Trump

[Vertigo 7]

This is one of many reasons why I don't believe Trump's actions are anything more than for personal benefit and has 0 interest in justice, but it's a big one. When Anne Sacoolas killed Harry Dunn and fled the UK, Trump did not take steps to see that she faced a trial or any consequences for her actions. Whether accidental or not, a UK citizen lost his life due to the actions of an American citizen. Tell me why one US contractor is worth more than one UK teenager?

[felter]

So trump announces he murdered another human being to prevent a war from happening,

Consequences: his actions bring war one step closer than it ever has been with Iran. While announcing that he did it to stop a war, he later goes on to also announce that he is sending an extra 3000 troops to the region, not exactly a peaceful thing to have to do, especially after announcing you did it to stop a war. Countries from all over the world have to pull out their civilians from the region, and advise everyone not to travel to the region, as they cannot protect them from being killed in retaliation. Meanwhile the Iraqi Government votes to throw all foreign military stationed in Iraq fighting IS out of Iraq, which Trump has already stated IS no longer exist that he has personally killed them all, but they are still fighting them, well were, as they have had to put on hold any kind of confrontations due to what is happening. Iraq also makes an official complaint to the UN that the US has broken international law and any agreement they had with the Iraqi Government. It also transpires that the reason that Qasem Soleimani was in Iraq, was due to talks between Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia where it was looking like the 3 countries were getting along and probably heading towards peaceful co-operation between the 3 of them. Final consequence so far, Iran has announced that it is once again started development on nuclear weapons, something they have not done since the agreement they made with many countries and that Trump binned because he didn't like that it was a black man that help gain that agreement.

And he did it to stop a war, me I think he did it to stop peace in the region, as peace between Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia is not in either his or Americas best interest.

[Alan Phipps]

"I think he did it to stop peace in the region, as peace between Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia is not in either his or Americas best interest."

I feel that there was little credible evidence of quite such a peace breaking out in that area even before the strike, regardless of my personal opinions regarding the merit and legality of the strike itself.

As has been proven so many times in other relatively recent international campaigns, heightened external threat/conflict is often a good diversion for avoiding too much public scrutiny of uncomfortable domestic issues as well as being a good opportunity for the masking or rationalising of parallel or subsequent initiatives.

[felter]

Most certainly wasn't to step a war or create peace, that much is a certainty.

[RegisterMe]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51001167

Who would have thunk it?

[Santi]

It cannot be denied that Iran and the USA has been on a path to conflict for many years now. The incidents between the two countries are too numerous to list, but one thing is clear, they have escalate recently with either side not showing any signs of stepping them down.

This is to be taken within the struggles for influence by numerous countries in the Middle East, USA strike on Qasem Soleimani the person behind Iranian influence expansion on Syria, Yemen, Lebanon and Iraq, and Abu Mahdi al Muhandis, second in command of the Iranian supported Iraqi Shia militias, it is definitely raising the odds for direct conflict. But Trump does not have much room to manoeuvre, if the USA leaves Iraq we will have the whole "leaving our allies", "country now in the hands of Iran/ISIS" etc.

So he is playing to his supporters, America great again! And hitting Iran as hard as he can. I do not think it does have much to do with reelection, it is more to do with cultivativating a image of a leader that defends America, and supports his soldiers and will retaliate when either of them are being attacked. And you like it or not, that is a quite popular attitude. And one, that in a way, you cannot fault.

[Chips]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51001167

Who would have thunk it?

Inevitable anyway if looking at the original deal, the reasons the US suddenly withdrew and reimplemented sanctions, how Iran pressured the European nations to find ways around the trade bans to keep them at the table etc.

In other words - this may have accelerated it by a few months/year(s), but it was going to happen.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... -sanctions

Lets not pretend - Iran has previously enriched Uranium way beyond commercial nuclear power requirements and in the above article it indicates they intended to do so from July last year onwards too. Their intent is peaceful?

[Santi]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51001167

Who would have thunk it?

They have been milking it out for a very long time now. Iran already has the nuclear bomb or enough material to build one in a very short time. They did not stalled for years in the negotiation to get better terms, you do not pour that amount of money and effort into something that will guarantee you a place among those countries with a nuclear deterrent to just throw it away, not when Israel and America have it.

[RegisterMe]

@Chips, @Santi, I am no fan of the Islamic Republic of Iran. No fan at all. Nor am I a fan of Qasem Soleimani. He has plenty of blood on his hands, some it my friends' (or their staff, or their family, or their people, you get the idea....).

Did I think this was coming? hhmmm maybe, with the idiots in charge on both sides I thought something was likely to happen. Did I think the US would assassinate a state employee of another country, without a declaration of war? No. I did not. Did I think they would execute that, without permission, on another country's territory? No. I did not.

I'm in two minds. On the one hand there's a piece of me that thinks that Trump is doing this for Trumpian reasons. Any part of this that is "true" with regard to that I loathe. On the other hand there's a piece of me that thinks that the US has, rightly, had enough of "asymmetric warfare conducted by national states" (to whit Russia, China, and lesser to whit Iran... and maybe others too, some of them "friends"). A big up stick to particular heads will, in those circumstances, be compelling.

But nah, it's Trump. It's about the size of his hands and his chances of re-election.

And it's tragic. My love to all those who are going to have to stand in the line of fire because of it.

China's keeping very quiet. I wonder why that is

[Chips]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_murders_of_Iran

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quds_Force

"On 11 October 2011, the Obama Administration revealed the United States Government's allegations that the Quds Force was involved with the plot to assassinate Saudi Arabia's Ambassador to the United States Adel al-Jubeir, which also entailed plans to bomb the Israeli and Saudi embassies located in Washington, D.C."

The only difference is that the US has used a drone and then said they did it. If they'd denied anything (like Russia does ) or provided training/planning/means/method to a local group (for deniability) then...

Just to be clear, not saying what was done is right. However, do you think Trump said "lets kill this guy"? He's at the top and would have given the okay - of that I'm positive, but actually picking him as a target?

I've no doubt the difference between Trump and other presidents is that Trump says yes when others would say "no!" - that probably influenced whether it was brought up or not, let alone authorised.
Well, I'm assuming this was a recommended action as I just can't envisage Trump, who has a passing relationship with details/truth, paying enough attention during reports and coming up with the ideas and plans behind all diplomatic and other lines... I'm fairly sure they've done risk assessments and so on about the potential outcome of killing this guy way in advance - it's just there's variables outside their control that may influence how things develop. One of those variables outside their control *is* Trump >.<

[RegisterMe]

Just.... nobody mention that there were more people at Soleimani's funeral than were at Trump's inauguration ok?

[Vertigo 7]

The guy is off his f'n rocker anyway... he's spent the last 3 years doing everything he can to discredit our intelligence agencies but he's going to start a war? Who is he going to rely on for intel? Russia?

[fiksal]

Just.... nobody mention that there were more people at Soleimani's funeral than were at Trump's inauguration ok?

No, is it true?


So besides the great deal that Trump was going to negotiate with Iran, that no-one is surprised hadnt happened,
he apparently wants to bomb some civilians, just for fun?
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/05/world/tr ... index.html

[Vertigo 7]

So besides the great deal that Trump was going to negotiate with Iran, that no-one is surprised hadnt happened,
he apparently wants to bomb some civilians, just for fun?
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/05/world/tr ... index.html

Ohh, indiscriminately killing Muslims now... I'm sure the Trumpanzies will love that.

[fiksal]

So besides the great deal that Trump was going to negotiate with Iran, that no-one is surprised hadnt happened,
he apparently wants to bomb some civilians, just for fun?
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/05/world/tr ... index.html

Ohh, indiscriminately killing Muslims now... I'm sure the Trumpanzies will love that.

I dont doubt they'll defend bombing civilians.

I am half expecting 9/11 chants to start already on the Republican mainstream media.

[felter]

Just.... nobody mention that there were more people at Soleimani's funeral than were at Trump's inauguration ok?

No, is it true?


So besides the great deal that Trump was going to negotiate with Iran, that no-one is surprised hadnt happened,
he apparently wants to bomb some civilians, just for fun?
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/05/world/tr ... index.html

The hypocrisy is astounding, they talk about holding Iran accountable for their actions but yet I will point out once again, there is no difference from what Iran is doing and what America is doing and has been doing for years. So who is holding America accountable for the atrocities they have committed, not just to Iran but countless countries and people of those countless countries. If state sponsored murder is okay, if you don't agree with someone then it is now okay to murder them. Trump is now a prime target if you use the justification America is using. But it is wrong, any kind of state sponsored murder is just plain wrong, no matter who the target is. America but more importantly Donald trump, should be charged with murder because that is what they have done, they are just plain ordinary murderers and should be held accountable for any of the murders they have committed, just like anyone else would be. Normalising state sponsored murder like is being done here, where does it stop, when is it to far who decides who it is okay to murder with impunity, if it is okay why is no one killing Putin, Xi Jinping, Donald Trump or even Johnson. With what America has done and the excuses they are using to justify it they are all eligible for assassination without any kind of accountability for their assassinations. It's a slippery slope they have created, as now any country can kill someone from another country, they just have to say we did it for national security, and it makes it okay. This is why civilised countries do not do these types of things, anyone with half a brain cell would know it is wrong and that it will only cause anarchy and chaos further down the line.

[fiksal]

We already have a way for when one nation can kill someone from another. It's called - war.

This is how wars work. This is how one starts war when one wants war.

[Grim Lock]

Well it is definitely another step towards war in the middle east, wasn't it just a couple of months ago when Trump without informing it's allies pulled out US troops in Turkey/syria, and didn't the Trumpians then go, hell we've got no business beeing there sacrificing Americans in tribal-disputes that we don't care about. Yet now suddenly it's totally ok to get involved in another one, sending troops is ok, and escalating it into a war, that will eventually mean American intervention again is a good thing too.

Goddamnit,, make up your freakin mind, and if you do, please notify your allies of your stupid plans.

[Vertigo 7]

Trump takes a crap, his fanbois cheer and want to take a picture. You can't fix stupid. Besides, anything that results in the death of someone that's not white is a win for the Trumpanzies.

[CBJ]

Can we keep this discussion above the level of childish name-calling please? It's hard enough as it is to keep a civilised discussion going on a topic like this given the high levels of personal feeling involved, and name-calling adds nothing to the debate.