabian Ambassador to the United States Adel Al-Jubeir, while he was in the United States and to carry out follow-on attacks against other countries’ interests inside the United States and in another country. As part of today’s action, Treasury also designated the individual responsible for arranging the assassination plot on behalf of the IRGC-QF.

Qasem Soleimani
As IRGC-QF Commander, Qasem Soleimani oversees the IRGC-QF officers who were involved in this plot. Soleimani was previously designated by the Treasury Department under E.O. 13382 based on his relationship to the IRGC. He was also designated in May 2011 pursuant to E.O. 13572, which targets human rights abuses in Syria, for his role as the Commander of the IRGC-QF, the primary conduit for Iran's support to the Syrian General Intelligence Directorate (GID).

Does that do anything to break through the Trump derangement you suffer from? Salamiman was on obama's kill list tool. The only difference is that Trump pulled the trigger and you already hated him. You suffer Trump derangement so badly you can't see what you are doing anymore. Salamiman was scum. If obama had droned that piece of shit and I would have praised him for doing it. He didn't and Trump did. Blind hatred of Trump is ridiculous when it is about killing a terrorist.

[Vertigo 7]

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/iran-con ... c621dec27d

Iran has admitted to shooting down the plane, blaming human error. No details on how the error was made at this point.

[Vertigo 7]

I'm sorry but I can't find any evidence that he was a terrorist, apart from the sayings of the American government. I cannot find any evidence directly linking him to any terrorist acts, there is not evidence that he was going to commit any kind of terrorist act. He did have ties to certain groups but I don't count them as terrorist either, I think on them more of being terrorised by the likes of America. The only people I can tell saying he was a terrorist was America, and we all know that you cannot trust the words of an American government, especially their current one. so once again show me the evidence, I bet you can't seeing as Trump and his cohorts can't even show that to their own senators. I honestly do not think he was a terrorist, I think Donald Trump is more of a terrorist than he ever was.

Well the current state of the Republican party is certainly worthy of being designated as a hate group, and they've been slowly pushing the boundaries of being designated as a domestic terrorist group for a while. The ignorance of these "people" has been hard wired since the founding of the US.

If you look at the course of history of the US, there has been so much racial prejudice that started with the indiscriminate slaughter of Native Americans to colonize and expand west. Meanwhile, the whole slavery thing was becoming mainstream and the resulting civil war. Fast forward a bit to WW2 and after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, Japanese Americans were being rounded up and imprisoned without charge. Then, after 9/11, Islamophobia has gripped parts of the country. All of these forces have diminished, a bit, but have slowly migrated and consolidated within the republican party over the last 2 centuries and Trump is most definitely doing his part to keep it alive.

[Chips]

I'm sorry but I can't find any evidence that he was a terrorist, apart from the sayings of the American government. I cannot find any evidence directly linking him to any terrorist acts, there is not evidence that he was going to commit any kind of terrorist act. He did have ties to certain groups but I don't count them as terrorist either, I think on them more of being terrorised by the likes of America. The only people I can tell saying he was a terrorist was America, and we all know that you cannot trust the words of an American government, especially their current one. so once again show me the evidence, I bet you can't seeing as Trump and his cohorts can't even show that to their own senators. I honestly do not think he was a terrorist, I think Donald Trump is more of a terrorist than he ever was.

The QUDS force was designated a terrorist organisation in 2007 by the US Department of the Treasury. He was in charge of said force. I'm unsure what you need to persuade you, other than suddenly be privvy to all the information held by the world's intelligence agencies? Just read wikipedia - i know, it's not intelligence source is it. But what it does is present a fairly concise view of what's been alleged or proven with sources. Go ahead and read what they are responsible for... I've highlighted a few previously.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quds_Force

Look at who they're affiliated (support) as well, and cross reference that with known terrorist organisations - here's the UK's list of terrorist organisations, which isn't too long to look through https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... n__SG_.pdf . They provide training, funding, materials to terror organisations. I entirely disagree with Masterbagger calling Iran itself a terrorist country. It isn't. Not remotely. That sort of language is unacceptable.

Asked before about evidence he was in Iraq to broker a peace negotiation (note that Saudi Arabia designate QUDS a terrorist organisation as well). Where did that news come from as not seen a reference to it in main stream media, but maybe I missed it or skipped that detail when scanning through articles. It happens.

I could only imagine the sticking point is that to take the action they did should require proving he was (literally) ordering attacks to occur. That's a fair point - and it is questionable whether they have evidence to support that action or not. That does underpin whether the actions taken were legal or not in the eyes of the world.

However, given your posting over the last week or so, I can't help but think it's mainly influenced by hate for Trump. I mean you bashed on about who is a "valid target" and so on - including his son. These aren't thoughts you should be considering as "legitimate". Criticise, ok. But to suggest what they should do in retaliation, or what you think is proportional? Some real issues going on.

Anyway, now that Iran has admitted being responsible... I notice they still try to pin blame on the US for Iran's action. It's Trump's fault they shot down a passenger jet, murdering (your term) hundreds of people by missile in their own country I guess the difference is (ignoring the huge number of extra casualties) the US intentionally blew up the General chap in another country, whereas Iran intentionally blew up hundreds in their own country. I'm sure they didn't intend to kill civilians, but they did intend the launch that did. Do you want to start listing "legitimate" family members of Iranians for the Canadians, Ukrainians and other nations to off? (being sarcastic to highlight how ridiculous some previous posts read).

To be absolutely clear - there are very valid questions, concerns, criticisms of what was done and the legality of it flying around in the media and obviously being expressed by yourself and others too here. That's fine, no issues with that. Just trying to point out that going overboard, "legitimate targets" being listed with hopes they take actions, while instantly dismissing anything from a country as "propaganda" - yet appearing to then blindly believe (or create) propaganda going the other way, is really undermining everything.

[RegisterMe]

I don't disagree with Masterbagger or Chips' assessment of Soleimani or the Qud's force in the their posts above, but I do think it's worth pointing out that the US has been an adversary of Iran for the last 40 odd years.

[Mightysword]

Feel people just want to read into this too much. I wouldn't say incident like this is rare or unheard off. Technology is only as good as its operator, it's not a fool proof. Saying "it can't be wrong because it's radar!" is just naive assumption:

- Did we forget a similar thing happen not too long ago when Ukrainian rebels shot down a civilian ariliner using a Russian made SAM?
- Part of the reason the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor worked back then because the radar operators mistook the swarm of Japanese fighters.

My guess on this Iran's force was probably put on high alert after their cruise missile attack expecting American retaliation. The missile was probably fired by an edgy operator thinking it's a response attack.

However, given your posting over the last week or so, I can't help but think it's mainly influenced by hate for Trump.
...

Anyway, now that Iran has admitted being responsible... I notice they still try to pin blame on the US for Iran's action. It's Trump's fault they shot down a passenger jet, murdering (your term) hundreds of people by missile in their own country I guess the difference is (ignoring the huge number of extra casualties) the US intentionally blew up the General chap in another country, whereas Iran intentionally blew up hundreds in their own country. I'm sure they didn't intend to kill civilians, but they did intend the launch that did. Do you want to start listing "legitimate" family members of Iranians for the Canadians, Ukrainians and other nations to off? (being sarcastic to highlight how ridiculous some previous posts read).

I have a fair idea where that came from, or maybe it's just people with the same prejudice tend to think the same. Just yesterday an "expert analysis" on CNN used the word 'crossfire' to describe this incident, pretty much in an effort to cling Trump's responsibility on it. She (the anyalysis) got a lot of flak for it. If you follow the CNN's timeline again today you can see they still try to double down on it. But am I surprised to see this? No, just like how you see it here as a trend for certain posters, it has been pretty much the same trend for certain media outlets. People are willing to cut their nose to spite their faces. Certain segment of the US media in order to fill their agenda about Trump, it feels they forgot they are American themselves.